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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:35 AM   #101
Tech198
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You are in the bin

Another "non-repairable" device simply means, out with the old, in with the new....

....A throw away device.......... Is that what the future holds ?

Makes you wonder why manufactures do this even though they re-assue their customers "because we don't want you to be fixing it".....

..The REAL reason is .. "Because we want you to buy a new one."

Its all about $$$ ..... not being un-repairable. Doesn't matter how small something is, you can DIY...

Its manufactures "prevent" not being repairable, but sticking heaps of glue or something..

Just give us want we want....
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:36 AM   #102
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Just wait until ifixit gets ahold of the tiny internals of the iWatch...can they give scores of 0.5?
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:59 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mac21ND View Post
One of the key points to remember about this story is the difference between "repairability" and "upgradeability."

Both the iPad and Surface tablets are difficult to repair on your own. However, you could argue the Surface should score higher because of it's IO ports: SD card slot, USB 3 port, and display port.

I don't care for the Surface, but there are times I wish I had an SD card slot in my iPad. (The SD 'photo' adapter doesn't count if I want to use actually storage like I would on a normal computer.)
Why would a device score higher in repairability based on tech specs? It's about how much glue and screws and time it takes to open them and repair them, nothing else.

The score for those would be in a overall iPad vs Surface review/comparison. Then those would come into play.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:03 AM   #104
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Who cares? Let MS fix it.

Microsoft sells a $99 extended warranty for the Surface that even covers ACCIDENTAL mishaps. Compare that to AppleCare.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 10:06 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mystic386 View Post
I checked those tear downs before I made the comment.

Designs a visual thing and an opinion. Seems we have different views. I do believe MS need to seriously lift their act. You think that's not the case.

I think Samsung have a far better grasp on reality than MS do.
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, are we talking only about the main logic board? Or is there something else that I'm simply not seeing? Because take away the logic board and the rest of the teardowns are virtually identical. There's a bezel, a touch screen, a battery, a fan or two for the Surface Pro and MacBook Air, and a couple of ribbon cables. And that's about it.

I'll grant that the Surface Pro pictures look a lot messier, with what appear to be black burn marks all over it, but I figure that's from the heat gun and the "tar-like adhesive" (which was also used in the iPads!).

I can agree with you that the Surface logic board looks a lot sparser and maybe "less elegant" than the Apple ones, but another poster a few pages back posited that perhaps the components were intentionally spaced out to aid in cooling.

I don't disagree with what you say about Microsoft. I do think they have lost their way in recent years, becoming too complacent and relying on sales from Office and Windows OS licenses to keep afloat while they try and fail to stay relevant. The Zune was a disaster. Vista was a disaster. XBOX360 is popular but only in spite of its constant hardware issues. Steve Ballmer is a constant embarrassment almost every time he opens his mouth.

But, maybe they're turning around. Windows 8 is actually pretty decent. The Surface RT has flaws (and Surface Pro even more so) but there are some glimmers of a really good thing, if they take it in the right direction, the "rev B" or "rev C" Surface could actually be very interesting.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 10:07 AM   #106
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The display on the Surface is optically bonded (improving its digitizer accuracy as well,) which by definition means its glued-- with 'optical-grade adhesive.' The rest of the glue just seems like a f* it moment.

Quote:
What is Optical Bonding?

Optical Bonding is the use of an optical-grade adhesive to glue a glass to the top surface of a display. The main goal of optical
bonding is to improve the display performance by eliminating the air gap between the cover glass and the display thereby reducing
internal reflections and improving display contrast.


What are the key benefits of Optical Bonding?

Improved Viewability - Optical bonding delivers increased contrast and color brightness which improves display performance, particularly in bright environments.

Protection - Optical bonded cover glass acts to protect the fragile surface of the LCD against damage from rough use, vandalism or weather.

Shock and Vibration - Optical bonding strengthens the overall display structure improving robustness and reliability in harsh applications.

Sealed Display - Since there is no air gap between the display and the cover glass, the display is sealed against condensation and dust.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 10:13 AM   #107
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One thing to say here: who the F has ANY need whatsoever to upgrade or get at the insides of a tablet PC?

It's been the same way for YEARS with notebook PC's as well. Very minimal if any upgrade path outside of swapping HDD/SSD's and sometimes RAM. However, neither of these are an issue whatsoever and you're also forgetting the form factor.

I for one like the slimness and portability of you guessed it: a portable device. If you want to tinker, play and upgrade you're looking at the wrong product (go buy a desktop PC).

Complaining about lack of repairability in these devices just makes you look like an utter fool.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 10:17 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech198 View Post
..The REAL reason is .. "Because we want you to buy a new one."

Its all about $$$ ..... not being un-repairable. Doesn't matter how small something is, you can DIY...
I agree. But how many people actually do?

I used to build my own desktop tower PCs from scratch -- the ultimate in DIY repairability. I always built them so I could upgrade parts later. But by the time I was ready to, new technology always superseded everything. For example, I once built a machine using an AMD Slot A processor. By the time I was ready for a new CPU, they had moved on to Socket A. So I need a new motherboard too. And the RAM it used was different, so I needed to buy new RAM too. At this point, might as well just buy a whole new computer.

Same with laptops. Example: I specifically bought my 2007 MacBook Pro because it was the last model Apple sold with a user-replaceable battery. I laughed at all you folks buying into the unibody MBPs. "Just wait until you need battery replacements!".

Well, it's 6 years later, guess how many replacement batteries I've bought for my MBP? That's right, none. Zero. Still going strong. Sooner or later I will need to replace the battery in this thing. By then, it'll be time for a new MBP or MBA, don't you think?

Build the thing to last, and it won't matter so much if it's designed to be "disposable" afterward. It's the disposable AND cheap goods that you need to worry about.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 10:26 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chorner View Post
One thing to say here: who the F has ANY need whatsoever to upgrade or get at the insides of a tablet PC?

It's been the same way for YEARS with notebook PC's as well. Very minimal if any upgrade path outside of swapping HDD/SSD's and sometimes RAM. However, neither of these are an issue whatsoever and you're also forgetting the form factor.

I for one like the slimness and portability of you guessed it: a portable device. If you want to tinker, play and upgrade you're looking at the wrong product (go buy a desktop PC).

Complaining about lack of repairability in these devices just makes you look like an utter fool.
The surface pro is an x86 PC so it would be useful if it were upgradable. That SSD sure looks like a 1.8" drive without the case. What if I'd like to change the battery if it dies?
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 12:49 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by antonis View Post
Indeed in 15 years from now internal parts will look totally different, but mind also that this evolution is not analogue. The space required is reduced, but so is the ability to make these parts smaller and smaller.

Sooner or later there won't be any real reason to make any device smaller or thinner as they won't be usable by humans.

In other words, these devices (and their internals) are becoming smaller as time passes by, but our hands and fingers are not
Not really. Eventually we won't be using hands or fingers (or eyes) to interact with our computers - we'll use our minds. Give it a few decades and we'll all be running around with chips in our heads.

I do think that 'disposable' computers are going to be the norm from now on. Which sucks, but hey, whatever.
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 03:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Seems to me its Microsoft and MS fans who insist on calling the Surface a tablet and get offended when others refer to it as a laptop. I don't think of it as a tablet because a)awful battery life for a tablet, b)requires a fan and c)is rarely ever shown being used without the keyboard or in portrait orientation. To me it has all the trademarks of a laptop except the guts are behind the screen not the keyboard.
Wen we point out that it's only ever shown being used as a laptop MSFT shills yell that it's a "tablet".
When we point out that their "tablet" has moving parts like a regular computer (it actually has fans in it!) MSFT shills then compare their "tablet" to a full blown laptop computer saying, "well such and such Macbook has fans too".
Then, when you bring up these 2 inconsistent points they qualify the inconsistency with "it's the best of both worlds".

Yeesh, seriously? It's like arguing with a hipster progressive who qualifies everything bad that's happened the past 5 years with "it's all still Bush's fault".
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 05:06 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Mystic386 View Post
Comparing an iPad teardown and this says a lot about the two companies. There is an elegance that permeates the iPad and apple products. The whole product is designed. MS have pulled together a bunch of parts and fitted it in the box.

Apple is open about what it does. A blind man can see what they do well. MS is completely oblivious to each aspect. The MS tablet looks like it was taken for a run through the mediocre forest and hit every tree on the way through.

Comparing to an Air - I have an Air. Excluding the factor of connecting to the Apple system. If I look at all the important factors the MS tablet would score very low. It doesn't do the job well.

Comparing to an iPad - my wife is about to buy our first tablet. She's looking at the iPad. Excluding the Apple system when we look at all the factors that are important to her this MS tablet again scores poorly.

Apple needs competition. Sadly I don't think MS is it or ever will be. They're just too ignorant of customer needs, too ignorant of where the competition are at and caught up in their own reality distortion field. They look like Detroit when the motor industry changed in front of their eyes.

When I look at this product I see PC production values of a decade ago.

Steve Jobs Quote - says it best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOgOP_aqqtg

"The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste, they have absolutely no taste. And what that means is, I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way. In a sense, that they don't think of original ideas and they don't bring much culture into their products...


I guess I'm saddened not by Microsofts success. I have no problem with their success. They've earned their success, for the most part. I have a problem with the fact that they just make really 3rd grade products."
Did you even look at the product or did you just assume based on it being MS the product was gonna suck. What they designed was a huge step above OEM pieces of plastic that traditionally define Wintel machines. If anything the OEM's are gonna break from commoditized hardware design to compete on the Win8 platform now. No more sticking Win8 on $300 laptops w/out touchscreens like they've been doing. And MS is not even a hardware company, while those OEM's and Apple are.

When I look at the Surface, I see a pretty bold effort to elevate the quality of software that's run off a mobile device - giving you access to the x86 ecosystem as well as the proper inputs in a convertable form factor. Apple would rather give you a $800 piece of hardware that runs cheap crap commoditized software with $1 pricepoints. They'd rather you lug around a Bluetooth keyboard and poke the screen a million times in order to use productivity software like iWork that recycle desktop UI's. And when people complain about not being able to do "real work" on an iPad, Apple's solution is to throw storage at them instead of giving them actual productivity solutions, as if a larger hard drive is what they really wanted.

You guys really got blinders on
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:26 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by notjustjay View Post
I agree. But how many people actually do?

I used to build my own desktop tower PCs from scratch -- the ultimate in DIY repairability. I always built them so I could upgrade parts later. But by the time I was ready to, new technology always superseded everything. For example, I once built a machine using an AMD Slot A processor. By the time I was ready for a new CPU, they had moved on to Socket A. So I need a new motherboard too. And the RAM it used was different, so I needed to buy new RAM too. At this point, might as well just buy a whole new computer.

Same with laptops. Example: I specifically bought my 2007 MacBook Pro because it was the last model Apple sold with a user-replaceable battery. I laughed at all you folks buying into the unibody MBPs. "Just wait until you need battery replacements!".

Well, it's 6 years later, guess how many replacement batteries I've bought for my MBP? That's right, none. Zero. Still going strong. Sooner or later I will need to replace the battery in this thing. By then, it'll be time for a new MBP or MBA, don't you think?

Build the thing to last, and it won't matter so much if it's designed to be "disposable" afterward. It's the disposable AND cheap goods that you need to worry about.
Battery replacement is not a disposable laptop, it just needs a new battery, just like any anything.

6 years is different....... Thats a longer time, which you would think 6 years would be enough for any desktop/laptop. and yes. things don't stay in shops forever...... Plus, no one said you had to buy brand new... there's always second-hand.

I was more on "If this this WAS repairable, i wouldn't have to buy a new one within a 7 year timeframe i would have otherwise kept it for."
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 03:01 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by macs4nw View Post
5hr battery life? What inside that SurfacePro is chewing up so much power?
The current generation (Ivy Bridge) i5 processor. This is going to be a thing of the past soon, though. Haswell is going to be even more power-efficient, let alone future ASICs. OLED or IGZO also are lot more power-efficient, so screen power requirements should also go down in the future.

The first generation Surface Pro just shows how powerful a productivity device can be today, without worrying too much about the negatives. Itīs like a technology study from MS that they want to sell mass-market soon. Itīs only the first step.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 03:30 AM   #115
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The current generation (Ivy Bridge) i5 processor. This is going to be a thing of the past soon, though. Haswell is going to be even more power-efficient, let alone future ASICs. OLED or IGZO also are lot more power-efficient, so screen power requirements should also go down in the future.

The first generation Surface Pro just shows how powerful a productivity device can be today, without worrying too much about the negatives. Itīs like a technology study from MS that they want to sell mass-market soon. Itīs only the first step.
It that the reason why its not selling well.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 03:38 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Tech198 View Post
It that the reason why its not selling well.
Yes, because this device shows where they can offer something useful (for business people), but it doesnīt really get it right with regards to that. Itīs a device where there are great possibilities with x86/x64 software, but the hardware itself is just not there, yet.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 01:55 PM   #117
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Ok, this should be in UFixIt.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:42 PM   #118
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stop bashing MS

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Ok, this should be in UFixIt.
I used to have everything Apple, 2 apple tvs, several imacs, air, iphone, etc... Two years ago, I gave all that up. The reason being things stopped innovating and i felt my devices were no longer the "cool" have-it toys. I felt that Apple was trending more towards developing an ecosystem and less towards the experience.

The biggest gripe: when was the last time you saw the interface change?

Initially, when i converted to Windows, i was defensive. But Windows 7 is pretty good; it's pretty innovative, and really stable. you guys should try it.

I also think Mac users should be a little more lenient towards the surface. This is MS first take at it. It'll get better. It took the iPod several iterations before it looked like another. Just look at the early version of the iMacs, and you might be alarmed what they looked like then.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:14 PM   #119
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5hr battery life? What inside that SurfacePro is chewing up so much power?
The real hardware, not ARM hardware that performs like Desktop PCs from 12 years ago. The Macbook Air gets about the same battery life.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by macnerd93 View Post
I'm talking about the fact that Apple are able to make an entire the MacBook Airs logic board, about a quarter of the size of the one used here. They even did it back in 2008 on the original Air, so why couldn't Microsoft do it in 2013? This one takes up pretty much the whole inside of the machine.
You clearly know nothing about airflow, by spacing out the motherboard, and the chips on it, it allows for better cooling, the Surface pro is silent, where as a MacBook Air gets very very loud under load, its actually better engineered.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:16 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by easylost View Post
I used to have everything Apple, 2 apple tvs, several imacs, air, iphone, etc... Two years ago, I gave all that up. The reason being things stopped innovating and i felt my devices were no longer the "cool" have-it toys. I felt that Apple was trending more towards developing an ecosystem and less towards the experience.

The biggest gripe: when was the last time you saw the interface change?

Initially, when i converted to Windows, i was defensive. But Windows 7 is pretty good; it's pretty innovative, and really stable. you guys should try it.

I also think Mac users should be a little more lenient towards the surface. This is MS first take at it. It'll get better. It took the iPod several iterations before it looked like another. Just look at the early version of the iMacs, and you might be alarmed what they looked like then.
True. but there IS one different.

The iPad 1 sold well. When a first gen device doesn't sell well as you'd expect, then there is problems.

There are already reports of some people getting the Surface, with the man goal hacking the Start screen so it boots up to that, instead of the Metro style, because they don't wanna see it.

THIS, is my biggest concern... When people start... not 2 or 3, but most who bought the Surface, immediately start trying to get back the shel at boot, thats a big turn down.

So, you can say "it'll get better", an ya, it probably will, but Microsoft will have to to some BIG changes and win people over, because right now, its not working.


I used to use Windows too, and as much as I really wanna support Microsoft on this one, I can't for the reasons stated above.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 01:13 AM   #121
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I do think that 'disposable' computers are going to be the norm from now on. Which sucks, but hey, whatever.
I think it has been the norm for at least 15 years. Computers have long been throwaway devices, I think since 98. Technology advances at such a pace that you need to change your device every 2 or 3 years (5 years tops) in order to stay current. Upgrading a computer might increase its longevity by around 1-2 years but you would want to change you computer every 5 years anyways. I guess people who keep their computers for more than 5 years and don't own a more contemporary device comprise of a very insignificant % of the population - mostly people who can't afford buying a new one.

Having said that, I've had my 2010 i3 21.5 iMac for slightly more than 2 years and now I can't upgrade Aperture because it runs SL. They require me to install Mountain Lion first. But if I do this I'll have to buy more RAM because 4 GB won't be sufficient for the computer to operate smoothly. On the other hand, the i3 processor is still going strong for what I do. And there were a lot of people who at the end of 2010 claimed that 2GB RAM in MacBook Air would be more than sufficient. Voila! You see, 2 years later you can't run the OS with so little RAM.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 10:55 AM   #122
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The real hardware, not ARM hardware that performs like Desktop PCs from 12 years ago. The Macbook Air gets about the same battery life.
MBA isn't sold as a tablet.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 10:59 AM   #123
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MBA isn't sold as a tablet.
Neither is the surface, its a convertible that can be used as a tablet and as a laptop.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 01:25 PM   #124
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It's a Tablet, no it's a laptop, no it's just like the MacBook Air

Look, it's really a piece of junk that only get's 4 hours of battery life and only that if you are just surfing the web.

But it runs Office, wow that is the number one reason not to buy it. Just wait to those that love Microsoft upgraded to Office 2013. Now that's really a pile.

Windows users can stick to the only pacifier that you know, but for me that junk that I use to own is in the dump right now where it belongs.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 02:23 PM   #125
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Neither is the surface, its a convertible that can be used as a tablet and as a laptop.
The MS tribe and their sycophants call it a tablet when they want to knock the iPad (iPad is just a toy, Surface can do real work). Then it magically turns into an Ultrabook and it gets compared to a MacBook Air when someone complains about battery life, weight etc.

I'd low to know how many people are getting real work done using a legacy x86 application on the Surface in tablet form. Yeah using Microsoft Excel while tapping the screen with my finger or a stylus sounds like a lot of fun. Even with the type cover I can't see myself getting a lot of work done on a 10" 16:9 screen.

When have we ever seen the Surface pictured sans keyboard in portrait orientation (the way most people would use a tablet to read a book/magazine)? As a matter of fact we rarely see the Surface in landscape orientation with out the kickstand and keyboard attached.

I see no real reason to buy the Surface over an Ultrabook that gets better battery life, has an adjustable screen and doesn't need to be used on a completely flat surface (can be used on your lap). What makes the Surface better than a Lenovo or Ausu touch screen Ultrabook?
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