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Old Apr 15, 2013, 08:18 AM   #1
soco
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[Amateur] My photography conundrum!

Welcome to soco's photography conundrum!
Stay a while!

So I picked up, err... was gifted by my fiance, a Canon T3 w/kit EFS 18-55mm lens. Nifty!

I got this having already explored quite a bit of photography with P&S cameras, and since I got it in December (Christmas gift) I've read through an entire "For Dummies" book on the camera itself, multiple online photography classes that go over the basics in great detail including shutter speed, aperture, ISO, focal lengths and how they can be used creatively, and slightly started exploring HDR (but I'm promising not to over-do it).

My current situation is, I currently use my limited skills in those "opportunity" moments in which I almost always have my camera with me and occassionally say, "Hey, that'd be a nice picture." and I take it and move on with my day.

Not that I'm bored with this, but I guess it's knowing that I don't know even a tenth of what there is to know, I want more.

Add to this the fact that I've been reading reviews on my camera and they're kind of mean lol Photography aficionados seem to really not like this piece of kit. Did I make a horrible choice?

So here's some questions:
  1. I like my camera, but did I make a bad choice if I want to some day be worthy of submitting photos to the weekly photo threads?
  2. What's the best, and cheapest way to continue my learning? What is the next logical subject to delve into after the basics?
  3. I'm awfully confused about lenses. See, I just have this kit lens, and I find myself in a lot of situations where I guess I want a telephoto lens? These things are $200 for the cheapest ones I've found though. With such a low-end camera, is it worth it?
  4. Am I going to buy a $200 telephoto lens and then 6 months to a year later wind up being ready for a better camera and thus the lens winds up being a $200 rental? Maybe this is just the way of things.
  5. I haven't tried to get into post-processing yet. I own a copy of Photoshop just because it was gifted to me years ago. Is that a bit much to start with?
Again, my kit is currently a Canon Rebel T3, 18-55mm kit lens, no other lenses. I'm looking for the next step. I want to join the cool kids' club here.

Thanks, pals!
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Last edited by soco; Apr 15, 2013 at 10:32 AM.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 08:47 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soco View Post
[*]
I like my camera, but did I make a bad choice if I want to some day be worthy of submitting photos to the weekly photo threads?
This is the internet. People will be viewing low-res images in browsers. Your camera is good enough. Are you good enough? That's a different question.

Quote:
[*]
What's the best, and cheapest way to continue my learning? What is the next logical subject to delve into after the basics?
Practice, practice, practice. Go to the library and look at monographs of other photographers.

Quote:
[*]
I'm awfully confused about lenses. See, I just have this kit lens, and I find myself in a lot of situations where I guess I want a telephoto lens? These things are $200 for the cheapest ones I've found though. With such a low-end camera, is it worth it?
If you decide you want to stick with Canon cameras, then you can use the lens with a new body if you decide to upgrade later. A good lens is always worthwhile. I'm sure there are sites where you can look up the compatibility of lenses across models.
Quote:
[*]
I haven't tried to get into post-processing yet. I own a copy of Photoshop just because it was gifted to me years ago. Is that a bit much to start with?
[/center]
If you have it, then why not use it? It takes a while to learn everything about the program, but you don't need everything to get started. The basic stuff isn't that hard.
Quote:
[/LIST][LEFT]Again, my kit is currently a Canon Rebel T3, 18-55mm kit lens, no other lenses. I'm looking for the next step. I want to join the cool kids' club here.
Well, then you need a Leica.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:06 AM   #3
jeremy h
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My advice would be to buy the cheap Canon 50mm plastic 1.8 lens and a good book on exposure like Understanding Exposure or similar.

Go off and play for a couple of months then ...

... buy a flashgun (a cheap Yongnuo will probably do much of what the 4 times as expensive Canon wil do) and a book like the Speedliters handbook and play for another few months...

The results will surprise you.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:26 AM   #4
soco
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Originally Posted by MacCruiskeen View Post
This is the internet. People will be viewing low-res images in browsers. Your camera is good enough. Are you good enough? That's a different question.
I referred to the weekly contest slightly in jest. I more so mean, is this camera good enough to last me the next 3 years or so? I know the old addage is that the photographer makes the photo, not the camera, but I happen to disagree when skill is equal between two photographers, gear makes quite the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCruiskeen View Post
Practice, practice, practice. Go to the library and look at monographs of other photographers.
Ignorance: What are monographs of other photographers?

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Originally Posted by MacCruiskeen View Post
If you decide you want to stick with Canon cameras, then you can use the lens with a new body if you decide to upgrade later. A good lens is always worthwhile. I'm sure there are sites where you can look up the compatibility of lenses across models.
Beautiful! I feel much better about buying lenses now. Should I avoid spending as little as $200? Is there such thing as quality photos coming from cheap lenses?

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Originally Posted by MacCruiskeen View Post
If you have it, then why not use it? It takes a while to learn everything about the program, but you don't need everything to get started. The basic stuff isn't that hard.
Cool I'll start jumping into it then.

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Originally Posted by MacCruiskeen View Post
Well, then you need a Leica.
Yuk yuk yuk lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
My advice would be to buy the cheap Canon 50mm plastic 1.8 lens and a good book on exposure like Understanding Exposure or similar.

Go off and play for a couple of months then ...

... buy a flashgun (a cheap Yongnuo will probably do much of what the 4 times as expensive Canon wil do) and a book like the Speedliters handbook and play for another few months...

The results will surprise you.
I'll pleade ignorance here. Huh?
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:34 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soco View Post
...
  1. I like my camera, but did I make a bad choice if I want to some day be worthy of submitting photos to the weekly photo threads?
  2. What's the best, and cheapest way to continue my learning? What is the next logical subject to delve into after the basics?
  3. I'm awfully confused about lenses. See, I just have this kit lens, and I find myself in a lot of situations where I guess I want a telephoto lens? These things are $200 for the cheapest ones I've found though. With such a low-end camera, is it worth it?
  4. Am I going to buy a $200 telephoto lens and then 6 months to a year later wind up being ready for a better camera and thus the lens winds up being a $200 rental? Maybe this is just the way of things.
  5. I haven't tried to get into post-processing yet. I own a copy of Photoshop just because it was gifted to me years ago. Is that a bit much to start with?
...
To answer your questions in order:
  1. It's not the camera, it's the photographer that makes the difference.
  2. Take photos, lots of photos, play with settings on the camera. Find a good book on photography.
  3. Buying another lens that you would use would be worth it. Also, you would be able to use the lenses on other Canon cameras. Note some lenses do have restrictions around which cameras they will work with, but it's still a lot of cameras.
  4. Unless it's not compatible with the next camera. This includes switching what brand camera you have. Over time you might want better lenses, but that is a different issue.
  5. It's not a too much unless you try and use every tool at once. Learn the various features as you need to do things with it.

Also, unless you run into something your camera can't do, I would say don't bother upgrading for 2 or 3 years. Just buy other and maybe better lenses. Lens quality has a big impact on the image quality.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:35 AM   #6
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I'm a firm believer in the buy books, not kit mantra. As MacCruiskeen suggested, go to the library and look at all the monographs and collections of photographers works you can find. Try to discover what kind of photos are the photos you wish you had taken. Use the internet to discover how these photographers work/worked, how they get the look that interests you. Then just practice, practice, practice.

Don't get too bogged down by feeling that you need to know everything about the technical side of photography. There are some aspects you will just learn as you move through the learning curve. There are/were many of the great photographers who reportedly never knew anything about the technical side of photography. One such is Cartier-Bresson, who apparently had no idea about the technical side, he just had his camera set up a certain way and was a genius at framing, composition and timing.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:39 AM   #7
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I'd consider doing a short course/evening classes or something similar..in the uk most major towns will have a college that will do evening classes at very reasonable prices.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:44 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by soco View Post
I'll pleade ignorance here. Huh?
No problem. In my opinion there's no point in spending hundreds or thousands of $() on any lens until you've got to grips with the basics of how lenses work when stuck on a camera.

You need to know some basic theory and as others have said you need to practice. A book like the one I mentioned will give you the theory.

I found it enormously useful to practice with a fast lens* that will give you lots of exposure options. The 50mm is brilliant value for money and I think would fit the bill perfectly.

Once you've done this your confidence will increase hugely, you'll be able to look at other peoples shots in various books and be able to guess how they've got the shot technically and you'll be able to make your own intelligent decisions as to what other gear you might need (if at any at all!).

* Any decent book will explain!
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 09:47 AM   #9
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Never mind the camera for now. No matter what you start out with, the chances are pretty high that you'll want to replace whatever you have with a newer model, regardless of how well the camera is serving you. Try to get yourself to where you know what you want out of a camera (or lens) before you buy a new one.

One of the best ways to improve is to post your favorite photos online and ask for criticism. You can do that here on MacRumors (best done in your own thread with no more than a few photos at a time) or on any number of other forums on the net. Different forums have different strengths, but a good general critique venue for Canon users is this one: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...splay.php?f=12

Once you start learning where your weaknesses are, the answers to your five questions above will become obvious.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 10:32 AM   #10
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Never mind the camera for now. No matter what you start out with, the chances are pretty high that you'll want to replace whatever you have with a newer model, regardless of how well the camera is serving you. Try to get yourself to where you know what you want out of a camera (or lens) before you buy a new one.

One of the best ways to improve is to post your favorite photos online and ask for criticism. You can do that here on MacRumors (best done in your own thread with no more than a few photos at a time) or on any number of other forums on the net. Different forums have different strengths, but a good general critique venue for Canon users is this one: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...splay.php?f=12

Once you start learning where your weaknesses are, the answers to your five questions above will become obvious.
Great response, and thank you.

I feel like a have a good eye for framing and general composition so far, so what I'm really looking for is how to take the basics that I already know even further. Books on photography aren't jumping out at me since 90% of what's in them is the same from book to book. They cover the usual subjects for beginners.

I guess I'm more so looking for, "Hey, you should look into this article on levels and curves!" kind of stuff.

In the end, I guess the realization I'm having from this (and thank you all for it) is that it's time for me to just start posting shots, receiving critiques, and making improvements on my craft. I also need to start thinking about what kind of photographer I'd like to be. What's fun? What's beautiful? What's exhilarating to me? And go have a ball with it for a while.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! See you in a critique thread soon lol
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 12:10 PM   #11
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There is some very good advice above, some better than others, imho.

I'll just add some points.

Number One: Take more photos... you will only get better at photography by doing photography. Still read the books, etc etc - but not at the expense of actual shooting time.

Instead of randomly shooting (or in addition to - depending on how much time you have) instead give yourself little "jobs" or "projects". For example - spend a few weeks shooting every night under street lights at night with no flash. Expect that 99% of your photos are going to be absolute crap to begin with. But, during the day, read up and research about how to do night time photography. How to hand hold a slow shutter. How to meter with dark shadows. etc. Look at the photos and honestly critique them. Either yourself or by posting online. Very quickly you will start seeing some good images coming out of your camera. In the days of film, we expected one or two "super" images per roll (about 36 exposures). The rest were just filler. Usually it was 5 rolls of crap, and then one roll with 10 or 15 great images. I'm not sure if my average has gone done or up since adopting digital. On the one hand you can take way more photos with little consequences. On the other hand I can see very quickly that a particular shot just isn't working and abandon it or alter it.

The point is that these "jobs" should be about doing something you don't already know how to do - something you want to learn how to do. Even if, for example, night photography is not something you really want to pursue the basics of getting it right will still be useable in your other shots.

Don't get caught up in the equipment endless upgrade loop - yet. That camera is just fine. However, when you do think about lenses I advise people to buy and use their cameras, and invest in their lenses. If you are serious about this... then it is very likely that you will upgrade your camera several times in the foreseeable future. If you invest in your lenses then that they will stay fairly constant and will not hold you back.

A crappy lense on a great camera can only produce images of moderate quality at best. However, a great quality lense on a camera with no 'features' is limited only by the photographer themselves. The image quality mostly dictated by the lense and the photographer.

Take photos. Take lots of photos.

If you want to have some fun, Google "Hiroshi Sugimoto pinhole" and especially the Church photo. No lense used for these pinhole photos. Also look up "Beer Can Pinhole" and "Justin Quinnell" and "Solargraphs".

These images were taken with a camera that cost the price of a can of beer. So... don't get hung up on equipment just yet.

For post processing, start with iPhoto (as the cheapest entry application). When you outgrow it, look at Lightroom or Aperture. Photoshop is way too much for most of what you want to do for now. There are some very good threads in this forum about Lightroom and Aperture. Most people use Lightroom or Aperture in conjunction with something like Photoshop. This will make more sense when you read the threads.

Good Luck.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 01:26 PM   #12
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I agree with the advice to get a fast prime lens before you do anything else. A 50mm f/1.8 is your cheapest option in the Canon line-up (the Canon canon?). That gives you the short telephoto FOV of 80mm. You could get closer to the normal focal length with the older 35mm f/2, but that costs a little more. And just so you know, lenses hold their value pretty well, so if you decide to switch systems in the future, you can simply sell whatever you have and switch.

But I really posted here to make two important points:

First, remember that you are a hobbyist. Photography is huge fun, but so many people learn to take their cameras off auto, and suddenly they're out taking pictures of kids in sunflower fields and calling themselves professionals. Resist the urge!

Second, don't be afraid to learn how to use flash and to modify natural light sources. Strobist has some great (free) resources on how to get started when you're ready. Even if you don't use artificial light much, the study of light manipulation will improve your photography a great deal.

Have fun!
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 01:45 PM   #13
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I agree with the advice to get a fast prime lens before you do anything else. A 50mm f/1.8 is your cheapest option in the Canon line-up (the Canon canon?). That gives you the short telephoto FOV of 80mm. You could get closer to the normal focal length with the older 35mm f/2, but that costs a little more. And just so you know, lenses hold their value pretty well, so if you decide to switch systems in the future, you can simply sell whatever you have and switch.

But I really posted here to make two important points:

First, remember that you are a hobbyist. Photography is huge fun, but so many people learn to take their cameras off auto, and suddenly they're out taking pictures of kids in sunflower fields and calling themselves professionals. Resist the urge!

Second, don't be afraid to learn how to use flash and to modify natural light sources. Strobist has some great (free) resources on how to get started when you're ready. Even if you don't use artificial light much, the study of light manipulation will improve your photography a great deal.

Have fun!
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 02:44 PM   #14
soco
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I agree with the advice to get a fast prime lens before you do anything else. A 50mm f/1.8 is your cheapest option in the Canon line-up (the Canon canon?). That gives you the short telephoto FOV of 80mm. You could get closer to the normal focal length with the older 35mm f/2, but that costs a little more. And just so you know, lenses hold their value pretty well, so if you decide to switch systems in the future, you can simply sell whatever you have and switch.

But I really posted here to make two important points:

First, remember that you are a hobbyist. Photography is huge fun, but so many people learn to take their cameras off auto, and suddenly they're out taking pictures of kids in sunflower fields and calling themselves professionals. Resist the urge!

Second, don't be afraid to learn how to use flash and to modify natural light sources. Strobist has some great (free) resources on how to get started when you're ready. Even if you don't use artificial light much, the study of light manipulation will improve your photography a great deal.

Have fun!
While your aside about hobbyist versus professional photography was a little odd and unecessary, I appreciate the message. I am self-declared as an amateur, after all.

I'll look into the lenses and advanced flash techniques. Thanks!
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 04:55 PM   #15
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I sympathize. Like I said in the other thread, I started out with a T3 and 18-55mm kit lens, too. The T3 was a great camera to learn on but all the reviews you mentioned (which almost always consisted of "Go for the T2i or T3i instead" at the very least) got to be a bit disheartening. But in the end you've just got to tune that out and focus on getting the most out of the gear you have. I took the advice that the lens matters more than the body to heart and my initial focus was on getting better lenses. I had a little more flexibility than you because I started out with both the 18-55mm kit and a 55-250mm and so already had basic coverage of the 18-255mm range. This led me to focus more on prime lenses.

My first two purchases (for good or ill) were a Canon 50mm f/1.4 lens (which allowed for great bokeh) and a Speedlite 430EX II. I enjoyed the challenge of framing a shot with a prime versus using a zoom lens and the ability to use bounce flash rather than head-on from the built-in flash improved the photos considerably.

I forced myself to ignore the impulse to buy a better camera too soon and instead really get to know the one I had, for at least a year if not longer. It wound up being about a year and a half before I finally upgraded to the Canon 7D, and that was driven by finding myself in situations where I needed to go beyond 1/4000 sec shutter speed, getting my Speedlite off the camera, and a mic-in port for video work I'd found myself doing more often than not. I opted for the 7D for the ability to keep using my EF-S lenses, since otherwise I'd have only had a 35mm and the 50mm to work with. I'm still saving up for my 5D Mk. III, but realistically I'm years away from that. I'm sure there will be a Mk. IV by the time I can afford one.

Anyway, back to the beginning steps, I found it helpful to pick up a few photo books early on after browsing this forum, most notably Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure. I liked it so much I actually branched out and picked up his Understanding Shutter Speed and Learning to See Creatively books, too. I also picked up a dedicated T3 info book because I found the T3's manual to be rather sparse on explaining all of its features-- although it sounds like you already did this.

I personally get a lot out of watching some YouTube channels like DigitalRev for some interesting approaches. You'll probably get more out of the more creative features like Pro Photographer, Cheap Camera, but they're usually entertaining if nothing else. I think the pro body+cheap lens vs. cheap body+pro lens video was the first one I watched. I like sifting through Zack Arias' Tumblr, too. And of course this board is always a great resource.

So that's kind of a narrative approach to addressing your questions. The bulleted approach:
  1. No, you did not make a bad choice at all. The T3 can take fantastic shots and has been used in the Weekly Photo threads already (I even won once with it).
  2. See above.
  3. The biggest take-away re: lenses that I've learned is that it's not just the focal length you want to consider, it's the aperture. I don't want to say one's necessarily more important than the other, as it's a balancing act depending on your needs. But aperture arguably becomes more important once you have basic focal length coverage, like the 18-255mm situation I mentioned in the first paragraph. $200 is actually on the low end in terms of lens cost. Even more expensive lenses are worth putting on a T3, so don't feel like your camera isn't "worth it". It is.
  4. If you stay in the Canon eco-system, the lens will go with you. With an EF-S lens, you'd only be restricted from using it if you go to a full frame camera like the 5D or 6D. If you stay with a crop sensor (i.e. 7D, 60D, T5i) then it's always going to be something you can use, although as your lens collection grows you might not need to keep using that particular lens. This is actually something that may inform your upgrade decision like it did mine (again, see above).
  5. I think snberk103's advice to start with iPhoto and then grow into Aperture or Lightroom is spot on. I personally use Aperture.

For some reason I always love finding other T3/1100D users.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 08:41 PM   #16
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Ignorance: What are monographs of other photographers?
Monograph is a pretentious word for book featuring the work of a single artist. I recommend looking at books rather than using the interwebs because the reproduction is usually better. Seeing real prints in galleries or museums is good too. Most how-to type books aren't worth very much except for a few fairly technical ones that don't apply much to digital anyway.

Also, turn off all the automatic controls on your camera and learn to do it all in your head. ("use the force, luke.") You'll learn to visualize what will happen before you take the picture.
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Old Apr 16, 2013, 08:19 AM   #17
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I sympathize. Like I said in the other thread, I started out with a T3 and 18-55mm kit lens, too. The T3 was a great camera to learn on but all the reviews you mentioned (which almost always consisted of "Go for the T2i or T3i instead" at the very least) got to be a bit disheartening. But in the end you've just got to tune that out and focus on getting the most out of the gear you have. I took the advice that the lens matters more than the body to heart and my initial focus was on getting better lenses. I had a little more flexibility than you because I started out with both the 18-55mm kit and a 55-250mm and so already had basic coverage of the 18-255mm range. This led me to focus more on prime lenses.
Good to hear about anyone successfully starting out with a T3! It's like we're in a little club. You're right about the bad reviews being disheartening.

I get a vibe of, "I'm a very successful and accomplished photographer, and I use a Mark XII, it's an advanced custom design just for me. Anyway, I fart in your T3's general direction on principal. No one could ever hope to take a viewable photo with that toy."

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I forced myself to ignore the impulse to buy a better camera too soon and instead really get to know the one I had, for at least a year if not longer. It wound up being about a year and a half before I finally upgraded to the Canon 7D, and that was driven by finding myself in situations where I needed to go beyond 1/4000 sec shutter speed, getting my Speedlite off the camera, and a mic-in port for video work I'd found myself doing more often than not. I opted for the 7D for the ability to keep using my EF-S lenses, since otherwise I'd have only had a 35mm and the 50mm to work with. I'm still saving up for my 5D Mk. III, but realistically I'm years away from that. I'm sure there will be a Mk. IV by the time I can afford one.
Again, good to hear. I was afraid I couldn't lillypad myself from here to there by starting with a T3.

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Anyway, back to the beginning steps, I found it helpful to pick up a few photo books early on after browsing this forum, most notably Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure. I liked it so much I actually branched out and picked up his Understanding Shutter Speed and Learning to See Creatively books, too. I also picked up a dedicated T3 info book because I found the T3's manual to be rather sparse on explaining all of its features-- although it sounds like you already did this.

I personally get a lot out of watching some YouTube channels like DigitalRev for some interesting approaches. You'll probably get more out of the more creative features like Pro Photographer, Cheap Camera, but they're usually entertaining if nothing else. I think the pro body+cheap lens vs. cheap body+pro lens video was the first one I watched. I like sifting through Zack Arias' Tumblr, too. And of course this board is always a great resource.
I've been doing a lot of what you're talking about. I'm currently reading my way through a print version of Alexandre Buisse's Photo Class while I'm at work, and when I'm driving to and from, I'm watching, in order, the Art of Photography podcast episodes. That one is currently focusing on film and development, but I'm watching anyway to learn more about exposure in general and to just know it for posterity.

I'm definitely giong to look into those books though. They sound like they're up my alley.


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For some reason I always love finding other T3/1100D users.
We should start a support group. Maybe we'd call it, "From T3 to Riches" lol

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Originally Posted by MacCruiskeen View Post
Monograph is a pretentious word for book featuring the work of a single artist. I recommend looking at books rather than using the interwebs because the reproduction is usually better. Seeing real prints in galleries or museums is good too. Most how-to type books aren't worth very much except for a few fairly technical ones that don't apply much to digital anyway.

Also, turn off all the automatic controls on your camera and learn to do it all in your head. ("use the force, luke.") You'll learn to visualize what will happen before you take the picture.
I'm trying to avoid the inherent pretentious in any artform. It's tough sometimes, eh? lol

I'm going to hit up my local library and check out some books though. Thank you!

With regard to "the force" - I've been shooting in either Av/Tv/P or A-Dep since early January. I mess with all out Manual from time to time too, but unfortunately most of the times that I've been shooting so far have been too important to be making mistakes in. Hopefully this Spring brings with it more opportunity to make mistakes and learn in Manual.
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 11:08 AM   #18
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While your aside about hobbyist versus professional photography was a little odd and unecessary, I appreciate the message. I am self-declared as an amateur, after all.

I'll look into the lenses and advanced flash techniques. Thanks!
I'll comment just in case you're still subscribed to this thread. I had forgotten about this!

In any case, I agree that my aside seemed odd. I had probably just looked at another Facebook friend who started charging for photography because he had found his new "passion," which meant he bought a DSLR and took a nice photo of his cat or something. It happens all too frequently.

That said, have you bought a lens?
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Old Sep 4, 2013, 08:53 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by edubya View Post
I'll comment just in case you're still subscribed to this thread. I had forgotten about this!

In any case, I agree that my aside seemed odd. I had probably just looked at another Facebook friend who started charging for photography because he had found his new "passion," which meant he bought a DSLR and took a nice photo of his cat or something. It happens all too frequently.

That said, have you bought a lens?
A little late to this, but:

No new lenses yet. I'm making sure to take my time getting to know my strengths and weaknesses of the focal lengths available with my kit lens. I'm starting a new job soon, and it's in mid-town Manhattan. That said, I'll be getting LOTS of time on the streets.

I feel like 90% of the time, I'm shooting (cropped, btw) at 18mm, the widest of my kit lens. I'll likely hunt down a cheap-enough equal.
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