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Old May 1, 2013, 08:46 PM   #1
dukebound85
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Court Martial for sharing Christian faith

This is disturbing for me

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...-sharing-faith
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Old May 1, 2013, 08:52 PM   #2
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Yeah, I agree, it's disturbing people would be trying to convert to other religions whilst serving in the military.
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Old May 1, 2013, 09:41 PM   #3
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What I find disturbing is that they are banning proselytizing, yet they don't define it.

Quote:
The Defense Department said this week that proselytizing — trying to get someone to change faiths — is banned. Its statement does not define proselytizing or address the role of military chaplains.
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Old May 1, 2013, 10:07 PM   #4
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Yeah, I agree, it's disturbing people would be trying to convert to other religions whilst serving in the military.
Then you must not be in favor of the bill of rights if you truly believe that. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all.
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Old May 1, 2013, 10:14 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ucfgrad93 View Post
What I find disturbing is that they are banning proselytizing, yet they don't define it.
here's one way they define it. From your article ...

Quote:
But new rules published last year by the Air Force warn leaders to be careful in talking about faith.

For example,” the rules state,“they must avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion.

It's really pretty standard stuff. As a California state employee I've been trained numerous times on just this sort of thing. I applaud bosses not assuming their subordinates share and partake in their faith. It's quite liberating.
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Old May 2, 2013, 02:39 AM   #6
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They would have to change the uniformed code of military justice to even think about a court martial for this . I would suggest the author read up on court martials also.
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Old May 2, 2013, 05:03 AM   #7
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Old May 2, 2013, 05:12 AM   #8
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Sharing one's faith should be OK. But for any commanding officer to "order" somebody under them to follow any faith is simply wrong. Like the article said, it's different if that officer invites you. There has to be some right to freedom of speech but it's also obvious that any form of coercion should not be tolerated.

I had a friend who was a company captain in the US Army and he got very gung ho about Amway and shared the concept to fellow soldiers under him. He didn't coerce them but he was told not to talk about Amway and I agree with his superiors. However, had he invited them to a bible study, I don't see a problem with that. I think it should be case by case and while the problems caused from "inviting" fellow soldiers to a MLM business (which can lose money) is quite obvious and not good for the order of the troops, it's not any loss for a soldier to join a bible study brought on by the captain or anybody else. We have freedom of speech and religion, but something like Amway crosses the line. When a soldier gets into the downline of the captain, or even vice versa, a financial relationship is formed which can greatly influence the order of the whole group of soldiers. But it would be a stretch to say that company B got all screwed up because they are in a bible study together. Religion and the free expression of it is commonplace and accepted in the United States, but maybe not so much signing up people for a business opportunity which can lose money. Religion is a strong force here, but nowhere near the passion that can erupt when it comes to business deals. We only have so many cases in court due to religion, but business deals gone bad practically keeps the court system busy all the time. It's common sense.

Now let's say decades from now the MLM model totally catches on in a manner virtually everybody can make money, then I don't see it as a problem for soldiers to share such business opportunities among the troops, but no MLM is there yet and will currently cause more bad feelings than not in any group of people.

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Old May 2, 2013, 06:54 AM   #9
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Then you must not be in favor of the bill of rights if you truly believe that. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all.
How is having your commanding officer force you into a religion freedom of religion?
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Old May 2, 2013, 07:14 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
Then you must not be in favor of the bill of rights if you truly believe that. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all.
When you serve in the military, you do not follow the same jurisdiction like any ordinary civilian, on active duty you are to follow the military's example and since they are bound to the government, the separation of church and state extends to this branch.

That's how I see it.
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Old May 2, 2013, 07:16 AM   #11
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Then you must not be in favor of the bill of rights if you truly believe that. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all.
If I start hassling people at my work place i'll be fired, same deal here.

We have freedom of speech but there are limits to what we can say and where.
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Old May 2, 2013, 07:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
Why are you disturbed? The armed forces have always had Chaplins, but superior officers should not be pressing subordinates to adopt their preferred religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfgrad93 View Post
What I find disturbing is that they are banning proselytizing, yet they don't define it.
I believe its the standard definition: : to induce someone to convert to one's faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
Then you must not be in favor of the bill of rights if you truly believe that. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion and all.
The point of this issue sailed right over your head. There is no move to prevent individuals from worshiping as they see fit.

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Originally Posted by Peace View Post
They would have to change the uniformed code of military justice to even think about a court martial for this . I would suggest the author read up on court martials also.
In the military (at least when I was in the USN), you could handle problems by writing substandard fitness reports, NJP (Non-judicial punishment), handled at the C.O.s discretion, or a Court Martial. When it comes to punishing an Officer, they might want their day in court if their career is going to be adversely effected. In no way, shape, or form, should a superior be pressuring a junior into making a religious commitment. As far as equals, I could see if someone's proselytizing starts to become an issue in a unit, some action would need to be taken.
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Old May 2, 2013, 09:26 AM   #13
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Old May 2, 2013, 10:17 AM   #14
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This didn't happen in a vacuum. Certain areas in the U.S. military have become widely known for religious coercion. For example, in the previous couple of decades, you practically had to be a Baptist** to attend the Air Force Academy. There have been hundreds of articles about it in recent years. It started hitting the news in 2004 or so. Here is an old article about it:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...my_13_ST_N.htm

The problem has been described as coercion and bullying by fellow cadets, being tolerated or encouraged by the officer staff, along with officially-sponsored events. In the context of life in an academy, which is intended to be a near-total experience, that is unconstitutional. The orders are "back off". If people refuse to back off, they are disobeying orders, and are subject to discipline. Seems simple to me.

"What is it about the First Amendment that you don't understand?"


** (More correctly, Fundamentalist/Authoritarian (Christian), often Protestant now-- back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, such personalities were more often Catholic.)
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Old May 2, 2013, 10:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
This didn't happen in a vacuum. Certain areas in the U.S. military have become widely known for religious coercion. For example, in the previous couple of decades, you practically had to be a Baptist** to attend the Air Force Academy. There have been hundreds of articles about it in recent years. It started hitting the news in 2004 or so. Here is an old article about it:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...my_13_ST_N.htm

The problem has been described as coercion and bullying by fellow cadets, being tolerated or encouraged by the officer staff, along with officially-sponsored events. In the context of life in an academy, which is intended to be a near-total experience, that is unconstitutional. The orders are "back off". If people refuse to back off, they are disobeying orders, and are subject to discipline. Seems simple to me.

"What is it about the First Amendment that you don't understand?"


** (More correctly, Fundamentalist/Authoritarian (Christian), often Protestant now-- back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, such personalities were more often Catholic.)
As I remember to go to a U.S. Military Academy you needed the recommendation of a member of Congress. I could see a wide diversion of standards depending on who you approached to get the recommendation.
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Old May 2, 2013, 02:18 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ucfgrad93 View Post
What I find disturbing is that they are banning proselytizing, yet they don't define it.
What I find disturbing is they are trying to take the right to praise God away from those who protect us. People are treading on thin ice without realizing it.

God is patient and forgiving but as the past has shown He has His limits.
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Old May 2, 2013, 02:26 PM   #17
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Old May 2, 2013, 02:30 PM   #18
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What I find disturbing is they are trying to take the right to praise God away from those who protect us. People are treading on thin ice without realizing it.

God is patient and forgiving but as the past has shown He has His limits.
You really don't understand what they are banning, do you?

There's a difference between praising God and forcing your religion down someone's throat (especially someone you outrank) - you understand that right?

The former - absolutely protected.

The latter - absolutely NOT protected - and it shouldn't be.
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Old May 2, 2013, 03:29 PM   #19
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God is patient and forgiving but as the past has shown He has His limits.
Well, I'm sure if He works on it enough He can become even more patient and forgiving.

Considering some of His past decisions, He could do with a little personal growth and maturation.
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Old May 2, 2013, 05:51 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
This didn't happen in a vacuum. Certain areas in the U.S. military have become widely known for religious coercion. For example, in the previous couple of decades, you practically had to be a Baptist** to attend the Air Force Academy. There have been hundreds of articles about it in recent years. It started hitting the news in 2004 or so.

(snip)


** (More correctly, Fundamentalist/Authoritarian (Christian), often Protestant now-- back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, such personalities were more often Catholic.)
There is quite a difference between BAPTIST and FUNDAMENTALIST. I once held somewhat conservative Christian beliefs but never considered it similar to Baptists, which tend to be a conservative yet mainstream church. I am more mainstream Christian these days and may find more in common with a Baptist. Trust me there is quite a big difference between the two. Shamefully, a lot of non mainstream Christians who are conservative wear their non-denominational badge of honor and look down on "established" churches whom they think are lukewarm. And so say Baptist=Fundamentalist would be about the same to say that usually republican members of the evangelical fold like a Church of Christ or Assemblies of God must be the same as Mormons, because they are both usually republicans and probably voted for Mitt Romney in the last election.

That being said, it doesn't shock me that maybe a lot of Air Force Academy students are Baptists. It is the largest mainline and (usually if white) conservative Christian denomination out there, and ranks up there in terms of sheer numbers with the large group of similarly voting, yet different politically conservative Catholics. While I don't see a lot of fellow green party members going to the Air Force Academy (which I personally don't consider bad in any way), it's still going to likely attract moderates and conservatives much more than liberals.

Regardless of political leaning, any dedicated student can make this a more than worthy four year education that can prepare a student for further graduate study if they wish. Yes, it does take high grades and a congressional member's approval, but it's no more Harvard than it is some unilateral Baptist Fundamentalist brotherhood.

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Old May 2, 2013, 06:43 PM   #21
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Yes please don't let religion out in public places. You want to convert someone? Invite them over and talk to them, don't bother me while I quietly listen to my music in public transportations. Same should apply in the military

As an atheist that studies theology, I know more about your religion than you do

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...s.-Is-that-bad
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Old May 2, 2013, 07:28 PM   #22
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Tempest. Teapot. Non-story.

It's never been ok to use time paid for by the federal govt. to promote one's own religious values. Much less coerce underlings into believing what you believe.

Why the outrage?
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Old May 3, 2013, 01:50 AM   #23
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This seems like a good move.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:53 AM   #24
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What I find disturbing is they are trying to take the right to praise God away from those who protect us. People are treading on thin ice without realizing it.

God is patient and forgiving but as the past has shown He has His limits
.
Was that the last plague or locust infestation?

Stop misrepresenting the situation. The subject is proselytizing, not worship.
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Old May 3, 2013, 11:00 AM   #25
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Yeah, I agree, it's disturbing people would be trying to convert to other religions whilst serving in the military.
Why? We try and convert people to our way of thinking on this message board almost every day.
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