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Old Apr 24, 2013, 05:57 PM   #1
Mord
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A New Drug Policy (the end of the war on drugs)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/drugpolicyreform

So, this looks like a step in the right direction
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 06:02 PM   #2
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http://www.whitehouse.gov/ondcp/drugpolicyreform

So, this looks like a step in the right direction
I so want you to be right, but my sad cynicism leads me to believe that the anti-science ignorance will make necessary legislation impossible.

I will be very happy to be completely wrong...
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 06:04 PM   #3
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I so want you to be right, but my sad cynicism leads me to believe that the anti-science ignorance will make necessary legislation impossible.

I will be very happy to be completely wrong...
I wasn't even necessarily thinking of full legalisation. While I'm definitely for that I'm more happy about the paradigm shift away from incarceration. It's a human rights issue and tens of thousands of people are gravely suffering for exercising dominion over their own bodies.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 06:15 PM   #4
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I wasn't even necessarily thinking of full legalisation. While I'm definitely for that I'm more happy about the paradigm shift away from incarceration. It's a human rights issue and tens of thousands of people are gravely suffering for exercising dominion over their own bodies.
I'd be happier about the shift away from totally irrational policies to a scientific paradigm...but I'm still doubtful about that occurring in any significant way.

Again...I hope I'm proven wrong.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 06:16 PM   #5
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At the other extreme, drug legalization also runs counter to a public health and safety approach to drug policy.
Pretty much what the prohibitionists said about alcohol. So much for that. But at least we got NASCAR out of it.



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Old Apr 24, 2013, 06:25 PM   #6
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I read through that. Unfortunately it puts marijuana in the same wide spectrum as cocaine and other hard drugs.

Nothing new just prez speak.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 06:45 PM   #7
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Nothing new just prez speak.
Apparently so,
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Taking a "smart on crime" approach to drug enforcement. Drugs and crime are often linked, which is why addressing serious drug related crime and violence will always be a vital component of our plan to protect public health and safety in America. But at the end of the day, we cannot arrest our way out of the drug problem. The Obama Administration has made clear we will not focus limited Federal drug enforcement resources on individual drug users. Instead, our drug policy emphasizes the expansion of innovative "smart on crime" strategies proven to help break the cycle of drug use, crime, arrest, and incarceration.
The doublespeak does present significant reading comprehension challenges.

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I wasn't even necessarily thinking of full legalisation. While I'm definitely for that I'm more happy about the paradigm shift away from incarceration. It's a human rights issue and tens of thousands of people are gravely suffering for exercising dominion over their own bodies.
The problem is, good executive policy can be fragile. In three and a half years, we could have some sort of palintologist in the WH, who would just reverse the policy and take us back to where we were.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 07:26 PM   #8
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Apparently so,
The doublespeak does present significant reading comprehension challenges.



The problem is, good executive policy can be fragile. In three and a half years, we could have some sort of palintologist in the WH, who would just reverse the policy and take us back to where we were.
Read the whole pdf document and you will see what I'm talking about.

Or read this :

http://blog.norml.org/2013/04/11/whi...and-treatment/
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 08:01 PM   #9
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I think the best shot is legalising at least Marijuana. I think doing this will make many people think twice before going to stronger and illegal drugs, if they know they have cheap, legal and safe access to marijuana.

If you ask me, government needs to stop the drug war (causing so many deaths and expenses) by legalising all drugs and then only focus on the problem of addiction. Which, drugs being legal or not, is and will happen.

I don't think legalising drugs would result in a drastic increase in users. At least not with drugs like cocaine. But legalising drugs does give the government easier access to the users and thus being able to give earlier treatment to addicts.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 11:43 PM   #10
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It's always baffled me that marijuana and LSD are illegal yet cigarettes and alcohol (which are far more harmful) are legal.
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Old Apr 24, 2013, 11:55 PM   #11
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It's always baffled me that marijuana and LSD are illegal yet cigarettes and alcohol (which are far more harmful) are legal.
I agree with marijuana, but LSD is very unpredictable.

If there were as many LSD users as cigg smokers and alcohol users, we would see a huge number of LSD related injuries and fatality in the short and long run.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 12:10 AM   #12
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I agree with marijuana, but LSD is very unpredictable.

If there were as many LSD users as cigg smokers and alcohol users, we would see a huge number of LSD related injuries and fatality in the short and long run.
I agree that LSD is unpredictable, but related to injuries and fatalities? How's that?
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 12:45 AM   #13
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I agree that LSD is unpredictable, but related to injuries and fatalities? How's that?
Well suicide & homicide just to name a few. Would you rather have a drunk person or someone tripping off LSD driving you around?

Also some users(mostly regular and/or bad trippers) are known to have seizures, black outs, and flashbacks long after usage. Sometimes at the worst possible times, like driving, swimming, and etc.

LSD also increases blood pressure and heart rate. This can be bad for those with any medical conditions or mixed drug and alcohol use.

It's also very easy to develop a tolerance of LSD, which will influence the user to increase levels taken at one time.

Last edited by LIVEFRMNYC; Apr 25, 2013 at 12:52 AM.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 12:48 AM   #14
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I agree that LSD is unpredictable, but related to injuries and fatalities? How's that?
He was suggesting that if legal, there would be accidents involving people tripping their nuts off.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 12:54 AM   #15
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He was suggesting that if legal, there would be accidents involving people tripping their nuts off.
That was the first thing that came to mind. LOL
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 01:33 AM   #16
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I don't think legalising drugs would result in a drastic increase in users. At least not with drugs like cocaine. But legalising drugs does give the government easier access to the users and thus being able to give earlier treatment to addicts.
I don't either but there is a lot of money to be made by criminalizing the market and everyone involved. which will make it even harder to make it happen. The consumption is already at a profitable high and legalizing would make it plummet at some point after the legalization forcing the associated "lobby" to fight even harder to keep the war on drugs going.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 01:34 AM   #17
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Well suicide & homicide just to name a few. Would you rather have a drunk person or someone tripping off LSD driving you around?

Also some users(mostly regular and/or bad trippers) are known to have seizures, black outs, and flashbacks long after usage. Sometimes at the worst possible times, like driving, swimming, and etc.

LSD also increases blood pressure and heart rate. This can be bad for those with any medical conditions or mixed drug and alcohol use.

It's also very easy to develop a tolerance of LSD, which will influence the user to increase levels taken at one time.
LSD, by a wide margin, though obviously neither.

LSD is one of the safest drugs in existence, I don't see how more widespread use would increase the number of incidents per user. Pretty much everything you've mentioned is a wild exaggeration of DARE stye fear mongering.

It's very difficult to maintain a tolerance to LSD and even if you have one being on more LSD to trip doesn't really make any difference to anything but how much money you need to spend on acid to get high.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 02:27 AM   #18
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LSD, by a wide margin, though obviously neither.

LSD is one of the safest drugs in existence, I don't see how more widespread use would increase the number of incidents per user. Pretty much everything you've mentioned is a wild exaggeration of DARE stye fear mongering.
So safe it should be used while operating machinery? So safe that it doesn't affect people mentally, during and long after? What about seizures as a possible side effect? I guess that's safe too huh.

Besides the long term physical effects of drinking heavy and alcohol, LSD can actually impair a person equal or more than someone who's heavily drunk. Yea that's pretty safe.

I'm not throwing out no fear mongering. I'm simply speaking truth.

And there's no such thing as exaggeration of things that happened, regardless of any frequency.

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It's very difficult to maintain a tolerance to LSD and even if you have one being on more LSD to trip doesn't really make any difference to anything but how much money you need to spend on acid to get high.
It's actually very easy if your a regular user. And I'm speaking from my own past experience. LSD might not form a physical habit, but any user can form a mental habit as I once did.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 02:49 AM   #19
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I think this article from the BBC covers this pretty well.

Headline UK figures of deaths per user per year.
  • Tobacco - 1 death per 87 users per year
  • Heroin - 1 death per 430 users per year
  • Alcohol - 1 death per 1,000 users per year
  • Cocaine - 1 death per 3,600 users per year
  • Ecstasy - 1 death per 19,000 users per year.
  • Cannabis - 1 death per 3,000,000 users per year
  • LSD - 0 deaths.

So basically the most dangerous drugs are the legal ones! And I'm sure Heroins death toll would drop if it was legal as the dosage would be better controlled.

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So safe it should be used while operating machinery?
I guess you want to ban Alcohol .

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LSD, by a wide margin, though obviously neither.
Lets face it I'm sure some people drive after taking LSD - and if it caused accidents then it would be likely to be widely reported.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 03:21 AM   #20
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So safe it should be used while operating machinery? So safe that it doesn't affect people mentally, during and long after? What about seizures as a possible side effect? I guess that's safe too huh.

Besides the long term physical effects of drinking heavy and alcohol, LSD can actually impair a person equal or more than someone who's heavily drunk. Yea that's pretty safe.

I'm not throwing out no fear mongering. I'm simply speaking truth.

And there's no such thing as exaggeration of things that happened, regardless of any frequency.



It's actually very easy if your a regular user. And I'm speaking from my own past experience. LSD might not form a physical habit, but any user can form a mental habit as I once did.
Any drug can impair a person as much as alcohol even caffeine though usually most people do not imbibe enough to be that intoxicated. Your statements are pretty meaningless here, the times I've dosed heavy I've always found a safe space, laid down and let the experience wash over me.

Seizures? All sorts of activities can trigger seizures there isn't a significant connection beyond that of any psychoactive.

You're talking about fringe cases here, predominantly LSD is not a problem drug, sure it can be habit forming if you enjoy it that much but that's about as much as a public health issue as people enjoying any leisure activity with mild risk.

Frequency is absolutely paramount here. There are a lot of people in the world and you'll always find some who react in one way or other to things the vast majority are fine with. You seem to accept that cannabis legalisation makes sense which is obviously far more habit forming than LSD, just look at usage statistics.

Hell myself whenever I've tried cannabis it's induced what I can only describe as a mild transient psychotic episode, it doesn't agree with everyone and I'd heavily argue that the harms presented by it eclipse LSD by a wide margin. I wouldn't advocate against legalisation though as despite my own personal feelings on the substance I realise that prohibition makes absolutely no sense and for the most part those that wish to smoke it are going to.

Why are you so terrified of LSD and so intent on ignoring the reality that it is a remarkably innocuous substance? I'm not saying the things you mention have never happened, just that where they have they've been massively overblown.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 03:52 AM   #21
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Well suicide & homicide just to name a few. Would you rather have a drunk person or someone tripping off LSD driving you around?
Definitely the person driving under the influence of LSD.

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Also some users(mostly regular and/or bad trippers) are known to have seizures, black outs, and flashbacks long after usage. Sometimes at the worst possible times, like driving, swimming, and etc.
That's never happened to me.

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LSD also increases blood pressure and heart rate. This can be bad for those with any medical conditions or mixed drug and alcohol use.
I agree with the increased heart rate, especially after dropping 1700 micrograms, but I'm not sure about the increased blood pressure. I'd recommend limiting the dose to 300 micrograms; trust me on that.

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It's also very easy to develop a tolerance of LSD, which will influence the user to increase levels taken at one time.
The drug doesn't work that way; a person either trips or they don't. The drugs feeds off a person's vitamin storage. If a person trips for 15 hours and then goes to sleep, he or she won't be able to trip the next day because his or her vitamin storage will be fully depleted. It's a once a week drug whether the person likes it or not. Those vitamin packs they sell on the counter at 7-11, those are there for a reason.

Personal note:

LSD is a very powerful drug; it heightens a person's senses dramatically. Your sense of smell, taste, hearing, and self awareness will be greatly enhanced to super human levels. You'll be able peer down into another person's soul and read them like a book. The problem is though, you'll be able to see deep down into yourself as well; and if you don't like what you see in yourself, that's when the drug becomes a problem. People are always trying to run away from themselves and their worries, but while on LSD, you can't do that; it won't let you. I call it the "Catch 22 drug." Your life has to be in order and you have to be accepting of yourself in order to have a good trip while on the drug, but if your life is in order and you're already accepting of yourself, you don't need the drug...
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 04:40 AM   #22
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I think this article from the BBC covers this pretty well.

Headline UK figures of deaths per user per year.
  • Tobacco - 1 death per 87 users per year
  • Heroin - 1 death per 430 users per year
  • Alcohol - 1 death per 1,000 users per year
  • Cocaine - 1 death per 3,600 users per year
  • Ecstasy - 1 death per 19,000 users per year.
  • Cannabis - 1 death per 3,000,000 users per year
  • LSD - 0 deaths.

So basically the most dangerous drugs are the legal ones! And I'm sure Heroins death toll would drop if it was legal as the dosage would be better controlled.
Those statistics are DIRECT physical causes. Many suicides are thought to be linked to LSD usage, but that's hard to scientifically prove.

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I guess you want to ban Alcohol .
Actually I don't. But I do think the focus of limiting soft drinks should be geared more towards Alcohol.


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Lets face it I'm sure some people drive after taking LSD - and if it caused accidents then it would be likely to be widely reported.
That's cause LSD while driving is much rare vs other drugs. Also LSD is more of a party drug, meaning most users were probably drinking and taking other drug too. Police always test for drinking first.


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Any drug can impair a person as much as alcohol even caffeine though usually most people do not imbibe enough to be that intoxicated. Your statements are pretty meaningless here, the times I've dosed heavy I've always found a safe space, laid down and let the experience wash over me.
Comparing LSD effects to caffeine? You know damn well what I mean by impaired.

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Seizures? All sorts of activities can trigger seizures there isn't a significant connection beyond that of any psychoactive.
There's no real study that proves a connection, but there is no study that disproves it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502729/

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=5549



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You're talking about fringe cases here, predominantly LSD is not a problem drug, sure it can be habit forming if you enjoy it that much but that's about as much as a public health issue as people enjoying any leisure activity with mild risk.

Frequency is absolutely paramount here. There are a lot of people in the world and you'll always find some who react in one way or other to things the vast majority are fine with. You seem to accept that cannabis legalisation makes sense which is obviously far more habit forming than LSD, just look at usage statistics.

Hell myself whenever I've tried cannabis it's induced what I can only describe as a mild transient psychotic episode, it doesn't agree with everyone and I'd heavily argue that the harms presented by it eclipse LSD by a wide margin. I wouldn't advocate against legalisation though as despite my own personal feelings on the substance I realise that prohibition makes absolutely no sense and for the most part those that wish to smoke it are going to.

Why are you so terrified of LSD and so intent on ignoring the reality that it is a remarkably innocuous substance? I'm not saying the things you mention have never happened, just that where they have they've been massively overblown.
I'm not so terrified of LSD, but calling LSD a safe drug is freaking ridiculous. Anything that impairs your mind, is unpredictable, and has the capability of causing flashbacks, depression, seizures, and etc is not a safe drug.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/r...s/lysergic.htm

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That's never happened to me.
Never happened to me neither, but I'll be foolish to think it can't.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 07:27 AM   #23
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Comparing LSD effects to caffeine? You know damn well what I mean by impaired.
The symptoms of caffeine overdose and toxicity are pretty nasty and are absolutely comparable to LSD in terms of impairment. Hell myself I get stomach cramps from consuming caffeine that make me physically impaired in a way that 100ug of acid never would.


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There's no real study that proves a connection, but there is no study that disproves it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502729/

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=5549
No significant connection then.





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I'm not so terrified of LSD, but calling LSD a safe drug is freaking ridiculous. Anything that impairs your mind, is unpredictable, and has the capability of causing flashbacks, depression, seizures, and etc is not a safe drug.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/r...s/lysergic.htm
Terrified is perhaps a strong word here but I still think you're splitting hairs on the appropriateness of "safe" Nothing is safe, things can be relatively safe and statistically unlikely to cause harm, two statements I think apply to LSD.

By your definition there is no "safe" drug, every drug has side effects of some sort or another and singling out LSD is completely irrational given all available data, especially given you cited pot as the drug that it's worse than.

Both are relatively harmless drugs, hell if you look at drug harm research pretty much every chart showing relative harms of drugs places LSD near the bottom often far below cannabis.

Last edited by Mord; Apr 25, 2013 at 07:58 AM.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 08:33 AM   #24
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Legalize marijuana. Take other recreational drugs on a case by case basis. Stop throwing end users in jail, ruining many of their lives and treat it like the health issue it is. We don't lock you up for drinking, not until you get behind the wheel and are caught or get into an accident. That's an important distinction that should be established for drug use.

Let's see how long Obama's drug policies last if the next President is a member of the "lock'm up" GOP.
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Old Apr 25, 2013, 09:21 AM   #25
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Also some users(mostly regular and/or bad trippers) are known to have seizures, black outs, and flashbacks long after usage. Sometimes at the worst possible times, like driving, swimming, and etc.
[Citation Needed]

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There's no real study that proves a connection, but there is no study that disproves it.
There's no real study that proves you aren't completely talking out of your arse, but there is no study that disproves it.
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