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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:15 PM   #1
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Boing 747 Crashes in Afganistan

It looks like it happened on takeoff, a cargo carrier, possibly a shift in cargo (pure speculation). It also looks like they were in the process of stalling when...



Sad anytime people parish in an accident.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:17 PM   #2
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here's a link to the story.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:23 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
It looks like it happened on takeoff, a cargo carrier, possibly a shift in cargo (pure speculation). It also looks like they were in the process of recovering when...

YouTube: video

Sad anytime people parish in an accident.

Doesn't look like they tried to recover. Plane stalled and went into the ground. Don't see where they initiated a stall recovery. The nose coming down was a result of the stall. They did manage to get the plane level, but the plane was still stalled all the way into the ground.

I also support the cargo shift theory. Wasn't properly secured, pilots rotated, cargo went to the tail, pilots couldn't lower the nose( due to the severe rear CG), and then the plane stalled.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:27 PM   #4
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Why is the guy so eerily quiet on the YouTube video? You'd think that if you saw something like that happen right in front of you you would say "Hly ****" or something. No?
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:37 PM   #5
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Why is the guy so eerily quiet on the YouTube video? You'd think that if you saw something like that happen right in front of you you would say "Hly ****" or something. No?
He does say the F-word at one point.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
It looks like it happened on takeoff, a cargo carrier, possibly a shift in cargo (pure speculation). It also looks like they were in the process of recovering when...

YouTube: video

Sad anytime people parish in an accident.

It did happen on takeoff. National Air Cargo. NCR102, and they couldn't recover from this.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46183bb4&opt=0
http://www.nycaviation.com/2013/04/n.../#.UX_tKqLlZ8E
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...nistan-385280/
http://flightaware.com/squawks/link/...0_First_Flight

Initial reports indicate that cargo may have shifted on in the climb out, leading to to their being enough weight aft of the 744F to pitch up and stall. Not enough altitude nor speed to recover from this one.

Already willing to fire the first salve, the Taliban are wanting to claim responsibility for this, though nothing substantiates their claim.

Sadly enough, this happens 25 years to the day of the first 747-400 flight.

BL.

Last edited by dejo; Apr 30, 2013 at 06:45 PM. Reason: quoted post edited.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 06:58 PM   #7
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If this was caused by shifting cargo (as seems at least plausible) then its somewhat surprising to me.

These were military vehicles being shipped out, and you would think by now the various uniformed and civilian loadmasters and ground staff would have the necessary tools, equipment, and procedures in place to make sure that something like that never, ever happened.

Then again, Bagram is still technically a war-zone. Planes taking off from there have to sometimes perform a flight pattern designed to avoid ground fire or other hazards. Bagram is also almost 5000 ft above sea level, further complicating take off and landing operations.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:04 PM   #8
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That looks insane. Very little reaction from the guy though I would have been freaking out!

I was part of a stall test in a private jet, that was scary, but performed at a high altitude so recovering did not take long and it was absolutely safe. It was awkward to not feel like you are climbing anymore and then turn nose down. The pilots obviously knew what was coming and they were still very tense, you cant imagine how the pilots of that 747 would have felt if it stalls all of a sudden.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:06 PM   #9
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God damn.. poor people...
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:18 PM   #10
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possible that a sniper took out a pilot on takeoff causing it to nose up?
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rocknblogger View Post
Why is the guy so eerily quiet on the YouTube video? You'd think that if you saw something like that happen right in front of you you would say "Hly ****" or something. No?
My son in the USAF says it looks like a dash cam on a security humvee. Apparently the driver had the discipline not to verbalize?

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Originally Posted by vrDrew View Post
If this was caused by shifting cargo (as seems at least plausible) then its somewhat surprising to me.

These were military vehicles being shipped out, and you would think by now the various uniformed and civilian loadmasters and ground staff would have the necessary tools, equipment, and procedures in place to make sure that something like that never, ever happened.

Then again, Bagram is still technically a war-zone. Planes taking off from there have to sometimes perform a flight pattern designed to avoid ground fire or other hazards. Bagram is also almost 5000 ft above sea level, further complicating take off and landing operations.
I'll tell you my impression is that there are some, what I consider fly by night operators out there who push the limits. I'm not saying this operator is one of them. And I don't know how much in the way of USAF personnel vs Contractors were involved. When I functioned as a Flight Engineer on a B747 Cargo plane, one of my primary preflight duties was to walk the cargo hold and make sure everything was secured properly. I'm not sure who was doing the loading, and I'm not sure who did the flight inspection if it was done at all, but I think it can be surmised that if loading is not done properly, without proper oversight, this can be the end result.


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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Doesn't look like they tried to recover. Plane stalled and went into the ground. Don't see where they initiated a stall recovery. The nose coming down was a result of the stall. They did manage to get the plane level, but the plane was still stalled all the way into the ground.

I also support the cargo shift theory. Wasn't properly secured, pilots rotated, cargo went to the tail, pilots couldn't lower the nose( due to the severe rear CG), and then the plane stalled.
I mispoke. You are right in that the nose falling could be a result of the stall, but I'm under the impression that when the center of gravity shifts drastically to the rear, the nose can remain up as the plane falls to the ground. I admit to assuming they were pushing the nose down during this time, which they should have been doing to get back to a T.O. pitch (lowering the nose), but not to a nose low position.

Another scenario that plays out along these lines (but I'm not implying this is what happened, just used for example) is windshear near the ground. In those cases a stall, is caused by a weather condition (say a microburst), which puts the aircraft into something that can be described as an artificial situation, or at least a non-normal condition, an extreme downdraft. The pilots max the throttles and hold a T.O. Pitch. This is an attempt to keep the vector of the aircraft away from the ground. Going nose low like this plane did could have been the result of the stall or someone not well versed in stall recoveries close to the ground. More speculation- if they pushed hard rudder to roll the plane and get the nose down, at that point they may have been along for the ride.

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Originally Posted by einmusiker View Post
possible that a sniper took out a pilot on takeoff causing it to nose up?
Unlikely- Two pilots, and aircraft trimmed for T.O. pitch, it would not naturally pitch up if controls were released.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:39 PM   #12
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Boing 747 Crashes in Afganistan

I work for UPS, and US Airways.. Philly is our Hub, we be running flights back to back like its water

I work the international flights.. The Boeing 767s, the Airbus A330s 200 series and 300 series

These planes are as big as someone's who block they live on.. Over 335,000 gallons of Jet A fuel.. Too see the plane drop out the sky scared the **** outta me!!! That's crazy. It makes not even want to fly

Those engines failed or stalled.. period!!! Even if the weight shifted.. Those engines would have kept on pulling. Now if the plane was overweight.. Now that's a major what if right there.. I would love to see the flight manifest
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:42 PM   #13
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I work for UPS, and US Airways.. Philly is our Hub, we be running flights back to back like its water

I work the international flights.. The Boeing 767s, the Airbus A330s 200 series and 300 series

These planes are as big as someone's who block they live on.. Over 335,000 gallons of Jet A fuel.. Too see the plane drop out the sky scared the **** outta me!!! That's crazy. It makes not even want to fly
...but you don't think twice about the semi who has your number on it's hood.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:43 PM   #14
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...but you don't think twice about the semi who has your number on it's hood.
I'm working a double man.. Lol, you've lost me
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
I mispoke. You are right in that the nose falling could be a result of the stall, but I'm under the impression that when the center of gravity shifts drastically to the rear, the nose can remain up as the plane falls to the ground. I admit to assuming they were pushing the nose down during this time, which they should have been doing to get back to a T.O. pitch (lowering the nose), but not to a nose low position.
The nose came down after the plane went to about 90 degrees bank which adding on to the stall, the plane was producing zero vertical lift.



----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
I work for UPS, and US Airways.. Philly is our Hub, we be running flights back to back like its water

I work the international flights.. The Boeing 767s, the Airbus A330s 200 series and 300 series

These planes are as big as someone's who block they live on.. Over 335,000 gallons of Jet A fuel.. Too see the plane drop out the sky scared the **** outta me!!! That's crazy. It makes not even want to fly

Those engines failed or stalled.. period!!! Even if the weight shifted.. Those engines would have kept on pulling. Now if the plane was overweight.. Now that's a major what if right there.. I would love to see the flight manifest
A 747 is not a F-22. The engines don't produce enough thrust to overcome its weight( thus a F-22 able to go up straight like a rocket). The 747 can stall if there is enough pitch exceeding the critical angle of attack of the wings.

Not ruling out an engine failure/ compressor stall either......
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 07:49 PM   #16
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I have never seen anything like this happen to an aircraft of that size before, sad sight to see indeed. This is definitely a stall but the cause is still to be determined, hopefully, it is nothing nefarious.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 08:01 PM   #17
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Boing 747 Crashes in Afganistan

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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
A 747 is not a F-22. The engines don't produce enough thrust to overcome its weight( thus a F-22 able to go up straight like a rocket). The 747 can stall if there is enough pitch exceeding the critical angle of attack of the wings.

Not ruling out an engine failure/ compressor stall either......
If thrust was an issue.. The plane wouldn't had made it off the ground.. Provided the cargo exceeded the maximum take off weight If cargo shift of that magnitude happen.. The plane would have fell tail first. A lost of airspeed is another factor to why it fell also
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 08:02 PM   #18
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If thrust was an issue.. The plane wouldn't had made it off the ground.. Provided the cargo exceeded the maximum take off weight
Thrust is always an issue...... If the wings exceed the critical angle of attack, the wings will stall. The engines do not produce enough thrust to make a 747 like a rocket and still keep it a loft. Thus, the crash.

Now why the plane stalled is a mystery. Could be a weight shift, could be engine trouble, or being overweight.

Quote:
If cargo shift of that magnitude happen.. The plane would have fell tail first
It went on its side( due to the rudder becoming less effective and the pilots may have been using ailerons to keep the plane level which only made the rolling action worse as the plane stalled) which caused the nose to drop through the sky. Why it went nose first.

Quote:
A lost of airspeed is another factor to why it fell also
That's a bit obvious.... But, airspeed does not cause a plane to stall. Exceeding the critical angle of attack does. There is only so far you can increase the angle of attack to compensate for a lower airspeed. Fly slow enough, you will exceed the critical angle of attack and then stall.

The reason why this 747 got slow enough to do that was due to the unusually high nose up attitude the plane had and the amount of drag that was on the plane( from the landing gear and flaps). The engines even at 100% N1 couldn't overcome it so the airspeed dropped( if the engines were functioning properly).
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 08:17 PM   #19
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Do loadmasters stay on the plane during flight? If not I can't imagine what the guy is feeling like right now if it was a load shift problem. Sucks.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 08:21 PM   #20
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Now why the plane stalled is a mystery. Could be a weight shift, could be engine trouble, or being overweight.
If it was overweight enough to cause a stall it never would have gotten off of the ground in the first place. Engine failure could result in a stall if the pilots pulled back instead of pushing down to increase airspeed, but there is no way it would have gone that far nose-up because of an engine failure. That leaves load shift and flight control failure (if the elevators suddenly jammed back) but I think right now load shift is the most likely reason.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 08:24 PM   #21
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If it was overweight enough to cause a stall it never would have gotten off of the ground in the first place. Engine failure could result in a stall if the pilots pulled back instead of pushing down to increase airspeed, but there is no way it would have gone that far nose-up because of an engine failure. That leaves load shift and flight control failure (if the elevators suddenly jammed back) but I think right now load shift is the most likely reason.
Not necessarily.... This Cessna was overweight and got off the ground( though not that high....) before coming crashing back down.



If it was engine trouble, then pilot error comes into play. For some reason commercial pilots don't know how to recognize or recover from a stall and always try to increase pitch instead of lowering the nose/reducing the angle of attack to recover from the stall( Colgan crash and Air France 447. Though to be somewhat fair to the Colgan captain, he thought a tail stall was occurring due to misinterpreting the stick shaker as buffeting in the flight controls).....
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 08:58 PM   #22
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He does say the F-word at one point.
Yeah I heard it the second time I watched the video. Still, he remained very calm. I would have also expected him to contact his base but maybe they have protocols in place.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 09:06 PM   #23
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This is very scary and sad to see, I would hate to be the person responsible for strapping down the cargo.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 09:30 PM   #24
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Do loadmasters stay on the plane during flight? If not I can't imagine what the guy is feeling like right now if it was a load shift problem. Sucks.
Unknown. If the cargo is strapped down properly, there is no need for a loadmaster... there could be one at each base. The airline I flew cargo (NWA) did not carry a loadmaster.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 09:37 PM   #25
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The first I heard of this on the radio made it sound like there was some bad weather in the area. Possible that they got some sudden wind gusts they flew into during takeoff?

Sad to see, can't imagine knowing that the plane you're in is going down
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