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Old Apr 23, 2013, 07:18 PM   #1
doubledee
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Making Moutain Lion Recovery DVD

I wanted to clarify some things that simsaladimbamba told me in this thread about getting a new 13" MacBook Pro and creating a Recovery DVD.

So I am not crazy about blowing 4.4 GB of my 6 GB/month data-plan with AT&T, because that equates to about $50!!!!!!!

And I find it insane to use an UN-secured Free Wi-Fi conenction (e.g. McDonalds) to try and download things.

So I called Apple today and the tech was like, "Yes you can go to an Apple store and download a copy of Mountain Lion using our bandwidth, but we have to then *install* it for you. We only offer free Recovery..."

What the hell?!

Why should they care if they download a DMG to my new, empty Seagate drive in my new MacBook Pro and give it back to me, or take even more time and do a Recovery for me?

That seems crazy, although I wouldn't expect less from an Apple Store...

Any ideas on how I might convince them otherwise, and save myself $50 of my data-plan?

I think it sucks how they hold people hostage and not let them have FULL ACCESS to an Operating System that people already bought...

Sincerely,


Debbie
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 07:00 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledee View Post
I wanted to clarify some things that simsaladimbamba told me in this thread about getting a new 13" MacBook Pro and creating a Recovery DVD.

So I am not crazy about blowing 4.4 GB of my 6 GB/month data-plan with AT&T, because that equates to about $50!!!!!!!

And I find it insane to use an UN-secured Free Wi-Fi conenction (e.g. McDonalds) to try and download things.

So I called Apple today and the tech was like, "Yes you can go to an Apple store and download a copy of Mountain Lion using our bandwidth, but we have to then *install* it for you. We only offer free Recovery..."

What the hell?!

Why should they care if they download a DMG to my new, empty Seagate drive in my new MacBook Pro and give it back to me, or take even more time and do a Recovery for me?

That seems crazy, although I wouldn't expect less from an Apple Store...

Any ideas on how I might convince them otherwise, and save myself $50 of my data-plan?

I think it sucks how they hold people hostage and not let them have FULL ACCESS to an Operating System that people already bought...

Sincerely,


Debbie
You could be sharing it with someone who hasn't bought the OS. Makes sense for them to want to install it themselves.

Also, it's your choice to blow $50 if you're not willing to download it at the Apple Store. I've always taken advantage of it, use their wifi for free. Never had any problems with that.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 07:10 AM   #3
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The DMG falls outside of how apple wants you to install/manage OSX. That being said if you're not willing to work within apple's parameters, then go to McDonalds or any other place that offers free wifi.

Edit:
When Lion came out I was saving the DMG just in case, but with the recovery partition and internet recovery I've stopped worrying its never been an issue for me to reinstall the OS
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 07:23 AM   #4
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Have to agree with the OP here, I find it ridiculous that not the whole OS is on the recovery HD, now we have to download it and there are plenty of people with and/or slow internet connections/capped internet.
Most people in the "West" have fast unlimited internet in their houses, but where I am most don't.
It won't cost me $50 but around $5 to buy a nightly 8 GB package here.
Luckily a friend comes over from Europe, he can download it for me, sadly this has to be done in kinda grey area, he does not have a Mac so he has to torrent it.
I can understand if Apple won't install the complete OS in Recovery on small drives although they should so you can burn a copy yourself.
On bigger HD's it is a non issue, just a few GB more.

I send feedback to Apple before, hopefully more people do so, so they put the whole OS on the Recovery Disk.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 07:34 AM   #5
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I send feedback to Apple before, hopefully more people do so, so they put the whole OS on the Recovery Disk.
I'd say the odds of that is rather low. While I'll not argue the point of them doing the recovery partition should be a full install, its clear that there are ways around this as a user.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 07:49 AM   #6
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The reason that the installer downloads files from the internet is twofold:
1. It ensures that you get the latest version with all updates and security patches.
2. It keeps the Recovery Partition at a small and constant size, so Apple don't have to worry about the OS fitting onto the partition.

I recommend downloading the installer app from the App Store -- even if that means buying ML on top of your computer purchase. It's then very easy to maintain a flash drive with the installer "disk" on it. There are many pages with instructions of how to do this.

If you are worried about rogue hackers in McDonalds and Starbucks intercepting your transmissions somehow and spoofing Apple's entire website so they can serve you fake downloads with malware, you can of course check the SHA digest of the download on Apple's website (once you're on a "secure" connection) and compare it with the file you've downloaded.
http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1652
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 08:01 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by benwiggy View Post
1. It ensures that you get the latest version with all updates and security patches.
But keeping the dmg to redo should be an option, and second as by this thread some people are bound by data caps or they don't have the bandwidth to do it.
I'd rather download the OS once, keep the DMG. I then only need to download any updates


Quote:
2. It keeps the Recovery Partition at a small and constant size, so Apple don't have to worry about the OS fitting onto the partition.
Given the current size of the hard drives and even SSDs this issue is rather moot for the most part.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 08:39 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
But keeping the dmg to redo should be an option, and second as by this thread some people are bound by data caps or they don't have the bandwidth to do it.
I'd rather download the OS once, keep the DMG. I then only need to download any updates
Indeed. I was explaining Apple's reasoning. I did not say that wanting to keep the installer was without merit.
The packages can often be found in /Library/Updates, but if they are not there, it shouldn't be too difficult to find them, probably in /tmp or /var.

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Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
Given the current size of the hard drives and even SSDs this issue is rather moot for the most part.
Size of the PARTITION is the issue, not "the fact that drives are big". If Apple put the entire OS installer onto a 4Gb partition, future updates and OS versions would be limited by that size, without on-the-fly repartitioning of your startup drive, which might not be without consequences or errors.
Using a Recovery Partition that downloads the rest of the installer, the OS could be 1TB in size, if needed, and still use a 650Mb Partition.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 08:52 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benwiggy View Post
Indeed. I was explaining Apple's reasoning. I did not say that wanting to keep the installer was without merit.
The packages can often be found in /Library/Updates, but if they are not there, it shouldn't be too difficult to find them, probably in /tmp or /var.


Size of the PARTITION is the issue, not "the fact that drives are big". If Apple put the entire OS installer onto a 4Gb partition, future updates and OS versions would be limited by that size, without on-the-fly repartitioning of your startup drive, which might not be without consequences or errors.
Using a Recovery Partition that downloads the rest of the installer, the OS could be 1TB in size, if needed, and still use a 650Mb Partition.
OS X (Versions-Like 10.7-10.8) doesn't get much bigger over time, it might add a few 100 MB over the lifespan of the version, not much more.
And, it should just be the recovery with the whole OS as a DMG included, not a complete bootable System.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 09:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by justperry View Post
OS X (Versions-Like 10.7-10.8) doesn't get much bigger over time, it might add a few 100 MB over the lifespan of the version, not much more.
And, it should just be the recovery with the whole OS as a DMG included, not a complete bootable System.
Again, my point is that the current method gives Apple flexibility without any self-imposed limits in the future. At some point, that +100Mb is going to be 100Mb too much for any size of partition.
The Installer dmg for 10.9 could be 1 terabyte**. But still run off a 650Mb partition.

** Hyperbole for the sake of making the point. Please don't argue that 10.9 won't be on a 1Tb DMG. I know.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 09:25 AM   #11
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Again, my point is that the current method gives Apple flexibility without any self-imposed limits in the future. At some point, that +100Mb is going to be 100Mb too much for any size of partition.
The Installer dmg for 10.9 could be 1 terabyte**. But still run off a 650Mb partition.

** Hyperbole for the sake of making the point. Please don't argue that 10.9 won't be on a 1Tb DMG. I know.
I did get your point but I also pointed out that plenty of people can not easily download 4.5 GB.
I have a 2012 Mini, bought it in Singapore, only upon arrival in Indonesia I saw the Recovery HD is just a watered down OS and I have to download the complete OS.
Give people the option, If I were in Europe I could easily download the Installer in 20 Minutes, here it takes me several hours (If Lucky) and I have to pay for it, much more than in Europe where most providers have "unlimited" Data.
Sorry, but Apple still thinks too much the "American" way, plenty of people in Asia for instance can buy Apple's computers now but the internet in many places is not up to speed here.
If someone gets into troubles here it could be days to solve this instead of an hour or so by reinstalling from Recovery HD with the complete OS.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 09:42 AM   #12
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Sorry, but Apple still thinks too much the "American" way, plenty of people in Asia for instance can buy Apple's computers now but the internet in many places is not up to speed here.
From what I read here, many Americans have expensive and/or slow internet connections!

Software Updates have been available primarily or only as download since the late 90s. It's not unreasonable for the complete OS to be available that way too. Apple has never sat on the baseline of minimum requirements.
Apple offered Lion as a USB disk, but apparently sales were so disappointing that it wasn't worthwhile producing a disk for ML.

It sucks that your internet provision is poor, but that's not necessarily Apple's responsibility to sort out. ;-)

All the best
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 10:40 AM   #13
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You could be sharing it with someone who hasn't bought the OS. Makes sense for them to want to install it themselves.
Except that Apple makes their $$$ off of hardware - unlike Microsoft - so I don't see why they are so concerned. (Mountain Lion is $20, not $200...)


Quote:
Also, it's your choice to blow $50 if you're not willing to download it at the Apple Store. I've always taken advantage of it, use their wifi for free. Never had any problems with that.
Free Wi-Fi is NOT secure.

All I need is to have some do a Man-In-The-Middle attack, slip in some Back-Door, and then I'd be screwed from the get-go?!

Downloading an entire operating system over an UN-secured Internet connection breaks every rule there is in security!

Apple should be more sensitive of that...


Debbie

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
The DMG falls outside of how apple wants you to install/manage OSX. That being said if you're not willing to work within apple's parameters, then go to McDonalds or any other place that offers free wifi.
Anyone downloading an operating system at McDonalds deserves to get hacked.


Quote:
Edit:
When Lion came out I was saving the DMG just in case, but with the recovery partition and internet recovery I've stopped worrying its never been an issue for me to reinstall the OS
Where is the "Recovery Partition"?

I assume it is part of the factory HDD, right?

Or is it on maybe a secondary SSD in my MacBook Pro that I could still access with my new, bare HDD installed?


Debbie

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by justperry View Post
Have to agree with the OP here, I find it ridiculous that not the whole OS is on the recovery HD, now we have to download it and there are plenty of people with and/or slow internet connections/capped internet.
Most people in the "West" have fast unlimited internet in their houses, but where I am most don't.
It won't cost me $50 but around $5 to buy a nightly 8 GB package here.
Luckily a friend comes over from Europe, he can download it for me, sadly this has to be done in kinda grey area, he does not have a Mac so he has to torrent it.
I can understand if Apple won't install the complete OS in Recovery on small drives although they should so you can burn a copy yourself.
On bigger HD's it is a non issue, just a few GB more.

I send feedback to Apple before, hopefully more people do so, so they put the whole OS on the Recovery Disk.
I don't see why they can't put Mountain Lion on DVD, charge me $20, and be done with the damn thing?!

THAT is a fair compromise, and it helps Apple meet its goals and Debbie meet here goals...


Debbie
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 11:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by doubledee View Post
Free Wi-Fi is NOT secure.
All I need is to have some do a Man-In-The-Middle attack, slip in some Back-Door, and then I'd be screwed from the get-go?!
Downloading an entire operating system over an UN-secured Internet connection breaks every rule there is in security!
I've already shown you how you can verify the security of the download using an SHA digest. I would also suggest that some of your concerns about security are unnecessarily excessive.

To recap: On the rare occasions that you might need to reinstall the OS, your choices are:
1. Do it there and then at an Apple store. Unacceptable to you.
2. Download it at a public wifi spot. Unacceptable to you.
3. Pay the extra to go over the limit on your data plan. Unacceptable to you.

I'm not sure what more can be suggested.

All the best
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Last edited by benwiggy; Apr 24, 2013 at 11:46 AM.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 11:54 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by benwiggy View Post
I've already shown you how you can verify the security of the download using an SHA digest.
And I didn't see that at the time of my last response.

You may have a point on using the SHA digest.


Quote:
To recap: On the rare occasions that you might need to reinstall the OS, your choices are:
1. Do it there and then at an Apple store. Unacceptable to you.
2. Download it at a public wifi spot. Unacceptable to you.
3. Pay the extra to go over the limit on your data plan. Unacceptable to you.

I'm not sure what more can be suggested.

All the best
Looks like I'll have to pony up and using my secure Hotspot to download Mountain Lion, or find someone with a DSL line...

Or, come to think of it, I was planning on buying WiTopia this week, and maybe I could use that in conjunction with Free Wi-Fi...


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Old Apr 24, 2013, 12:00 PM   #16
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or find someone with a DSL line...
Only if you can trust them, of course!

And how do you know you can trust WiTopia? All it is is a secure connection to their servers, and they decrypt it and send it on to the rest of the world. It's no different from https, really, except without WiTopia as your "man-in-the-middle".
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 12:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by doubledee View Post
Except that Apple makes their $$$ off of hardware - unlike Microsoft - so I don't see why they are so concerned. (Mountain Lion is $20, not $200...)




Free Wi-Fi is NOT secure.

All I need is to have some do a Man-In-The-Middle attack, slip in some Back-Door, and then I'd be screwed from the get-go?!

Downloading an entire operating system over an UN-secured Internet connection breaks every rule there is in security!

Apple should be more sensitive of that...


Debbie

----------



Anyone downloading an operating system at McDonalds deserves to get hacked.




Where is the "Recovery Partition"?

I assume it is part of the factory HDD, right?

Or is it on maybe a secondary SSD in my MacBook Pro that I could still access with my new, bare HDD installed?


Debbie

----------



I don't see why they can't put Mountain Lion on DVD, charge me $20, and be done with the damn thing?!

THAT is a fair compromise, and it helps Apple meet its goals and Debbie meet here goals...


Debbie
No offense but from this and other posts of yours, you seem quite paranoid..or overly cautious. Either way.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 01:24 PM   #18
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Only if you can trust them, of course!

And how do you know you can trust WiTopia? All it is is a secure connection to their servers, and they decrypt it and send it on to the rest of the world. It's no different from https, really, except without WiTopia as your "man-in-the-middle".
Oops!! Yep, I was wrong on that one. (Was thinking WiTopia would give me "End-to-End Encryption", but you are correct in that it does not...)


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Old Apr 24, 2013, 01:26 PM   #19
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Anyone downloading an operating system at McDonalds deserves to get hacked.
Please explain. Its a disk image that is downloading, why would someone deserve to get hacked for doing such a task
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 01:42 PM   #20
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No offense but from this and other posts of yours, you seem quite paranoid..or overly cautious. Either way.
I'm buying a new MacBook Pro so that I can use it as a *dedicated* machine to manage my servers and website while I am on-the-road thousands of miles away from home.

You're *damn right* I'm worried about the decisions I make and how I set things up!!!

Security is a funny thing... Make one mistake and you (and all of your customer data) could go *poof*!!!

Am I "paranoid"? Yes.

Am I "paralyzed"? No.

I am new to security and every day I learn something new, I discover how much I do not know, which only adds to my paranoia.

However, on nearly anything I have posted in these forums, I think my questions - and concerns - are *reasonable*.

And you can laugh all you want, but at least I have the character and work-ethic to try and do things in the most secure way possible. That means always being a little paranoid, and definitely always asking lots of questions, and never taking things at face-value.

I don't want to end up like Twitter, Sony, Heartland Payment Systems, TJX, and so on...

Sincerely,


Debbie

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
Please explain. Its a disk image that is downloading, why would someone deserve to get hacked for doing such a task
As I understand things...

When a "Man-in-the-Middle" attack occurs, a hacker is able to see and capture "packets" of data as they pass by en route from Point A to Point B.

During such an attack, not only can a hacker "sniff" what is going buy, he/she could also *insert* extra packets of data, thus ultimately tampering with whatever you were downloading.

I suppose that if you take BenWiggy's advice and do that SHA1 Check-Sum thing, you're pretty safe, but I just feel overly concerned about something going wrong with downloading and installing an entire Operating System.

I mean, that is not a place you want to mess up?! (Especially considering the reason I am buying a new Mac, as described above.)

Again, I'm no expert here, but I can tell you that every security person I have spoken to in the last few months has told me I was a fool for *ever* using Free Wi-Fi!!

And it startled me, that I went out and invested in a Mobile Hotspot with AT&T, and will be buying something like WiTopia or HideMyAss shortly.

It is also why I have been bugging people on here about those topics and FDE.

Hey, I realize any time you do anything with computers you are at risk. But I also know that probably 80-90% of the risks can be mitigated if you do some simple things. And NOT downloading things from McDonalds on their Free Wi-Fi is definitely one of those things.

It sounds like others here disagree. Hey, it's your Mac and your Data, not mine...

Sincerely,


Debbie
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 01:48 PM   #21
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During such an attack, not only can a hacker "sniff" what is going buy, he/she could also *insert* extra packets of data, thus ultimately tampering with whatever you were downloading.
All that will do is corrupt the installer. I can see checking your bank account or doing something along the lines on a public wifi - even then SSL should generally stop most hackers from sniffing the packets. If a hacker was able to insert packets to compromise an OS install or insert malware into the downloading installer then clearly they're well beyond normal hacking capabilities and wouldn't be wasting there time sniffing out free wifi at McDonalds.

My point downloading a large program from the wifi poses little risks and your comment about being deserved to get hacked is off base - just my $.02
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 03:02 PM   #22
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All that will do is corrupt the installer. I can see checking your bank account or doing something along the lines on a public wifi - even then SSL should generally stop most hackers from sniffing the packets.
A connection with your bank would be over HTTPS, and thus there would be an encrypted tunnel from your laptop to the bank.

Supposedly that is safe, but I wouldn't do it.


Quote:
If a hacker was able to insert packets to compromise an OS install or insert malware into the downloading installer then clearly they're well beyond normal hacking capabilities and wouldn't be wasting there time sniffing out free wifi at McDonalds.

My point downloading a large program from the wifi poses little risks and your comment about being deserved to get hacked is off base - just my $.02
You could be right. I'm just being extra cautious. After all, if I wasn't going to take security to the next level, then I'd just use this MacBook to manage my web server, and *hope* that I didn't pick something up in years past.

But if I'm going to spend $1,500+ and and go to the trouble I have so far, then it makes sense to "leave no stone unturned"...


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Old Apr 24, 2013, 03:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by doubledee View Post
A connection with your bank would be over HTTPS, and thus there would be an encrypted tunnel from your laptop to the bank.

Supposedly that is safe, but I wouldn't do it.




You could be right. I'm just being extra cautious. After all, if I wasn't going to take security to the next level, then I'd just use this MacBook to manage my web server, and *hope* that I didn't pick something up in years past.

But if I'm going to spend $1,500+ and and go to the trouble I have so far, then it makes sense to "leave no stone unturned"...


Debbie
He is right.
That being said, buy a USB drive. I believe it needs to be 8 GB. Then search for Lion Disk Maker, as previously mentioned. Back up your current Snow Leopard machine to an external hard drive. I recommend using Carbon Copy over TM. Make sure you're not connected to a network while doing this.
After backing up, boot off your SL install disc. Open Disk Utility and do a 35 pass erase of your hard drive. When it finishes (some time next week) re install SL I to your hard drive. Then, find a source of free Wi-Fi. Sitting outside an Apple store will do. Start up onto SL, and update to 10.6.8. After, open the App Store and download/pay for Mountain Lion. You will need to setup an Apple ID for this, sorry. Find the Mountion Lion DMG on your computer, then using Disk Maker to create a USB install disk using your flash drive from earlier. You now have an install disk for 10.8.3, which will work with your new MBP and any other Mac (a distinct advantage to the older grey discs that shipped with Macs).
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