Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Apr 20, 2013, 06:55 PM   #1
jnpy!$4g3cwk
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
West, Texas disaster

Probably because of the Marathon bombing the West, Texas disaster seems to have not attracted so much comment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...93H02A20130420

So far, 14 confirmed dead, roughly 200 injured, and (edit -- 1-2) people still missing or unaccounted for. (edit -- they apparently got most people accounted for today).

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-mayor...ry?id=18984131


Safety Rules Limited for Small Fertilizer Plants


By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI and JACK GILLUM Associated Press
April 20, 2013 (AP)


Quote:

There were no sprinklers. No firewalls. No water deluge systems. Safety inspections were rare at the fertilizer company in West, Texas, that exploded and killed at least 14 people this week.

This is not unusual.

Small fertilizer plants nationwide fall under the purview of several government agencies, each with a specific concern and none required to coordinate with others on what they have found.

The small distributors — there are as many of 1,150 in Texas alone — are part of a regulatory system that focuses on large installations and industries, though many of the small plants contain enough agricultural chemicals to fuel a major explosion.

---

According to a document filed in 2012 with the Texas Department of State Health Services, the maximum amount of this "extremely hazardous substance" the plant could store in one container was 90 tons, and the most it could have on site was 270 tons. It is unknown how much was onsite at any given time, or at the time of the explosion.

It was also authorized to handle up to 54,000 pounds of anhydrous ammonia, a substance the Texas environmental agency considers flammable and potentially toxic.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/s...lants-19006944

Fertilizer plants would certainly qualify as a potentially hazardous workplace. It is surprising that a residential neighborhood complete with nearby schools was allowed to be built right next to the plant.

There is a BLS PDF here with occupational statistics.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0009.pdf

Over 4000 employees die in workplace accidents every year in the U.S., although it is rare for so many civilians to die.

Last edited by jnpy!$4g3cwk; Apr 20, 2013 at 08:29 PM.
jnpy!$4g3cwk is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20, 2013, 07:14 PM   #2
Toltepeceno
macrumors 65816
 
Toltepeceno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: SMT, Edo MX, MX
Horrible, My best to them.
__________________
Only fanboys use the word "troll".
Saludos!
Toltepeceno is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20, 2013, 08:18 PM   #3
mrkramer
macrumors 601
 
mrkramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere
Hopefully this is enough of a wakeup call to get regulations passed to make sure this doesn't happen again. And if those regulations are already in place and the plant owners were ignoring them then hopefully the owners end up in jail for a very long time.
__________________
"Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind." -Mikhail Gorbachev
mrkramer is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20, 2013, 08:22 PM   #4
Shrink
macrumors Demi-God
 
Shrink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England, USA
Having just gone through a serious bit of nastiness in my area, my heart goes out to the friends and families of the killed and injured.
__________________
Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein
Shrink is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20, 2013, 10:29 PM   #5
samiwas
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
Fertilizer plants would certainly qualify as a potentially hazardous workplace. It is surprising that a residential neighborhood complete with nearby schools was allowed to be built right next to the plant.
This is what shocks me the most. Not only a neighborhood, but a playground was literally less than a football field's length from the three storage tanks. Why on earth would zoning laws allow such a thing? I'm guessing the answer is "Government shouldn't tell people where they can build."
__________________
A lack of planning on your part should not constitute an emergency on mine.
samiwas is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20, 2013, 10:46 PM   #6
vega07
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
This is what shocks me the most. Not only a neighborhood, but a playground was literally less than a football field's length from the three storage tanks. Why on earth would zoning laws allow such a thing? I'm guessing the answer is "Government shouldn't tell people where they can build."
It is my understanding that Texas has terrible zoning laws.
vega07 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 01:32 AM   #7
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
This is what shocks me the most. Not only a neighborhood, but a playground was literally less than a football field's length from the three storage tanks. Why on earth would zoning laws allow such a thing? I'm guessing the answer is "Government shouldn't tell people where they can build."
We also don't know which got built first, the tanks or the playground.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 01:49 AM   #8
Macman45
macrumors G5
 
Macman45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere Back In The Long Ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
Having just gone through a serious bit of nastiness in my area, my heart goes out to the friends and families of the killed and injured.
I feel for these folks too...Fertiliser plants are dangerous places...according to what we know so far, very few proper procedures were in place to protect the workforce in this establishment. These chemical compounds are explosive, and coincidentally are often used in the manufacturer of IED's of the type seen recently in Boston.

I hope they take this company to the cleaners. My best wishes to the families who have lost loved ones in this disaster.
__________________
Thats Not All Folks
Macman45 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 02:00 AM   #9
vega07
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
We also don't know which got built first, the tanks or the playground.
It doesn't matter. A plant shouldn't be built near a school, and a school shouldn't be built near a plant.
vega07 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:17 AM   #10
gsugolfer
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
This is what shocks me the most. Not only a neighborhood, but a playground was literally less than a football field's length from the three storage tanks. Why on earth would zoning laws allow such a thing? I'm guessing the answer is "Government shouldn't tell people where they can build."
Government builds the schools and playgrounds.

Weak argument.
gsugolfer is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:38 AM   #11
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsugolfer View Post
Government builds the schools and playgrounds.

Weak argument.
Governments don't build all playgrounds. An even weaker argument.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:57 AM   #12
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
Looking at the original story it seems to me, to be a case that it had always be alright up to now so why change things. Over a period of time and nothing bad happens people start to relax, their guard goes down, and it's then that disaster strikes.

This is exactly like it was in Enschede back in 2000, with the firework disaster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensched...works_disaster

Hopefully like Enschede some good can come out of this. As of now safety is taken very seriously, and city and town planners will no longer permit dangerous industrial sites anywhere near housing/schools/play areas.

But sadly it nearly always takes a major disaster to bring about change.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'

Last edited by Happybunny; Apr 21, 2013 at 09:09 AM.
Happybunny is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 09:00 AM   #13
gsugolfer
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
Governments don't build all playgrounds. An even weaker argument.
They also don't build all schools.

High odds that they built the ones here, though, seeing as how they build the majority of them.
gsugolfer is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 09:10 AM   #14
NT1440
macrumors G3
 
NT1440's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hartford, CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkramer View Post
Hopefully this is enough of a wakeup call to get regulations passed to make sure this doesn't happen again. And if those regulations are already in place and the plant owners were ignoring them then hopefully the owners end up in jail for a very long time.
The problem is we've defunded federal inspectors so far that they are essentially worthless. While there were state inspections, it seems that OSHA hadn't been to this plant in years.
NT1440 is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 09:16 AM   #15
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsugolfer View Post
They also don't build all schools.

High odds that they built the ones here, though, seeing as how they build the majority of them.
School yea, but not simply playgrounds. Many times playgrounds are privately funded.


This is a small plant, less than 10 employees, in a small farming community. Plants like this, and other types, exist all over the country. They don't explode all the time. It's pretty rare. That town also has a rail line going through it.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 09:30 AM   #16
NT1440
macrumors G3
 
NT1440's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hartford, CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
This is a small plant, less than 10 employees, in a small farming community. Plants like this, and other types, exist all over the country. They don't explode all the time. It's pretty rare. That town also has a rail line going through it.
Small plant, yes. Breaking DHS rules knowingly? You Betcha.

With over 400 lbs of this type of substance you are supposed to report it to the DHS. This plant had over 270 TONS of it, and willfully hid that from regulators :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3121110.html

I know its HuffPo, but the story is actually from Reuters.
NT1440 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 10:00 AM   #17
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
Small plant, yes. Breaking DHS rules knowingly? You Betcha.

With over 400 lbs of this type of substance you are supposed to report it to the DHS. This plant had over 270 TONS of it, and willfully hid that from regulators :

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3121110.html

I know its HuffPo, but the story is actually from Reuters.
Assuming this is correct, I think it goes on to highlight that we don't need new regulations, the ones here were broke, what's needed is enforcement of the ones in place.

And people to not be idiots and do illegal, dangerous things.
eric/ is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 11:12 AM   #18
NT1440
macrumors G3
 
NT1440's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hartford, CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Assuming this is correct, I think it goes on to highlight that we don't need new regulations, the ones here were broke, what's needed is enforcement of the ones in place.

And people to not be idiots and do illegal, dangerous things.
What's needed is for the GOP (and the Dems in toe, we'll call them republican-lite in this day and age) to stop cutting the funding for agencies that do inspection work, only to turn around after disaster and say that the agency was ineffective and should be cut because they can't do their jobs. Well, they can't do their jobs because you guys constantly cut the ****ing funding needed to have the very people needed to do it.

Part of the "starve the beast" strategy over the last 30 years has been exactly this. Find a program you want to shut down, either cut the funding, or better yet get your GOP representative to lead the agency only to sabotage it from the inside.
NT1440 is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 01:38 PM   #19
samiwas
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
We also don't know which got built first, the tanks or the playground.
To my knowledge (hearing from others) and from looking at old maps, the plant has been there for decades, and the neighborhood grew around it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsugolfer View Post
Government builds the schools and playgrounds.

Weak argument.
The argument about building it, or it being the government which apparently allows it?

Neither should happen, and the government as well shouldn't be building schools and playgrounds next to plants like this. Even the housing (more than likely NOT built by the government) shouldn't be that close, but zoning laws apparently allow it. That isn't right.
__________________
A lack of planning on your part should not constitute an emergency on mine.
samiwas is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 02:35 PM   #20
ugahairydawgs
macrumors 68020
 
ugahairydawgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
What's needed is for the GOP (and the Dems in toe, we'll call them republican-lite in this day and age) to stop cutting the funding for agencies that do inspection work, only to turn around after disaster and say that the agency was ineffective and should be cut because they can't do their jobs. Well, they can't do their jobs because you guys constantly cut the ****ing funding needed to have the very people needed to do it.

Part of the "starve the beast" strategy over the last 30 years has been exactly this. Find a program you want to shut down, either cut the funding, or better yet get your GOP representative to lead the agency only to sabotage it from the inside.
Big budgets =/= better work.
ugahairydawgs is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 02:43 PM   #21
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
Big budgets =/= better work.
Hopefully you aren't implying that smaller budgets do.

California may have its problems but zoning idiocy like this isn't one of them.

It's not surprising that in states with lax planning, disasters like this are more common. They don't care about the people who were killed, only the owners of the company. Unfortunately, this probably won't be the last.
__________________
Check out <Peter's family tree!
Ugg is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 02:52 PM   #22
thekev
macrumors 603
 
thekev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
It mentions sprinklers. I would like to know how many elements were not up to current building code. Beyond that it sounds like a failure in city zoning.
__________________
world's largest manufacturer of tin foil hats, none of that aluminum foil crap.
thekev is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 02:52 PM   #23
ugahairydawgs
macrumors 68020
 
ugahairydawgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
Hopefully you aren't implying that smaller budgets do.

California may have its problems but zoning idiocy like this isn't one of them.

It's not surprising that in states with lax planning, disasters like this are more common. They don't care about the people who were killed, only the owners of the company. Unfortunately, this probably won't be the last.
I'm not. I do think that a LOT of government agencies are not run efficiently, so cutting back some of the funding is not necessarily a bad thing.

But bigger budgets do not equal better performance.
ugahairydawgs is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 04:33 PM   #24
Huntn
macrumors 604
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by vega07 View Post
It is my understanding that Texas has terrible zoning laws.
This is evidence that you are correct. Blocks of houses were destroyed by the blast, case closed, er open indefinitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkramer View Post
Hopefully this is enough of a wakeup call to get regulations passed to make sure this doesn't happen again. And if those regulations are already in place and the plant owners were ignoring them then hopefully the owners end up in jail for a very long time.
I head the local Representative to Congress call it a wakeup call, and it was all most laugh worthy. Yes, let's deflect blame as some complete surprise of a disaster that never could be imagined. Except, this is not the first time a fertilizer plant or large quantity of fertilizer has blown up and it's surrounded by homes, a school, and nursing homes?
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2013, 06:35 PM   #25
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekev View Post
It mentions sprinklers. I would like to know how many elements were not up to current building code. Beyond that it sounds like a failure in city zoning.
I thought I read somewhere that they were not required....if so, that is crazy.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
This is evidence that you are correct. Blocks of houses were destroyed by the blast, case closed, er open indefinitely.
Because people can break the law, cause an explosion and kill people?

A plant like that isn't all that dangerous when run correctly. There are gas stations next to schools, airports, railways...

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
What's needed is for the GOP......

Oh yea...it's the republicans' fault again. They screw everything up. Those bastards even have delayed spring in the midwest.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   1 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Texas Poker Club - The most beautiful Texas Poker on Mac icsoft Mac Applications and Mac App Store 1 May 14, 2014 09:11 PM
I guess Texas is still the wild west......WOW!!! LIVEFRMNYC Politics, Religion, Social Issues 84 Jun 12, 2013 11:51 AM
Upgrade disaster dfinecy iOS 6 9 Mar 30, 2013 03:13 PM
Update disaster bearcatrp iPhone 10 Mar 18, 2013 02:07 PM
Windows 8 Disaster Trebuin Windows, Linux & Others on the Mac 36 Nov 29, 2012 08:24 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:55 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC