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Old Apr 1, 2013, 12:49 AM   #1
Lil Chillbil
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4K Rumor Mill and excitement Thread (Official Cause I said so)

Well with lots of very exciting things going on in the world of film I thought I would make a thread dedicated to tossing round ideas in everyones heads.

-4K Video Cameras is anyone excited to what canon and sony have in the mix
-New Processors to put in the editing systems like the new Xeons coming up later this year
-5tb western digital hdds to store all your 4k goodness
-4k monitors to enjoy the video quality
-New editing Systems specifically designed round 4k Like Adobe CS7 Sony Vegas 13 and the New Final cut 11
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 03:51 AM   #2
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The New Final cut 11?
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 06:30 AM   #3
daybreak
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Have you read or heard anything about FCP-11?
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 11:48 AM   #4
mBox
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Most likely 10.1 for NAB.
And 4K offerings from Canon?
Thats a given
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 11:53 AM   #5
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Have you read or heard anything about FCP-11?
True 4K production at a consumer/prosumer level is still years away. It will then take even a few more years to become the "norm" like HD today.

Yes a technology changes, there will be opportunities for more and better storage solutions, high resolution monitors and cameras, and software.

To say editing software will be built around 4K makes no sense at all. Will it incorporate the ability to edit in 4K, maybe, but that is codecs and settings. The software will not be redesigned to incorporate 4K resolutions. When Avid first started to accept HD resolutions, the only change was the default to 16x9 source and program screens.

In the professional world, 4K is here, but not really used except for movies. The cost is so high and the audience is limited for tv shows. As major networks look at there next equipment purchases, yes they might invest in 4K cameras and switchers, and monitors. But the end product will still be HD.

In terms of of current tv use, 4k is really only used in sports. Thats what gives the ability for them to zoom in on a receivers foot in or out of bounds and get a decent quality image. The 4k image is cropped to a 1080 image and can then be enlarged.

Thats my rant and most of this info is from conferences I've been at where Sony, Cannon, Panasonic and a lot of the big name companies have had high level reps speak to this exact topic.
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 12:01 PM   #6
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In regards to 4K production, lot of naysayers but Id rather be Columbus in this case
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 12:09 PM   #7
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Most likely 10.1 for NAB.
And 4K offerings from Canon?
Thats a given
Canon will definitely have 4K equipment as will sony and the the big players.

In response to the "columbus" quote, I dont disagree its nice to be on the forefront and exploring the next new thing, but to adopt something too far ahead of its time can be detrimental to a business.
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 12:14 PM   #8
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Canon will definitely have 4K equipment as will sony and the the big players.

In response to the "columbus" quote, I dont disagree its nice to be on the forefront and exploring the next new thing, but to adopt something too far ahead of its time can be detrimental to a business.
I hear yaa
When I bought my Scarlet last fall I figured I might as well get ahead of myself
Im no stranger to 4K and up since Ive been working with a RED MX (day job) for almost 4 years now.
I got myself something that will def have future proof and still enjoy it presently
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 06:13 PM   #9
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I like the idea of 4k so please don't get me wrong here -

Is the world of 4k going to be as pathetic as DVD and Blu Ray where there are really NO minimum standards?

Ever notice that some DVD/Bd versions of movies are better than others and that some are just beyond horrible? Having higher resolution doesn't guarantee quality. It is akin to the days of shooting low ISO/ASA film and exposing it incorrectly or lens out of focus. Garbage in is garbage out.

I truly hope that when 4k comes about that all parties agree to some sort of minimum standard and stop ripping off the public. Netflix states it will down the line offer 4k streaming yet much of what is streamed still looks like garbage based on both compression and original transfers.

This should be an interesting time as 4k creeps in.
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 06:24 PM   #10
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There are somethings in life we dont have control off.
Im there no matter what as far as delivering 4K and above goes.
Just like broadcast television, we dont have control how are creative looks like in every set-top :P
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 10:39 PM   #11
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Is the world of 4k going to be as pathetic as DVD and Blu Ray where there are really NO minimum standards?
Like mBox said, there's no min IQ (image quality) standard when it comes to home distribution and there never will be. Whatever is 'good enough' to most people is the what we'll get by and large. Sure something like the Criterion Collection provides higher quality (for an increase in price) but I'm sure the sales number are tiny compared to the standard release. It's no different than music (SACD or DVD-A anyone)?

Movie transfers can be variable as technology, budget and quality of the available master print impact the end production. And streaming, well, I'm sure Netflix would love to raise the IQ of their streams but how many people want to pay more for the their Netflix subscription and how many people have fast enough internet connections to ever see a difference? Netflix already has 120 versions for each title it streams to accommodate all the various devices and bandwidth situations.

For me personally I rarely see distracting compression artifacts from Netflix on my TV (55" Panasonic Plasma) but I'm not pixel peeping either. Amazon streaming is hit and miss and HBO Go seams to consistently have poor looking streams (I rarely watch Hulu so I can't comment on it). If we all had 100Mb down with no data caps for $30/mo I'm sure streaming could look pristine.


On a broader note, I don't think OTA broadcasts will ever go 4K as there's too much expensive back end gear that would have to be upgraded (and they just recently upgraded it all from analog SD to digital and HD). In 8yrs or so I think 4K will be common across the board mainly because consumer electronics makers need to give consumers reasons to buy new cameras, phones, TVs, et.,.
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 10:43 PM   #12
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There are distros in the works one being Odemax for RED.
All we need is a big player to make it viable then the flood gates will open.
Ahem...Apple
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 11:37 PM   #13
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There are distros in the works one being Odemax for RED.
All we need is a big player to make it viable then the flood gates will open.
Ahem...Apple
Considering Apple's history of download/streaming quality I wouldn't exactly paint them as the standard bearer for premium quality content at a premium price.

There is a niche that will pay extra for higher quality content but I wouldn't expect them to tip the scales in the streaming world anymore than they the scales in the disc world. At 20 Mb/s Odemax, like Sony's 4K streaming/download movie service, is a bit fat for the current state of consumer broadband in the US. Not to mention the player is $1500 and is another box that people will have to find a place for near their TV. For commercial use I can see the potential but for home use it will end up in the home theaters of some enthusiasts but I think that will be the limit of its penetration.

By the time 4K becomes normal we'll have 4K TVs that will accept 4K signals directly from streaming services as well other devices (like the PS4) that will be able to pass along 4K video signals and while they probably will be inferior to REDRAY they will be good enough for the mainstream consumer.
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Old Apr 1, 2013, 11:53 PM   #14
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Haha true Lethal, I was steering towards the AppleTV 4K rumors.

If RED gets it right with their delivery codec, Im sure others will follow.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 12:24 AM   #15
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Haha true Lethal, I was steering towards the AppleTV 4K rumors.
Ah, yeah... flew right over my head.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 12:43 AM   #16
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There are still small networks in my area broadcasting with 480p cameras. though 360p was and always be the format I was most impressed with when you compare it to 240p 360p is so much better image quality. Where when you compare 480p to 720p not much difference and 720p to 1080p still not a huge difference. If your just watching youtube anything above 360p and you will get the exact same experience as you would if you were watching it in 1080p
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 01:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
Like mBox said, there's no min IQ (image quality) standard when it comes to home distribution and there never will be. Whatever is 'good enough' to most people is the what we'll get by and large. Sure something like the Criterion Collection provides higher quality (for an increase in price) but I'm sure the sales number are tiny compared to the standard release. It's no different than music (SACD or DVD-A anyone)?

Movie transfers can be variable as technology, budget and quality of the available master print impact the end production. And streaming, well, I'm sure Netflix would love to raise the IQ of their streams but how many people want to pay more for the their Netflix subscription and how many people have fast enough internet connections to ever see a difference? Netflix already has 120 versions for each title it streams to accommodate all the various devices and bandwidth situations.

For me personally I rarely see distracting compression artifacts from Netflix on my TV (55" Panasonic Plasma) but I'm not pixel peeping either. Amazon streaming is hit and miss and HBO Go seams to consistently have poor looking streams (I rarely watch Hulu so I can't comment on it). If we all had 100Mb down with no data caps for $30/mo I'm sure streaming could look pristine.


On a broader note, I don't think OTA broadcasts will ever go 4K as there's too much expensive back end gear that would have to be upgraded (and they just recently upgraded it all from analog SD to digital and HD). In 8yrs or so I think 4K will be common across the board mainly because consumer electronics makers need to give consumers reasons to buy new cameras, phones, TVs, et.,.
OTA has a higher chance of superior resolution than streaming via the net. The very same uncompressed signal can carry a compressed signal and that would provide your 4k capability. The question is what on the end user's side would be able to handle it.

My original comment still stands on the lack of quality of media provided to the consumer. I just recently rented a Netflix movie on DVD. It was 480i and muddy. There is NO reason to send out crap like that given that it was a movie and not a television show. The quality of the "transfer" was more or less a dump from an inferior source that was probably for television use. Lots of older movies seem to be subject to this disturbing "dump" methodology to DVD. Blu Rays also can be pretty bad as we see re-releases that are markedly improved. Netflix has a slew of them from one particular place in California that has the absolute worse "dumps" of older films. Some are so bad, it looks like they video taped a TV screen.

So lets see how 4k is done and most likely they will have to do better because at this resolution, flaws will be (some that is) far more noticeable.

I would be happy if DVDs, Blu Rays and the like continued their present path but with quality ratings. Thus, the movie DVDs I rented would get a 1 or a 2 out of 10.

Btw I use a 65" VT50 Panasonic along with an Oppo Bdp 103 as well as Dune 3 Base and XBMC on a Mac. Streaming Netflix best - Oppo, then VT50 etc.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 02:59 AM   #18
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OTA has a higher chance of superior resolution than streaming via the net. The very same uncompressed signal can carry a compressed signal and that would provide your 4k capability. The question is what on the end user's side would be able to handle it.
OTA isn't uncompressed. There is a finite amount of spectrum each channel gets (6 MHz I think) and that is a big reason the transition to HD took so long. HD was first experimented with in the '60's but it wasn't until digital compression came along that an HD signal could be effectively compressed down into the same amount of bandwidth as an analog SD signal. Channels (from OTA and cable) could have better IQ but many times they will spilt a single channel into multiple sub channels (ex 13.1, 13.2 13.3, etc.,) which degrades quality but lets the distributor send out more content which means more ads which means more revenue.

A big advantage streaming has is that the Internet is a much more malleably distribution medium than baseband video signals. YouTube, for example, went from streaming 320x240p in '05 to 1080p in 2009 and these upgrades were basically invisible to the end user. OTA can only utilize better compression to stay within the allotted bandwidth where as streaming can benefit from both better compression and increased bandwidth.


Quote:
My original comment still stands on the lack of quality of media provided to the consumer. I just recently rented a Netflix movie on DVD. It was 480i and muddy. There is NO reason to send out crap like that given that it was a movie and not a television show.
And no one is disputing the variable quality of media that reaches the end user though in your specific example what do you expect from a DVD? It's a video standard with roots in the 30's using compression that was cutting edge in 1996.

With regards to poor transfers of older films, it comes down to money. It takes time and money to do a quality restoration and the distributor footing the bill isn't going to spend more on the restoration and distribution than they think they will make in profit from selling the end product. I doubt 4K will be any better because the bottom line is still about revenue and Joe Average consumer is fine watching a 4x3 movie distorted or enlarged to fill a 16x9 TV because they don't like having the bars on the sides of the image. Quality is not a primary concern (if it was MP3s would not be central to a watershed moment in media distribution).

There are also limits to the human vision system and I'd wager that given average eye sight, average viewing distance and average HDTV size the vast majority of viewers wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 720p signal and a 1080p signal let alone the difference between 1080p and 4K. For 4K people will probably need TV's the size of walls or be sitting so close they can touch the screen. People will be them though, whether they can actually tell a difference or not, because big is better and to many it's about keeping up with the Jones'.

With that being said Sony is releasing a line of Blu-rays of movies that were mastered in 4K (the final image is still 1080p of course) and I think Sony is working to master all of its modern movies in 4K so maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel for those desiring a more pristine viewing experience.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 03:57 AM   #19
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True 4K production at a consumer/prosumer level is still years away.
Yup, albeit the GoPro 3 Black Edition is definitely a step in the right direction. Hope they will come out with a version recording at at least 24 fps at 4k this year - and other consumer camera manufacturers also follow suit in models costing less than $1000-$1500.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 11:40 AM   #20
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Yup, albeit the GoPro 3 Black Edition is definitely a step in the right direction. Hope they will come out with a version recording at at least 24 fps at 4k this year - and other consumer camera manufacturers also follow suit in models costing less than $1000-$1500.
At least some people understand.....

It will go the same way HD adoption did into the consumer markets. You could get a nice HDV camera in the same range as the go pro. It would give you "HD" footage, but the compression and workflow (mini dv tape) was horrible. You playback and rewind that tapes a couple times and they break.

This will be similar with the 4k. you will get it but as i said before, true 4k is still a long ways out for a consumer level.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 11:49 AM   #21
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Ill always be on the other side of the consumer fence when it comes to this medium.
I couldnt care less if the public adopts 4K.
Ive been working with high resolution since 1995 (3D Animation and Motion Design) and welcome all footage/projects at high res
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 12:04 PM   #22
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Ill always be on the other side of the consumer fence when it comes to this medium.
I couldnt care less if the public adopts 4K.
Ive been working with high resolution since 1995 (3D Animation and Motion Design) and welcome all footage/projects at high res
I agree with this....We do graphics for yearly events. In this years re-design everything is being done at 4K so it will be good to go for the next number of years. The final projection a the event will be 720p....

My argument here, is that it seems the majority of people here are not doing professional work, and that there is no real reason (at the present time) to be working in 4K.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 12:25 PM   #23
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boch trust me, after shooting with our RED then working it in to After Effects then finishing to DVD, I die a little day by day here :P
however we are also doing large installations of the Christie Microtiles system.
Im talking 6K to 8K res files here
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 02:04 PM   #24
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In 8yrs or so I think 4K will be common across the board mainly because consumer electronics makers need to give consumers reasons to buy new cameras, phones, TVs, et.,.
So true. Marketers always seem to be the biggest pushers behind things like 3D, TrueHD, Tru Motion, and all the other BS (mostly) gimmicks out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Chillbil View Post
There are still small networks in my area broadcasting with 480p cameras. though 360p was and always be the format I was most impressed with when you compare it to 240p 360p is so much better image quality. Where when you compare 480p to 720p not much difference and 720p to 1080p still not a huge difference. If your just watching youtube anything above 360p and you will get the exact same experience as you would if you were watching it in 1080p
But most people aren't watching through youtube in a small window. They're watching in their native resolutions. And that being the case, there's a dramatic difference between 480 and 720 (about 2x).

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Originally Posted by boch82 View Post
My argument here, is that it seems the majority of people here are not doing professional work, and that there is no real reason (at the present time) to be working in 4K.
Pretty much. Being in the business, it's always a smart move to exploring the next wave of tech. However, on the consumer level we're still a long ways off, especially in the delivery systems as other have mentioned.
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Old Apr 2, 2013, 04:43 PM   #25
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My argument here, is that it seems the majority of people here are not doing professional work, and that there is no real reason (at the present time) to be working in 4K.
Somebody chimes in that shoots everything happening in his family events:

It's beneficial to *record* and *store* everything in 4K (even family meetings and stuff), even if you can't play it back natively - yet. Unfortunately, people die and you won't be able to re-record some recordings, say, five years later. This is why I think having the best recording format / biggest resolution can be advantageous, even if you can't make use of it now. You'll be soon.
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