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Old Apr 21, 2013, 05:13 PM   #1
eric/
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Man jailed for watching cartoons have sex?

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A New Zealand court has sentenced a man to three months in prison for downloading cartoon porn. Ronald Clark has previous convictions for sexually abusing a minor, but the Japanese hentai he watched didnít involve drawings of people.

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Clark's lawyer Roger Bowden described them as "pixies and trolls" that "you knew at a glance weren't human."

Bowden said the conviction for possessing objectionable material was "the law gone mad".

However, while the cartoon characters were elves and pixies, they were also clearly young elves and pixies, which led to concerns the images were linked to child sexual abuse.

Anti-child pornography group ECPAT Child Alert director Alan Bell said the images were illegal because they encouraged people "to migrate from there to the real thing".

"The distribution of it is damaging. You have to ask what impact does it have even if it's not harming [an individual child]."

Bell said it had to be conceded that no child was harmed in the images' production but "it's all part of that spectrum". Cartoon images of child abuse were a "huge" problem in Japan and the practice had started finding its way into computer games, he said.

Ö"The worry is that viewing or distributing such images could support the sexual exploitation of children even if the production of the images did not actually involve the exploitation of any children," said Lincoln University philosophy lecturer Grant Tavinor, who writes on the aesthetics of video games.
Uh. Huh? I noticed he had an abusing a minor charge. Sure that's bad. But him being able to indulge in fantasy without involving those that he fantasizes about (which I think attraction toward younger people is a disease/defect) keeps him from trying to live out those fantasies, IMO.

But still, his actual actions:

A. Involved no children
B. Involved no representation of humans or human children
C. Were drawings

While I don't particularly partake in such pornography, I fail to see how this could possibly be illegal. It's a drawing.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 05:27 PM   #2
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I once got a mail from the CBLDF, about a man stopped on the US/Canada boarder for some Hentai books.

While I do not personally collect or read these books, I cannot condone the censorship.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 05:31 PM   #3
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I once got a mail from the CBLDF, about a man stopped on the US/Canada boarder for some Hentai books.

While I do not personally collect or read these books, I cannot condone the censorship.
I've heard of that too. I think it's banned in Australia, or at least there was serious consideration. I definitely don't agree with the censorship either. It's art. Regardless of whether somebody uses it for their own personal pleasure.

Oh and just before somebody gets in a hissy fit and storms in here and starts saying America this America that, don't bother. This isn't about the US specifically, or NZ specifically, but the censorship and ethical issues over the topic. So none of that nonsense.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 06:35 PM   #4
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I donít agree with it being banned either. People who watch animated CP watch it BECAUSE theyíre pedophiles - They donít become pedophiles BECAUSE they watch it. The whole idea that it encourages child sex abuse doesnít really add up... I mean, itís like saying that gay porn encourages homosexuality.

If anything itíd lower rates of child sex abuse, as many would go for animated child porn over real child porn, due to legal reasons and the fact that children werenít harmed in the making of it.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 06:48 PM   #5
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The only argument that made any sense whatsoever is the argument that it's existence in of itself was damaging to minors - that it's very presence sexualizes children in inappropriate ways. I can agree with that, but to me it reeked more of a "think of the children" cry more than anything since you could make the argument that Playboy does the same thing to women and yet they still exist. I suppose the fact that adults consent to being in Playboy is a valid point, but then again, Playboy involves real people and cartoons for the most part involve no people so there is that too.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 07:17 PM   #6
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This is way too close to "Thought crime".

Cartoons are not people. No one's civil rights were/are being violated.

BS conviction.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 07:26 PM   #7
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let's get the Shrink in here


--edit

you are going to ask why do we need a shrink to lean in on a legal issue. imo NZ attorney general needs a psych consultation in this case

Last edited by needfx; Apr 21, 2013 at 07:35 PM.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 07:36 PM   #8
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let's get the Shrink in here
You called?? I saw the Shrink Signal in the sky!!

I have to go with Technarchy that it does seem like a "thought crime".

From the point of view of the effect on the viewer, I can't speak with any real scientific support, but while watching erotica doesn't cause behavior, I guess it could be argued that it is, in a rather distant sense, "rehearsing" troublesome behavior. Now to contradict myself, some might argue that there is a cathartic effect, reducing the need to act out in reality.

As you can clearly tell, I'm spitballing on this as there is no strong, definitive data on this, and especially when the visual material is cartoon, where no harm is coming to the "participants".

Sorry to be so wishy-washy, but nothing definitive on this that I know of.

Also sorry for the horribly run on sentences. Too many commas, not enough periods...but I'm too lazy to properly edit the whole thing.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 07:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
You called?? I saw the Shrink Signal in the sky!!

I have to go with Technarchy that it does seem like a "thought crime".

From the point of view of the effect on the viewer, I can't speak with any real scientific support, but while watching erotica doesn't cause behavior, I guess it could be argued that it is, in a rather distant sense, "rehearsing" troublesome behavior. Now to contradict myself, some might argue that there is a cathartic effect, reducing the need to act out in reality.

As you can clearly tell, I'm spitballing on this as there is no strong, definitive data on this, and especially when the visual material is cartoon, where no harm is coming to the "participants".

Sorry to be so wishy-washy, but nothing definitive on this that I know of.
Levelling up the thread's IQ is a given, even if your conclusions are inconclusive.

In any case, if this was their selling point* for his conviction, they should really get themselves looked at.

Shrink, you're up.

*Anti-child pornography group ECPAT Child Alert director Alan Bell said the images were illegal because they encouraged people "to migrate from there to the real thing".
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 07:46 PM   #10
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What I would like to know is why was a child molester out of prison ? Anyway, abstaining from porn may have also been been a condition of his release.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:04 PM   #11
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You called?? I saw the Shrink Signal in the sky!!
yes you did
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
This is way too close to "Thought crime".

Cartoons are not people. No one's civil rights were/are being violated.

BS conviction.
He got convicted for his moral views rather than for having broken the law. Of course it's thoughtcrime. I unbellyfeel the conviction fullwise, but hey, think about the children!
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
I donít agree with it being banned either. People who watch animated CP watch it BECAUSE theyíre pedophiles - They donít become pedophiles BECAUSE they watch it. The whole idea that it encourages child sex abuse doesnít really add up... I mean, itís like saying that gay porn encourages homosexuality.

If anything itíd lower rates of child sex abuse, as many would go for animated child porn over real child porn, due to legal reasons and the fact that children werenít harmed in the making of it.
that avatar is suspicious of thoughtcrime
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:07 PM   #14
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I think the only thing that really must be kept in mind is that this was a cartoon. And not only that, the characters depicted were not humans, but mythical creations.

I understand that apparently there was little doubt the the intention of the cartoon was erotic, but it is not even same as depicting human children in cartoon form.

The idea that viewing child pornography "causes" pedophilic behavior is far from proven. It is much more likely that pedophilic impulses or behavior precede the viewing of such material.

As others have pointed out, no children were harmed in the creation of this cartoon.

So, unless I am reading this all wrong (certainly a strong possibility!), this guy got busted for watching a cartoon where no one was harmed, and humans were not depicted. Additionally, he had not committed any inappropriate behavior subsequent to the viewing of the material.

If that is all correct...seems wrong to me to bust him for what he was, or might have been, thinking...which nobody knows but him.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:16 PM   #15
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So cartoons of non-humans having sex who by how they were always depicted to look on the young side= bad.

But, porn with real humans of legal age depicting rape, rough sex, etc = fine.

If they want to argue that the pedophile was rehearsing or whatever for doing something in the real world, then why don't they apply it to real world porn, where the pornstar is in a scene depicting of rape/forced/rough sex? People who watch that are just rapists in training right?
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:27 PM   #16
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So cartoons of non-humans having sex who by how they were always depicted to look on the young side= bad.

But, porn with real humans of legal age depicting rape, rough sex, etc = fine.

If they want to argue that the pedophile was rehearsing or whatever for doing something in the real world, then why don't they apply it to real world porn, where the pornstar is in a scene depicting of rape/forced/rough sex? People who watch that are just rapists in training right?
I don't think that's what I said, it certainly was not what I meant...but it is possible I was unclear.

I said the the pedophilic impulses or behaviors precede the viewing of child pornography...if we can call it that for the moment. I also said that there was no definitive data of any kind that suggests viewing such material causes pedophila.

I made no comment about rape. The is a very different and, in a way, a more complex issue because of the societal attitudes about rape, which are more complex than the attitude toward pedophila...which is pretty much universally condemned.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:31 PM   #17
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I don't think that's what I said, it certainly was not what I meant...but it is possible I was unclear.

I said the the pedophilic impulses or behaviors precede the viewing of child pornography...if we can call it that for the moment. I also said that there was no definitive data of any kind that suggests viewing such material causes pedophila.

I made no comment about rape. The is a very different and, in a way, a more complex issue because of the societal attitudes about rape, which are more complex than the attitude toward pedophila...which is pretty much universally condemned.
It wasn't meant as a reply to you. It was a direct response to the article at hand.

If they want to argue he would have migrated from pixies and trolls to sexually abusing kids, then why not go and arrest people who watch rape/forced/rough sex porn scenes with pornstars? Going with the same train of thought, the person would eventually rape a person.....
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 08:36 PM   #18
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It wasn't meant as a reply to you. It was a direct response to the article at hand.
Sorry, not surprisingly due to my advanced years, the late-ish hour, and the slow deterioration of my cognitive skills...I screwed up.!

Forgive the blunders of a fading old guy...
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 09:09 PM   #19
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Sorry, not surprisingly due to my advanced years, the late-ish hour, and the slow deterioration of my cognitive skills...I screwed up.!

Forgive the blunders of a fading old guy...
It's all good.

Just don't let it happen again.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 09:12 PM   #20
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that avatar is suspicious of thoughtcrime
Eh, maybe it could be twisted round to be... But it doesnít really depict a child.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 10:02 PM   #21
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What I would like to know is why was a child molester out of prison ?
I don't think they are normally sentenced life in prison without the possibility of parole.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 10:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
So cartoons of non-humans having sex who by how they were always depicted to look on the young side= bad.

But, porn with real humans of legal age depicting rape, rough sex, etc = fine.

If they want to argue that the pedophile was rehearsing or whatever for doing something in the real world, then why don't they apply it to real world porn, where the pornstar is in a scene depicting of rape/forced/rough sex? People who watch that are just rapists in training right?
But they were humanoid. Would it be okay if it was cartoon with drawings of human children ? What was his intent ? Was he looking at that with the intent of looking at child porn ? Evidently a judge/da/courts think so. But what is also important is what are the conditions of his release from prison for harming a child previously ? He very well could have been in violation of it. Why wait for him to harm another child. I agree with not convicting someone of thought crimes, but where do you draw the line ?

I fanticized about doing away with my ex (was married to her for 17 years), but I never planned anything out. (Note: I have been remarried for almost seven years, I am over it and have a friendly relationship with her). But what if someone found a notebook with me drawing out plans to bump her off ? It's still a fantasy, but how far does one have to go before others need protection ? Where does actions start and thoughts or fanticies end ? Would I have had to attempt to kill or actually kill someone before action was taken ? There is no doubt that this dude is ****ed in the head, and that he has already harmed a child. How far does he have to go before we stop him ?

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I don't think they are normally sentenced life in prison without the possibility of parole.
I know, and I don't understand why they aren't. There are numerous cases where children were raped and killed by previously convicted child molesters. It needs to stop.
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 10:33 PM   #23
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But they were humanoid. Would it be okay if it was cartoon with drawings of human children ? What was his intent ? Was he looking at that with the intent of looking at child porn ? Evidently a judge/da/courts think so. But what is also important is what are the conditions of his release from prison for harming a child previously ? He very well could have been in violation of it. Why wait for him to harm another child. I agree with not convicting someone of thought crimes, but where do you draw the line ?
It's always a hard question to answer, IMHO. If that is how a person gets off with their fantasy, is it really wrong if they are watching a cartoon depicting kids having sex( though I think it is illegal for cartoons to portray child sex) if that is how far it goes? If that prevents pedo's from actually acting on it, is it wrong since no real kids were harmed?

It's sick of people who actually act on it, don't get me wrong. Even the thought of watching a cartoon of kids having sex makes me sick. But, I have a hard time saying this is wrong if it keeps the person from actually doing it....
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Old Apr 21, 2013, 10:38 PM   #24
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Dear Mr Shrink,

I quite innocently rented a random movie last night: "Killing Them Softly". Since it starred Brad Pitt, I thought it must be okay.

Anyway, it portrayed several Mob killings in excruciating, slow-motion detail.

Does this mean I'm going off the rails? Could I be "rehearsing" to be a hit-man? I'm beside myself with worry. My family awaits your speedy response.

Sincerely,

Anxious in Atlanta
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Old Apr 22, 2013, 01:36 AM   #25
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I've seen far worse than hentai pixie porn. Given that most of it is based on surrealistic, twisted fantasy we should be leaving this on the fiction-pile. I doubt any person into it - no matter how sick they are - will start abducting minors and dress them up as pixies and trolls. That's what pen and paper are for.
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