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Old Feb 26, 2013, 08:56 AM   #126
samcraig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val-kyrie View Post
The analogy is intended to demonstrate parents taking responsibility for the actions of their children, for whom they have even more responsibility than a friend.

I do think Apple should have a system in place to deal with complaints about deceptive practices within applications which charge people for IAP without being clear about the fact that real money is being charged. Apple should have a way to reverse the charges, much in the same way that a credit card company or PayPal is able to reverse charges (but let's not get into PayPal's policies here--the point is one of method).

Perhaps Apple is here recognizing this flaw in their system and justly compensating people who have been wronged; however, it is also too easy for most Americans to shift blame. If you are going to hand off your iPad or iPhone to your child without supervision, don't be surprised if something bad happens.
Are you reading my posts. Apple already changed their process precisely because it was "broken." So if you want to blame parenting (now) - go ahead. This story and outcome has nothing to do with the present situation and everything to do with the previously BROKEN process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmkim View Post
To those who are saying essentially that Apple is doing this because they believe there's some vulnerability given the legal complaint, Apple is doing this for the same reason insurers pay off scammers... to make them go away.

If you're going to reproduce, have the common sense to make sure your child is old enough/mature enough to know to ASK you for permission before tapping something to 'buy'. My daughter was 9 for her first cell phone and 11 for the first iPhone. First rule of iPhone... don't buy or even download anything without permission. Simple rule. And lo-and-behold...no 'unknown' charges.

If you're a parent that lets a child who doesn't know any better do this, then you deserve to have your money taken as a "stupid tax".
You're obviously not reading or understanding the issue. They aren't paying people off to make them go away. They are compensating them for a previously broken system. A system which they have since changed.

I'd agree with you if they didn't change anything and were paying people off. But that's not what they are doing.

I completely agree that parents should monitor their children. And teach responsibility. At the same time - with a flawed system - you can't blame the parents completely. I sure don't.

The processing system was flawed. That's not a parenting issue. That's a process issue.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:09 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
.

...

I completely agree that parents should monitor their children. And teach responsibility. At the same time - with a flawed system - you can't blame the parents completely. I sure don't.

The processing system was flawed. That's not a parenting issue. That's a process issue.
BS flawed system.

This is the USA where you can sue because you spill coffe on yourself while driving and get payed.

These parents moronic behavior should have never been rewarded.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:12 AM   #128
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And the moral of the story is:
A child that doesn't understand the value of $1 doesn't deserve to own or use such a device.

This just proves that these devices are giving children far too much control. Take your kids outside and get them exercising, let them use their imagination.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:15 AM   #129
samcraig
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Originally Posted by i.mac View Post
BS flawed system.

This is the USA where you can sue because you spill coffe on yourself while driving and get payed.

These parents moronic behavior should have never been rewarded.
Spilling coffee that was too hot for consumption. I agree - perhaps a silly lawsuit - but it did lead to better labeling.

The system wasn't flawed because of BS.

You want to generalize behavior of parents without knowing them. You have no idea how or what they did to monitor their children and or these purchases.

Even worse - is you calling them moronic.

I'm sure you'd feel differently if something you believed was safeguarded only to find out that the process of safeguarding you was flawed and was exploited. And I'm sure you wouldn't mind people calling you "moronic" for being a victim.

Personally- I was never affected nor would I be in the future. But I also don't put a blanket statement on everyone who was affected. Were there some parents who were probably to blame - sure. That doesn't negate the flawed process though from being flawed.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:35 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post
Did you read the article? There is that option now, but there wasn't at first.

.
It was there by the time I got my original iPad (in may 2010) which was the same time all the articles and such started. I remember checking to see if there was a way to turn them off

What wasn't there was the ability to alter the password grace period. That was iOS 5 if not a point release during it

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Quote:
Originally Posted by realeric View Post
It wasn't but it is now. Apple stored the credit card number and let children use the number without parent's approval.
Not always. I know a lot of parents that think its fine to tell their four year old their password. And then they wonder why stuff gets jacked up.

Ultimately these suits are as much as the style of app as they are the money. These parents basically feel that freemium apps are false advertising, illegal etc.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
Just ban in-app purchases to begin with, all they do is create horrible play 2 win games!
No they don't just. They are also how magazine apps work and many other very useful items.

Apple didn't originally design the iPhone etc to be put into the hands of unsupervised kids. They trusted that parents were smart and parental enough to watch what kids were doing,to do things like disable the App Store and not tell kids the password.

They were wrong. Even after the articles started there are still folks that are this careless. And still want to blame Apple. At some point they have to be willing to admit they are at least partially to blame or Apple needs the legal right to ban them from having a purchase capable account cause they can't handle the responsibility. Or at least ban them from having a credit card on file so they have to go get those iTunes gift cards and have to pay attention to their money with less actual risk if they screw up

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Quote:
Originally Posted by you people smh View Post
The gas station that allowed a 5-year-old to buy $180 worth of candy and magazines with an iphone, if you must know.
Nope.they perhaps should. But they will sue Apple because they werent paying attention to their kid etc

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
NFC is already a standard. What's your scenario?

(With Google Wallet, you can require a PIN before use. You can also disable Wallet on any device.)
Okay so when you have a stupidly easy pin you let your kid find out without changing it and don't bother to learn about restrictions (something even you are guilty of) who will you blame. Because all of that 'back in the day' won't protect you at this point. Now it will be nothing but your stupidity or laziness.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:41 AM   #131
ronwasserman
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This is interesting.

My son would always ask me first, "Dad, can I buy these points/weapons/etc.?" and most of the time I'd say 'go ahead.' This is how is should always be.

Glad to see Apple has tweaked their system for this though.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 10:09 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrip View Post
Did you read the complaint that they filed? Me neither.

But my guess is that Apple was vulnerable, because the parents had good and convincing points. If not, it seems unlikely that Apple would have settled.
You really can't say that. Apple may have known they were in the right, as they changed the system to block such things if the parents had bothered to use the systems, refunded all the monies and added the whole 'top in app purchases' line as a big flag that there are in app purchase and so on. But the legal costs of making these arguments would have been more than settling and giving everyone that didn't get their full money back a pay out. Thus they settled

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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcraig View Post

Parents SHOULD always keep tabs on their children and what apps they install/have access to. I don't think anyone would argue that point. That's completely irrelevant to the actual issue here.
No,that is very relevant to the issue. Saying parents should keep tabs in their kids but that doesn't matter to this issue when it was in some cases the major factor is like saying parents shouldn't be dumping their kids at the mall to hangout but if they do and the kid is arrested for shoplifting the parents aren't to blame for not watching their kids. If you should be supervising your kid you should be supervising your kid, period.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
.

The bottom line is - the purchasing process was flawed. Even if you want to argue parenting - it doesn't change the fact that their was a flawed purchasing process.
The system was only 'flawed' because it didn't take into account parents handing their devices to their kids and not bothering to turn on restrictions, log out of iTunes and/or pay attention.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beesneeze View Post
Except for the In app purchases (I had no idea what they were, and there is no explanation in the control panel)
The word 'purchases' didn't give you pause and make you find out what it meant before you handed a logged in account to a young child? Sorry but that makes it not Apple's fault.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beesneeze View Post
or why just make parental controls more intuitive to use? Is there any parent in the world who would seriously consider giving a child a credit card? Perhaps, but they are a very rare breed. All they need to do is make it so when you chose to set up parental controls, that the default is to have in app purchasing off. Those with money to burn can turn it on if they want.
Even better idea. Make parental controls all on by default. Then when you prove to Apple that you are a mature adult who understands how to use your account they will tell you the password to turn it on and off yourself.

If the word purchase doesn't make you realize money etc then you are to blame when you leave it in and your kid takes advantage
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 10:12 AM   #133
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I don't recall my parents suing AT&T or Bellsouth when I ran up an $800 phone bill by making long distance calls on the land line. I just got in trouble and had to help them pay for it and I was more aware/cautious to not do it again. Welcome to today's society, I guess.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 10:46 AM   #134
samcraig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTVenom View Post
I don't recall my parents suing AT&T or Bellsouth when I ran up an $800 phone bill by making long distance calls on the land line. I just got in trouble and had to help them pay for it and I was more aware/cautious to not do it again. Welcome to today's society, I guess.
I think the difference is - the phone company was never seen as "secure." If to access 1-900 numbers or whatnot required some code and a child was able to make that type of call because of a flaw in authentication - you'd see more of a comparative argument.

Again - the issue here is a flaw in processing a transaction. It was "exploited" by (mostly) children. But that doesn't necc put the entire onus on the parents (or children).
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:00 AM   #135
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Or just turn off in-app purchases.

We did that after learning the hard way (my kid of 5 yrs spent $200 on some game levels)

And Apples credit, they did reverse the charges right away when we called to complain.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:11 AM   #136
samcraig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KdParker View Post
Or just turn off in-app purchases.

We did that after learning the hard way (my kid of 5 yrs spent $200 on some game levels)

And Apples credit, they did reverse the charges right away when we called to complain.
Well clearly you're a "moronic parent" for allowing this to happen. I'm glad Apple rewarded your lack of parenting skills by giving you back your money
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:36 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squilly View Post
How is this Apple's fault?
I agree. Freemium app makers who make their games addictive and impossible to beat without in app purchase extras are to blame here.
How did they dodge the suit and Apple has to settle?

Who else is to blame here? The parents, the game maker, the kid, the credit card company.

Crappy Apple Lawyers.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:45 AM   #138
KdParker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Well clearly you're a "moronic parent" for allowing this to happen. I'm glad Apple rewarded your lack of parenting skills by giving you back your money
Really.

Do you know what your kid does every second of the day? If you have kids then you know you don't.

These games are set up so that it is not clear that moving to a new level is actually costing money. (especially to a kid just learning to read).
Plus these charges happened with one button click, hardly moronic parenting.

Now these games like these require that a password be entered for in-app purchase that will stop them from just clicking through.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:46 AM   #139
flat five
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmkim View Post
.

If you're going to reproduce, have the common sense to make sure your child is old enough/mature enough to know to ASK you for permission before tapping something to 'buy'. My daughter was 9 for her first cell phone and 11 for the first iPhone. First rule of iPhone... don't buy or even download anything without permission. Simple rule. And lo-and-behold...no 'unknown' charges.
that's a good rule.. mine is probably a little more strict in that my daughter can't download or buy anything at all.. I do it for her and she has no means of doing it herself.. even if I give her permission.

but seeing how you're failing to read and recognize what has happened because of apple and/or shiesty developers, you just go ahead and say I deserve a 'stupid tax'.. nice
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:51 AM   #140
KdParker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTVenom View Post
I don't recall my parents suing AT&T or Bellsouth when I ran up an $800 phone bill by making long distance calls on the land line. I just got in trouble and had to help them pay for it and I was more aware/cautious to not do it again. Welcome to today's society, I guess.
Agreed, but AT&T didn't create a free game that you could play on your phone and give you a new number to dial in order continue and then start charging without making it clear you were being charged.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 12:18 PM   #141
samcraig
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Originally Posted by KdParker View Post
Really.

Do you know what your kid does every second of the day? If you have kids then you know you don't.

These games are set up so that it is not clear that moving to a new level is actually costing money. (especially to a kid just learning to read).
Plus these charges happened with one button click, hardly moronic parenting.

Now these games like these require that a password be entered for in-app purchase that will stop them from just clicking through.
I am truly sorry if you thought my post was sincere - it was complete sarcasm based on a few previous posts which claimed what I was mocking.

I agree with you 100 %
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 12:57 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by TMar View Post
So if you let a child drive a car and they wreck it you can take it back to the dealer for a refund? So sick of the lack of personal responsibility that's been a trend over the last decade. If you or your dependents screw up it's your fault, own up to it.
Worst analogy, ever.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 01:10 PM   #143
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You people are blaming the parents. How long was in app available before they had the option to disable it? I disable it on all our ISO devices and Android. But it wasn’t always an option. Any claim after that then yeah it’s the parents fault.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio View Post
Parents out there

Stop spoiling your kids!

Go throw them outside and let them play for Christ sake!

Why back in my days we'd play till it got dark not on our devices.
What an uninformed comment. My kids all have iOS devices and play a lot.
They have them for the 3 hour drives to my parents. Or the 3 day drives to Florida. Have kids and you will see. If not then I feel sorry for them. Get with the times.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 03:08 PM   #144
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Aside from all the "bad parenting" back and forth, I wanted to throw two things into the mix:

1-The original filing by the parent is the owner of his own law firm. Can you use your own firm when suing? If so, who do you think is making a milking while everyone else gets $5 (and up)?!? There are so many posts here about people calling Apple and getting a refund. Curious if he tried this first or just dialed it up to armageddon. (Honestly I don't know.)

2-Part of the suit suggests that a secondary password be implemented so get ready to have to remember another password folks!

3-(yeah, I'm sneaking this in) Also get ready for a big sticker on your new iPod purchase. Which might actually be a good thing to educate people about IAP I guess.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 03:12 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ncaissie View Post
You people are blaming the parents. How long was in app available before they had the option to disable it? I disable it on all our ISO devices and Android. But it wasn’t always an option. Any claim after that then yeah it’s the parents fault.

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What an uninformed comment. My kids all have iOS devices and play a lot.
They have them for the 3 hour drives to my parents. Or the 3 day drives to Florida. Have kids and you will see. If not then I feel sorry for them. Get with the times.
i will lock my kids outside and they can't come in until they lose a certain amount of calories.

I WILL NOT HAVE FAT KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

perhaps a book would serve them better
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 06:20 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post
Did you read the article? There is that option now, but there wasn't at first.

I think this is partially Apple's responsibility, since they weren't requesting a password when the in-app purchasing feature was first added, making it too easy for kids to make unauthorized purchases.
Yeah, people have short memories. Even now parents should keep in mind the 15 minute window after entering their password that the App Store keeps the user authenticated for purchases.

All that being said, the initial release of the Kindle Fire was WAY worse than any of this with its instant buy-buy-buy everything w/o a password, the requirement to have an Amazon account w/ a credit card, and no parental controls what-so-ever. They've since fixed some of that, but I much prefer my step-children with their iPods and their own Apple accounts that they can only buy things using an Apple gift card w/ no CC on file what-so-ever.

I'm not sure how Amazon avoided lawsuits.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 06:29 PM   #147
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look at all the children on this forum...of course it's Apple's fault. If it wasn't their fault they would of won the law suit morons. Or they wouldn't had changed the in app purchase rules.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 07:23 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by madsci954 View Post
At least 95%
What's the other 5%?

Orphans?
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 08:41 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by tigres View Post
Parenting is easy? As a parent I wish I could share your sentiment- yet it is so wrong in do many ways.
So tell me, being able to preblock channels and shows on TVs isn't making it easier? yet parenting groups still moan and cry when shows on the air do something not child friendly... screw logic apparently.

So many things allow parenting to be easy no a days. Don't know where your child is? Find my iPhone.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 09:39 PM   #150
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This is a stupid lawsuit. Apple never make mistakes. Oooops... it's an american lawsuit, so maybe Apple isn't right in this case.
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