Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > iOS Blog Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Mar 29, 2013, 01:54 PM   #1
MacRumors
macrumors bot
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Piracy-Crippled Game From Hunted Cow Returns to App Store as 'Battle Dungeon: Risen'




Last December, asynchronous multiplayer strategy game Battle Dungeon hit the App Store. Less than a week after the game was released, an .ipa file surfaced on the internet and illicitly obtained copies of Battle Dungeon caused a huge amount of stress on the game's servers.

The team behind Battle Dungeon, Hunted Cow, was forced to shut it down after the server load caused technical difficulties that the team did not have the resources to fix.

Hunted Cow did not give up on Battle Dungeon and has today released a new version of the game in the App Store. Battle Dungeon: Risen is a redesigned single player version of Battle Dungeon that features a number of improvements.

Battle Dungeon: Risen offers up all new content, along with improved graphics and a lower price. The game has also been stripped of in-app purchases, allowing all upgrades to be obtained with gold earned in the game.
Quote:
We've integrated our AI code in to the game and developed a complete single player campaign. Along with all new maps and enemies, so don't be surprised if you see a skeleton or two wandering our new and improved dungeons. We've also gone over all our levels with some new tools that should give it much more vibrant and realistic lighting. In addition to this, each mission now includes a 3 star challenge rating and we've implemented Game Center leaderboards and achievements.
As a turn-based strategy game, Battle Dungeon: Risen features 12 different scenarios to play through with several different classes, massive battles, and an array of items to earn.

Battle Dungeon: Risen can be downloaded for the iPad and the iPhone from the App Store for $1.99. [Direct Link]

Article Link: Piracy-Crippled Game From Hunted Cow Returns to App Store as 'Battle Dungeon: Risen'
MacRumors is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:14 PM   #2
iMacFarlane
macrumors 65816
 
iMacFarlane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Phaselocking Psychos somewhere on Pandora
Looks neat and all, but until I see a sentence that specifically states that the single-player experience in no way requires server connectivity, no thanks. Sad that we've found ourselves here, isn't it?
__________________
Knowledge is power. Learn something new every day!
iMacFarlane is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:18 PM   #3
Joe-Diver
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Link to .ipa file due out this week!
__________________
24" iMac Aluminum; 17" uMBP (mid 09); 32Gb iPhone4;16Gb iPod Nano 6g Green; 32Gb iPad Air; ATv2
Joe-Diver is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:24 PM   #4
jclo
Editor
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMacFarlane View Post
Looks neat and all, but until I see a sentence that specifically states that the single-player experience in no way requires server connectivity, no thanks. Sad that we've found ourselves here, isn't it?
It doesn't require server connectivity.
jclo is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:39 PM   #5
nagromme
macrumors G5
 
nagromme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
It's a shame that server-side/multiplayer gaming can be at the mercy of pirates.

Yes, some multiplayer games succeed anyway. Others fail for a stupid reason like this, and it shouldn't be that way. Small developers are the most vulnerable.

Pirates: you are stealing actual money from the people who make what you seem to love playing! (Because if you weren't playing, the servers wouldn't be overloaded.)

If you like someone's creative work, pay them for it.
nagromme is offline   20 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:56 PM   #6
SmoMo
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
I dont fully understand what happened.

So are the developers saying that they sold X copies of the game, but for every legitimate copy there were Y pirate copies being played?

I don't understand how this resulted in their server experiencing too much congestion unless Y is a really large number right?
Even if 99% of the copies were pirate I am surprised the server could not cope, after-all surely they were prepared for that eventuality in case they had actually managed to sell that many copies.

Perhaps they were using a scalable cloud service and they just couldn't afford to keep it running due to such poor sales, and emphasising the large number of pirate copies was a way to save face.

I don't know, so I would take what they say at face value, but I'd love to know the value of Y.
SmoMo is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 02:57 PM   #7
Tulipone
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Huntingdon UK
Well I thought it looked great. Bought it. Controls, in my opinion, make it unplayable. Can't be arsed.
Tulipone is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 03:26 PM   #8
Unggoy Murderer
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post
If you like someone's creative work, pay them for it.
Well said Sir.

On a side note, I hate people who say "I download stuff to try it out. If I like it, I'll buy it." The logic is so stupid, it's like stealing a car for a weekend, and then going back to the dealership, or driving it off a pier.

Just buy stuff, or look up reviews. Save the economy, and small businesses.
__________________
27" iMac, i7 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM 13" MBP 2.66 GHz, 8GB RAM 3rd Gen iPad 64 GB Wifi+4G, iOS 7 iPhone 5 32 GB, iOS 7 Mac Mini 2.00 GHz, 2GB RAM
Unggoy Murderer is offline   8 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 03:46 PM   #9
NewAnger
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver Colorado
The game is already on the usual "piracy" sites including the one that replaced apptracker.
NewAnger is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 04:56 PM   #10
alphaod
macrumors Core
 
alphaod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 上海 (Shanghai)
Good price and looks to be a decent game.
__________________
Mac Pro | Mac mini | 15" MacBook Pro | iPad Air | iPhone 6
alphaod is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 05:36 PM   #11
APlotdevice
macrumors 68020
 
APlotdevice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
The game has also been stripped of in-app purchases, allowing all upgrades to be obtained with gold earned in the game..
This is by far the best part of the announcement.
__________________
There is something deeply wrong with a society more offended by breasts than by entrails.
Pebble SmartWatch | iPhone 5c | 11" Macbook Air '13 | HTPC | TV | Numerous Old Consoles
APlotdevice is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 06:42 PM   #12
cmChimera
macrumors 68000
 
cmChimera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unggoy Murderer View Post
Well said Sir.

On a side note, I hate people who say "I download stuff to try it out. If I like it, I'll buy it." The logic is so stupid, it's like stealing a car for a weekend, and then going back to the dealership, or driving it off a pier.

Just buy stuff, or look up reviews. Save the economy, and small businesses.
No it's not. 1. When you steal a car, you're not leaving the original car behind. 2. You get to test drive cars.
cmChimera is offline   11 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 07:24 PM   #13
oneMadRssn
macrumors 6502a
 
oneMadRssn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Boston, MA
Pirating software is not theft. It is wrong, it is morally reprehensible, the people who do it are culpable, but it is not the crime of theft nor should it be analogized to it. It's plain different.

Theft, as defined by some the top legal minds, is only applies to things that are commoditizable and exhaustible. Meaning, it only applies to things that can be bought and sold, and only when the wrong committed deprives the rightful owner of doing what they want with it.

Infringing on someones copyright does not deprive the original owner of buying, selling, copying, etc. their original copy. Also, the right to copy and sell copies is not really a commodity, not in the traditional sense anyway.

Of all analogies to common crimes, infringing a copyright is most similar to trespass. The copyright owner has this metaphorical piece of property, and the infringer goes onto this property and uses it. He does not deprive the owner of their use (he stays out of his way), and he does not lower the properties value. He is intruding on the owner's right to exclude, that is all.
oneMadRssn is online now   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 07:48 PM   #14
holmesf
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneMadRssn View Post
Pirating software is not theft. It is wrong, it is morally reprehensible, the people who do it are culpable, but it is not the crime of theft nor should it be analogized to it. It's plain different.

Theft, as defined by some the top legal minds, is only applies to things that are commoditizable and exhaustible. Meaning, it only applies to things that can be bought and sold, and only when the wrong committed deprives the rightful owner of doing what they want with it.

Infringing on someones copyright does not deprive the original owner of buying, selling, copying, etc. their original copy. Also, the right to copy and sell copies is not really a commodity, not in the traditional sense anyway.

Of all analogies to common crimes, infringing a copyright is most similar to trespass. The copyright owner has this metaphorical piece of property, and the infringer goes onto this property and uses it. He does not deprive the owner of their use (he stays out of his way), and he does not lower the properties value. He is intruding on the owner's right to exclude, that is all.
In this case it's theft because it's not merely copyright infringement. The software is backed by real services that have real costs per user. Each pirate using the servers has a real associated cost to them.
holmesf is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 08:09 PM   #15
oneMadRssn
macrumors 6502a
 
oneMadRssn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Boston, MA
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmesf View Post
In this case it's theft because it's not merely copyright infringement. The software is backed by real services that have real costs per user. Each pirate using the servers has a real associated cost to them.
That's true, but it's similar to someone sneaking into a theater and taking a seat, thereby depriving someone else of a seat. It's still similar to trespass, not theft. The thing being stolen is commoditized in this case, but I still don't think its exhaustible.

The server limit is artificial in a way. Would it still be piracy if the developer sold a million copies in a day, and his server was overloaded? Sure, his pickets would be stuffed with cash at the end of the month, but servers take time to upgrade or expand, right? I don't like to blame the victim, but in this case the victim is partially responsible (maybe 10% responsible). He could have designed his server-side software to be more scalable, and he could have also easily prevented unauthorized users from accessing the server. To say they didn't expect piracy is naive really.

What the pirates did is wrong, but it's just not the same as theft. I still maintain its the same as trespass.
oneMadRssn is online now   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 08:11 PM   #16
holmesf
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneMadRssn View Post
That's true, but it's similar to someone sneaking into a theater and taking a seat, thereby depriving someone else of a seat. It's still similar to trespass, not theft. The thing being stolen is commoditized in this case, but I still don't think its exhaustible.

The server limit is artificial in a way. Would it still be piracy if the developer sold a million copies in a day, and his server was overloaded? Sure, his pickets would be stuffed with cash at the end of the month, but servers take time to upgrade or expand, right? I don't like to blame the victim, but in this case the victim is partially responsible (maybe 10% responsible). He could have designed his server-side software to be more scalable, and he could have also easily prevented unauthorized users from accessing the server. To say they didn't expect piracy is naive really.

What the pirates did is wrong, but it's just not the same as theft. I still maintain its the same as trespass.
The server isn't limited in an artificial way. More paying customers would allow more servers, as you said. Developers don't really need to "plan" for the selling a million copies overnight scenario because that would just be a case of counting chickens before they hatch. Most small-time developers struggle and few succeed. So not the same thing.
holmesf is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 08:42 PM   #17
BiigBiscuit
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmChimera View Post
No it's not. 1. When you steal a car, you're not leaving the original car behind. 2. You get to test drive cars.
I was just going to say the same. Stealing is taking the original while piracy leaves the original in tact and duplicates it.
BiigBiscuit is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 08:55 PM   #18
iGrip
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Send a message via ICQ to iGrip Send a message via AIM to iGrip Send a message via MSN to iGrip Send a message via Yahoo to iGrip Send a message via Skype™ to iGrip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unggoy Murderer View Post
The logic is so stupid, it's like stealing a car for a weekend, and then going back to the dealership, or driving it off a pier.

Downloading a song is like stealing a car and driving it off a pier. OK.
iGrip is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 09:06 PM   #19
anarchopath
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneMadRssn View Post
Pirating software is not theft.
Finally someone on the internet who can think with his brain instead of his emotions.

Scarcity is the root concept you seem to be getting at. Concepts of property arose to avoid conflict over scarce resources. Almost universally, moral norms and justice systems across humanity stem from concepts of property in scarce resources. This development is automatic, spontaneous, a necessary fact of the human condition, across almost every culture throughout different times on different continents. To my point, for concepts of property to be valued and respected in society, a class of people calling themselves "government" isn't required to invent the concept and impose it on society. Free markets, religious folk, justice systems, families, communities, naturally develop and value property due to it's capacity to reduce conflict over scarce resources.

Property is wholly separate from government grants of monopoly privilege. These do not arise naturally in society without government inventing and imposing them. Examples of these are copyrights and patents, and the fact that their supporters refer to them as "property" no more makes them so than a random guy becomes your father just because him and his friends refer to him as your father. To be clear:
A) government grants of monopoly privilege have utterly nothing to do with property
B) by definition, free markets don't automatically value and develop government granted monopoly privileges
C) government grants of monopoly privilege fly in the face of property based moral norms and justice systems, because they rely on violence to restrict what peaceful people can do with their own actual property

So no, copying files has utterly nothing to do with theft. When you steal a car, it's theft because the car is scarce—the owner can't control it while you do. When you copy a file, it isn't theft because the owner's of control over his scarce resource (data on a computer chip, or something) isn't violated.

Last edited by anarchopath; Mar 29, 2013 at 09:22 PM.
anarchopath is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 10:22 PM   #20
soundr
macrumors newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmChimera View Post
No it's not. 1. When you steal a car, you're not leaving the original car behind. 2. You get to test drive cars.
1. Then lets compare it to counterfeiting money. I'm sure you see nothing wrong with that.

2. You don't get to test drive cars without permission.
soundr is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 10:51 PM   #21
aristokrat
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchopath View Post
Finally someone on the internet who can think with his brain instead of his emotions.

Scarcity is the root concept you seem to be getting at. Concepts of property arose to avoid conflict over scarce resources. Almost universally, moral norms and justice systems across humanity stem from concepts of property in scarce resources. This development is automatic, spontaneous, a necessary fact of the human condition, across almost every culture throughout different times on different continents. To my point, for concepts of property to be valued and respected in society, a class of people calling themselves "government" isn't required to invent the concept and impose it on society. Free markets, religious folk, justice systems, families, communities, naturally develop and value property due to it's capacity to reduce conflict over scarce resources.

Property is wholly separate from government grants of monopoly privilege. These do not arise naturally in society without government inventing and imposing them. Examples of these are copyrights and patents, and the fact that their supporters refer to them as "property" no more makes them so than a random guy becomes your father just because him and his friends refer to him as your father. To be clear:
A) government grants of monopoly privilege have utterly nothing to do with property
B) by definition, free markets don't automatically value and develop government granted monopoly privileges
C) government grants of monopoly privilege fly in the face of property based moral norms and justice systems, because they rely on violence to restrict what peaceful people can do with their own actual property

So no, copying files has utterly nothing to do with theft. When you steal a car, it's theft because the car is scarce—the owner can't control it while you do. When you copy a file, it isn't theft because the owner's of control over his scarce resource (data on a computer chip, or something) isn't violated.
Finally, someone on the internet who hides behind semantic arguments to support immoral acts. Scarcity is not what gives rise to the definition, but rather a society's legal definition of property rights, be they physical or intellectual. If the definition of property rights includes that a king is allowed to take anything he wants from his subjects, then his claiming of any good, no matter how scarce, is not theft, even though he is depriving its original owner of its use. On the other hand, if a society defines property rights to include things like ideas or books, then appropriating them for your own use is theft.

Stealing is simply the violation of property rights, and property rights define what is stealing. Making semantic arguments about scarcity and deprivation of use are moot points. There is no universal law or code of conduct, and thus there is no absolute definition of theft. But since society currently includes intellectual property in the definitions of property rights, taking intellectual is theft.
aristokrat is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 10:53 PM   #22
bonehead
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lost Angeles
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarchopath View Post
Finally someone on the internet who can think with his brain instead of his emotions.

Scarcity is the root concept you seem to be getting at. Concepts of property arose to avoid conflict over scarce resources. Almost universally, moral norms and justice systems across humanity stem from concepts of property in scarce resources. This development is automatic, spontaneous, a necessary fact of the human condition, across almost every culture throughout different times on different continents. To my point, for concepts of property to be valued and respected in society, a class of people calling themselves "government" isn't required to invent the concept and impose it on society. Free markets, religious folk, justice systems, families, communities, naturally develop and value property due to it's capacity to reduce conflict over scarce resources.

Property is wholly separate from government grants of monopoly privilege. These do not arise naturally in society without government inventing and imposing them. Examples of these are copyrights and patents, and the fact that their supporters refer to them as "property" no more makes them so than a random guy becomes your father just because him and his friends refer to him as your father. To be clear:
A) government grants of monopoly privilege have utterly nothing to do with property
B) by definition, free markets don't automatically value and develop government granted monopoly privileges
C) government grants of monopoly privilege fly in the face of property based moral norms and justice systems, because they rely on violence to restrict what peaceful people can do with their own actual property

So no, copying files has utterly nothing to do with theft. When you steal a car, it's theft because the car is scarce—the owner can't control it while you do. When you copy a file, it isn't theft because the owner's of control over his scarce resource (data on a computer chip, or something) isn't violated.
Do you like getting paid for the work you do? Don't you think a worker should benefit from the fruits of their labor? Copying files is not paying a worker for their output. I would think a person with your views wouldn't want to shaft their brother worker.
bonehead is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 29, 2013, 11:37 PM   #23
anarchopath
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
Do you like getting paid for the work you do?
Yes, within strict limits (based on property first, and then contract). So for example regarding property, someone doesn't deserve to get paid for a statue that he built from gold bars taken out of your house while you were away. And regarding contracts, I don't expect you to pay me for the work I do for my clients.

You're talking about justice. Like I said originally, justice is a concept stemming from the root of property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
Don't you think a worker should benefit from the fruits of their labor?
Within reasonable limits, sure; but not necessarily. Like I said, if someone labors to make a statue out of gold bars stolen from your home, he doesn't deserve to benefit from that. And a street performer doesn't deserve the money of everyone who happens to see him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
Copying files is not paying a worker for their output.
Ok, but so what? People don't just automatically deserve money by mere virtue of the fact that they've labored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aristokrat View Post
Property rights...
No, you're making stuff up to rationalize your belief system ex post facto. Property is independent of a person's opinion about rights. Whether theft has occurred has nothing to do with whether you believe someone had some mystical "right", or even whether several people agree with you.
anarchopath is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 2013, 12:54 AM   #24
ArtOfWarfare
macrumors 603
 
ArtOfWarfare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Send a message via Skype™ to ArtOfWarfare
Oh look, MR has decided to post another story from this whiney developer.

Sheesh, once they publish about you just once, it doesn't matter what you have to say anymore, they'll just publish it.

I really need to make my own crappy server based app so that MR will cover it for me.

Hey guys, I'm going to limit Battery Status to only receive statuses from 5 other computers on your network, because if you have people running illegal copies on your network, you might consume too much bandwidth, and you wouldn't want that.

In a few months, I'll just upload a new version of Battery Status that completely lacks the networking features and Mac Rumors will run a second article on it. Worked with Mailbox. Worked with Hunted Cow. Why wouldn't it work for me?
__________________
Don't tell me Macs don't last: 2007 iMac, 2007 Mac Mini, 2008 MacBook Air, all Vintage.
(iMac obsoletion: April 28, 2015, MBA: October 14, 2015, Mac Mini: March 9, 2016)
ArtOfWarfare is online now   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 30, 2013, 01:19 AM   #25
Rajani Isa
macrumors 65816
 
Rajani Isa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneMadRssn View Post
That's true, but it's similar to someone sneaking into a theater and taking a seat, thereby depriving someone else of a seat. It's still similar to trespass, not theft. The thing being stolen is commoditized in this case, but I still don't think its exhaustible.

Except in this case, you're also sneaking behind the concession stand and getting a soda.

In this specific case the big/main issue was that the pirated copies used the official servers. This meant not only did they not get money for each copy, but unlike someone sneaking in a theatre to steal a seat, each copy caused additional expense (unlike most other pirated software, which either is single/offline play or uses unofficial servers). Even if they didn't have the money right away from Apple, with the sales of all those copies they could of gotten credit, no doubt, to get the needed extra server capacity and tech support.

Note I don't care to get in a general property rights debate; I am just referring to the specific case with Battle Dungeon.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtOfWarfare View Post
Oh look, MR has decided to post another story from this whiney developer.

Sheesh, once they publish about you just once, it doesn't matter what you have to say anymore, they'll just publish it.

I really need to make my own crappy server based app so that MR will cover it for me.

Hey guys, I'm going to limit Battery Status to only receive statuses from 5 other computers on your network, because if you have people running illegal copies on your network, you might consume too much bandwidth, and you wouldn't want that.

In a few months, I'll just upload a new version of Battery Status that completely lacks the networking features and Mac Rumors will run a second article on it. Worked with Mailbox. Worked with Hunted Cow. Why wouldn't it work for me?
So how do you know it's crappy?

And oh noes, someone tried to make a multi-player game you can play over the internet! (Mailbox being server based, that you might have a point on).
Rajani Isa is offline   3 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > iOS Blog Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OS X: Anyone know of a good dungeon crawler game? old-mac-man Mac and PC Games 38 Jan 1, 2014 12:37 PM
'Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition' Returns to App Store Following Contractual Dispute MacRumors iOS Blog Discussion 13 Aug 16, 2013 01:35 PM
Dungeon Master available in the app store! russo045 iPhone and iPod touch Apps 1 Mar 18, 2013 03:19 PM
App Store Gifting Returns to iOS Devices MacRumors iOS Blog Discussion 25 Dec 17, 2012 05:35 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:49 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC