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Old Feb 15, 2013, 06:57 AM   #1
ApplesAOranges
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Will the 2013 Mac Pro have the "iMac delivery fiasco" as well?

Just wondering if Apple will fail again with the new Mac Pros when itīs released. Iīm quessing yes. Iīve been waiting the new iMac for six weeks and still nothing.

So Iīm wondering how many months I will have to wait for the new Mac Pro when itīs released...

Is this some sick marketing strategy from Apple or do they really have no funds and resources to produce these machines faster?
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 09:28 AM   #2
Borman
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It really depends on how many they make. I wouldn't imagine it having quite the demand of the iMac, but who knows considering how long people have been waiting.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 09:49 AM   #3
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You're kind of jumping the gun a bit now don't you think?
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 10:28 AM   #4
ApplesAOranges
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You're kind of jumping the gun a bit now don't you think?
Why are you apologizing for Apple? Donīt you think they are the ones jumping the gun with "releasing" products, but not being able to manufacture them (or intentionally keeping the supply low and demand high?)?
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:01 AM   #5
Moonjumper
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They are having trouble with new manufacturing techniques, and there was pent up demand because of the delayed release. The situation is understandable, but disappointing.

We don't know what the new Mac Pro will bring, or how long that have been working on it, so we don't know what problems it might have. But there is certainly pent up demand because it has been so long since the last worthwhile update, so supplies are likely to be constrained initially.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 11:06 AM   #6
deconstruct60
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Originally Posted by ApplesAOranges View Post
Why are you apologizing for Apple?
No one is apologizing for Apple. What is at question here is any basis whatsoever for your assertion this might happen.

bonding a glass panel directly to a LCD has know problems. That is why nobody else has been doing it for the last 20 years.

What exactly about the Mac Pro construction process is suppose to cause drama. Complicated milling of Aluminum? errr. has been done for last 20-30 years.

There is no LCD which slowed rMBP and iMac deliveries.

So what? Apple is adding a dilithium crystal matter-antimatter engine to the Mac Pro? They got a new metal composite from Area 51 ?

The current seamless Mac Pro case was already wasn't easy to manufacture and Apple did just fine over the last 7 years or so.

Even if they were poking holes in the case and filling them with dielectric....

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/12/...aller-devices/

its isn't a huge leap from what is being done now on other, much higher volume, models.

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Donīt you think they are the ones jumping the gun with "releasing" products, but not being able to manufacture them (or intentionally keeping the supply low and demand high?)?
Apple doesn't manufacture anything. It is more the case of having a honest relationship between themselves and the manufacturers. If one or more sides isn't honest about the difficulties in scaling the product then run into glitches.

The demand for Mac Pro is relatively low (relative to either other Mac product). Scaling problems unless there is a basic parts shortage is extremely unlikely to be an issue.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 12:41 PM   #7
All Taken
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No, at most the new machine will have 30% the demand that a typical iMac release has.

Unless of course the new Mac Pro has a built in display side panel that uses lamination for bonding....
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 01:16 PM   #8
ActionableMango
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Will the 2013 Mac Pro have the "iMac delivery fiasco" as well?

Nobody here could possibly know the answer to that.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 02:35 PM   #9
scottsjack
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I ordered my BTO 2010 Mac Pro a couple days after they were made available for order. It arrived right on time.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 02:40 PM   #10
goMac
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I think it took me two months to get my 2008 Mac Pro.

So I'd be expecting it. It happens every Mac Pro release.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 02:45 PM   #11
scottsjack
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I think it took me two months to get my 2008 Mac Pro.

So I'd be expecting it. It happens every Mac Pro release.
Holy Cow. That's a long wait.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 03:10 PM   #12
beaker7
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Who said there will be a 2013 Mac Pro?

Ivy Xeons not until early 2014.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 03:14 PM   #13
Nermal
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Who said there will be a 2013 Mac Pro?
Tim Cook did, and Apple PR has pointed back to that statement a few times since.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 03:21 PM   #14
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Tim Cook did, and Apple PR has pointed back to that statement a few times since.
He said they were working on something for Pros for late 2013.

That was also said at a time when the Ivy Xeons were on schedule for late 2013.

Tim Cook has never said "We are releasing a new professional Mac Pro tower during calendar year 2013."

Remember, they also consider FCPx to be for "Pros" so Tim's definition is likely not the same as the rest of us.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 04:09 PM   #15
goMac
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Holy Cow. That's a long wait.
I'm pretty sure it was the GeForce 8800 option that did it.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 05:03 PM   #16
deconstruct60
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Originally Posted by beaker7 View Post
Who said there will be a 2013 Mac Pro?

Ivy Xeons not until early 2014.
Who says that 2013 Mac Pro has to use a Ivy Bridge Xeon E5 ? It could just as easily use Sandy Bridge offerings. That would make even more sense if Ivy Bridge Xeon E5s slid into 2014.

However, who says they are? Somewhat recent roadmaps had them in Q3 '13. That leaves just about all of Q4 to slide into without transition to 2014.

"... Ungaro said on the call that the future "Ivy Bridge" Xeon E5 v2 processors, due later this year from Intel, will slip right into the existing machines because they are socket-compatible with the current Xeon E5s and will not require any re-engineering. ... "
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02..._2012_numbers/

Vendors are still lining up to deploy Xeon E5 v2 this year. The Supercomputer folks may be in "special, first come" class status but as mostly just a socket compatible process shrink there shouldn't be a huge delay here.




al
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 08:18 PM   #17
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Speculation...

As mentioned previously, we simply don't know and really the only thing I predict we will see in this "wonderful" for 2013 is possibly a very non-upgradable mac like pro machine where there will be less expansion and integrated graphics.

My hope is for a 16x or 32x PCIe slot for a dedicated graphics card and possibly 1 to 2 PCIe 3.0 slots.. Again, speculation. We don't know and we will all have to wait and see, but I am in no rush for it as my 6-core Westmere serves my use rather well.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 09:16 PM   #18
deconstruct60
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chuckle how this post doesn't show up as an edit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beaker7 View Post
He said they were working on something for Pros for late 2013.
No he didn't. He said "although don't have anything now ... later in 2013" . late != later.

He did not peg it specially to Q4 2013. That is a bunch of made up lore created on rumors sites to conveniently fit. ....

Quote:
That was also said at a time when the Ivy Xeons were on schedule for late 2013.
Actually anyway most of the Ivy Bridge-E (i7 varianiant ) and -EP (Xeo E5 ) roadmaps were in the dark on rumor sites last June. It wasn't until around Fall Intel developers forum that the roadmap firmed up and leaks became common.

In fact the roadmaps as of Oct pegged Ivy Bridge Xeon E5 at Q3 ( except for the 1600 series which is closer to Q4. )

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/17/i...5-2600-v2-cpu/

Again lots of hand waving turns early Q3 into "late 2013". They probably will arrive closer to Q4 than start of Q3 since mainstream Haswell has slipped and they use the same process technology so Intels fabs will be adjusting their schedule to handle other launches.

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Tim Cook has never said "We are releasing a new professional Mac Pro tower during calendar year 2013."
Tim Cook never was going to specifically name a product. Talking specifically about future products is a firing offense Apple. It is against corporate policy. Apple is only going to tip-toe close to the line to drop hints. Some elements of common sense is required. If a customer asks about a Mac Pro and Cook replies about something in that space .... it probably is something that is going to be labeled Mac Pro.


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Remember, they also consider FCPx to be for "Pros" so Tim's definition is likely not the same as the rest of us.
Sigh.... There is nothing in FCPX that stepped away from performance. If the solutin they are building is equally aligned with performance that will include Xeon E5's and mid-to-upper end GPU cards. That is just where the industry is going. Legacy baggage like ODDs and other things may be let go but if lookng for basic motivations the new offering would be aligned with the future not the past.

For some being a "pro" means languishing in old methodologies and old technologies. In that respect, yes... those probably will get left behind.

Last edited by deconstruct60; Feb 15, 2013 at 09:21 PM.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 02:28 AM   #19
Simon R.
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Who says there's gonna be a 2013 Mac Pro?

EDIT: Ah, sorry - late to the party. But as pointed out... we don't know if there will be one this year or ever again....
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 08:22 AM   #20
deconstruct60
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... But as pointed out... we don't know if there will be one this year or ever again....
on multiple occasions when the future of Mac Pro pops up Apple repeatedly points back to the same context last June were comments were made about something in 2013.

To take the position there isn't going to be anything in 2013 is not the most likely bet.

You don't know if there are going to be any Apple products this year or ever again. Apple could spontaneously collapse from some catastrophic failure.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 08:42 AM   #21
Simon R.
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
on multiple occasions when the future of Mac Pro pops up Apple repeatedly points back to the same context last June were comments were made about something in 2013.

To take the position there isn't going to be anything in 2013 is not the most likely bet.

You don't know if there are going to be any Apple products this year or ever again. Apple could spontaneously collapse from some catastrophic failure.
Stop being a fool with comments like that. You do know that Apple is a BUSINESS, right? And how much revenue are they making from the Mac Pro line? Very little, if any. That is why it isn't unlikely that the line is dead - also considering it is the only line of Macs that have no USB3, no Thunderbolt and it doesn't have SATA3 either. It's obviously been left behind. Apple may release a totally different product that they intent as their pro product line, but I think that the big, bulky Mac Pro is a thing of the past. Unfortunately some of us still need something with more expandability than what an iMac can give you with sound cards, DSP cards, HDMI outputs etc., so we'll see if that is being taken care of somehow. The era of big PCI cards is certainly coming to an end - only problem is that right now there is no successor to it. I am sure in 10 years there will be, but for the time being desktops are still important for many people.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 08:45 AM   #22
mikeorchard
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Originally Posted by ApplesAOranges View Post
Why are you apologizing for Apple? Donīt you think they are the ones jumping the gun with "releasing" products, but not being able to manufacture them (or intentionally keeping the supply low and demand high?)?
Welcome to the entirety of Apple's history of product launches.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 08:54 AM   #23
Garamond
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Speculating about possible future delays in products yet to be released.

So that is what this forum has become?
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 09:54 AM   #24
deconstruct60
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Stop being a fool with comments like that. You do know that Apple is a BUSINESS, right? And how much revenue are they making from the Mac Pro line? Very little, if any.
If about 100K per year at about a $2,999 average selling price ( both conservatively high and low respectively) that is approximately $300M/yr. That is not very little. Only a deeply warped perspective would label that as very little. If most of Apple's Mac Pro customers were bring in $300M/yr this whole thing would be a non issue.

The issue is growth not revenues. A 2009 business that does $300M which became a 2010 business at $300M , etc etc. is a big problem for Apple since they can get a much higher return on investment by putting money into other products that do grow and have comparable profit margins.


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- also considering it is the only line of Macs that have no USB3, no Thunderbolt and it doesn't have SATA3 either. It's obviously been left behind.
As if USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt are the critical factors behind the lack of Mac Pro growth or revenues. Comical.

Apple's lack of investment in 2010-2011 says nothing about whether they expect to get better return on investment in 2013-2015 in the Mac Pro space. If they announced that they want to compete in the space, it is extremely likely that there is a reasonable expectation to make an acceptable return in this area.

In order to get a return they have to have something competitive.

Quote:
Apple may release a totally different product that they intent as their pro product line, but I think that the big, bulky Mac Pro is a thing of the past.
And you are an Apple VP or executive. In charge of Mac Pro product management ? Work for Apple at all? It really doesn't matter how you grab your crotch. That really isn't going to have much direct influence on the next Mac Pro.


Quote:
The era of big PCI cards is certainly coming to an end -
Chuckle. That's why intel is releasing Xeon Phi cards and the rest of the higher end GPGPU market is doing well and growing?

what is coming to an end is the era of the small PCI-e cards. Adding relatively pedestrian I/O like USB 2.0 , FW800 , 1GbE, one-two port eSATA functionality, etc. (ExpressCard like stuff. ) A vertical PCI-e card just to add bluetooth .... nonsensical at this point.



Folks keep inventing "modular future" with Thunderbolt when PCI-e is substantially faster and affords much more modularity in a single box. The multiple computer ( where computation is main element being focused on) is growing.

That is what is wrong with the Mac Pro's growth. It is not tracking that.

The trend in the workstation market are that:

1. GPU cards in the mid-upper range are getting hotter with respect to 10 years ago.

2. CPUs are not the sole source of computational power and in order to compete with GPUs can't really go in the completely opposite power reduction direction. ( they are both having to balance performance versus power savings) so much slower power decreases than more mainstream designs. )

Neither of those are indicators of a smaller box that is competitive.

Similarily while needs for 5.25" devices is down the need for 2.5" devices is up. Again probably a net zero space consumption trade-off and not indicative of a smaller box that is competitive.


Quote:
only problem is that right now there is no successor to it.
It is barely starting. There is still gobs of the software base that is mired in 20 year old, outdated architectural constraints and preconceptions.

Quote:
I am sure in 10 years there will be, but for the time being desktops are still important for many people.
The Mac Pro was never aimed at many people ( the mainstream). No one needed at Mac Pro to run mainstream apps before and still won't 10 years from now.

Last edited by deconstruct60; Feb 16, 2013 at 10:01 AM.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:11 AM   #25
Simon R.
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
If about 100K per year at about a $2,999 average selling price ( both conservatively high and low respectively) that is approximately $300M/yr. That is not very little. Only a deeply warped perspective would label that as very little.

This is from 2011, and the 6% desktop revenu you see there includes Mac mini - so my guess is that the Mac Pro in 2011 accounted for less than 3% of the revenue. And today it's even less.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/10...omes-from-ios/

Quote:




As if USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt are the critical factors behind the lack of Mac Pro growth or revenues. Comical.
It certainly is. Not many are willing to buy technology that is already ancient when you buy it. For example Black Magic Designs newest video interfaces are available for USB3 and Thunderbolt - which means you can't use those on a Mac - and they used to be a "Mac first" company.

Thunderbolt - a technology Apple themselves have boasted how great is - and their pro machines don't have it - now THAT is comical.

SATA3 - the current Mac Pros can't even take full advantage of SSD's because they are crippled by having an old SATA2 interface.

You are obviously an "Apple apologist" or ignorant if you can't see these are major points and major shortcomings in current Mac Pros.

Quote:

And you are an Apple VP or executive. In charge of Mac Pro product management ? Work for Apple at all? It really doesn't matter how you grab your crotch. That really isn't going to have much direct influence on the next Mac Pro.
There isn't going to be a "next Mac Pro". That is what I believe. But I certainly hope that I am wrong.
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