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Old May 3, 2013, 04:06 AM   #1
sim667
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Five year old kills 2 year old sister with 'Toy' rifle

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He received it as a gift meant to entertain and educate him with the rigours of responsible gun handling and gun safety. But what should have been a simple child's toy has claimed a life of another loved one.

The victim, identified as 2-year-old Caroline Starks was playing nearby her 5-year-old brother when the latter accidentally pulled the trigger of his toy, a Cricket .22-caliber rifle, a little rifle he received as a gift last year.
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So this should fuel the gun debate a bit more......

Its a .22 air rifle as far as I'm aware, we're allowed those in the UK, but its the type of thing teenage boys want and the parents wont let them have.

However I think marketing one as "My first rifle" specifically for kids is pretty abhorrent, and clearly it hasn't been used to teach safe gun usage in this case.

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Old May 3, 2013, 04:58 AM   #2
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The mother said the rifle was kept in the corner of a room, sitting against a wall. The boy apparently picked it up to play with it, but didn't realise it still contained a shell.
1) .22 caliber air rifles are not toys and can be lethal
2) failure of parenting in not securing the weapon
3) this is why pediatricians ask about firearms in household
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Old May 3, 2013, 05:24 AM   #3
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No gun is a toy and I doubt it was ever described as such. I also don't think these are air rifles, from the description it sounds like just a miniature 22 rifle. Can't really confirm that as the Crickett site is completely gone.

I will say that its fairly normal in some states to get kids started early, although a 22 at 5 yo seems a bit early to me. I had a bb gun when I was around 8 and a shotgun around 11 iirc.
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Old May 3, 2013, 06:39 AM   #4
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I just assumed it was a .22 air rifle. Even worse if its an actual rifle.
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Old May 3, 2013, 06:44 AM   #5
.Andy
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Crickett. My first Gun Death. Made in USA.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:00 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by sim667 View Post
I just assumed it was a .22 air rifle. Even worse if its an actual rifle.
Doesn't matte what it was. This is not a GUN issue it is a PARENTING issue.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:05 AM   #7
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Doesn't matte what it was. This is not a GUN issue it is a PARENTING issue.
While I might argue that it is both, I would agree that the parenting issue is primary here.

I will go out on a limb, brave soul that I am, and predict that this thread will end up being another gun thread.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:11 AM   #8
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
This is not a GUN issue it is a PARENTING issue.
Agreed, that rifle shouldn't have been readily accessible to a 5 year old.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:24 AM   #10
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Doesn't matte what it was. This is not a GUN issue it is a PARENTING issue.
Exactly! The children should have absolutley no access to them unless under undivided parental supervision. Period.
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:36 AM   #11
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I respect different cultures and personal freedoms and I'm not judging (especially as there are many Americans on this site) but I find the whole mentality of wanting to teach a 5 year old kid the responsible handling of a gun or rifle (btw. how did that work out?) extremely bizarre.

Is that Crickett ad some photoshopped satire?
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:50 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dec. View Post
I respect different cultures and personal freedoms and I'm not judging (especially as there are many Americans on this site) but I find the whole mentality of wanting to teach a 5 year old kid the responsible handling of a gun or rifle (btw. how did that work out?) extremely bizarre.

Is that Crickett ad some photoshopped satire?
It doesn't appear to be. In fact, it appears it may very well be their website.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...ntally-1863586
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Old May 3, 2013, 08:59 AM   #13
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**** me.

How a gun can be marketed for a kid is ridiculous. Sorry America, I do like your country but it has some ****ed up laws.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:03 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
**** me.

How a gun can be marketed for a kid is ridiculous. Sorry America, I do like your country but it has some ****ed up laws.
The idea is that the kid would be supervised while in possession of the gun...
This is where an adult supervisory penalty could be appropriate, not just chock it up to an accident.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:14 AM   #15
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This is terribly tragic, but in no way should be an indictment of the gun manufacturer. Teaching children from an early age about gun responsibility is a good idea, provided the parents are doing a good job of teaching their kid(s).

In this story it seems like the breakdown was with the parent. The gun was not even remotely close to properly stored and was left sitting at ground level....loaded. I'm sure nobody here will beat themselves up over this more than the parents, but there should be some sort of criminal negligence charges filed over this.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:20 AM   #16
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Seriously America? Guns for kids? I swear you guys don't do a thing help yourselves. I'd say the parents deserve this to happen to them for being so ****ing dumb. Maybe next time they'll think before handing over guns to kids. It isn't as if its any better when adults have guns.

Pathetic. Really pathetic.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:29 AM   #17
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Seriously America? Guns for kids? I swear you guys don't do a thing help yourselves. I'd say the parents deserve this to happen to them for being so ****ing dumb. Maybe next time they'll think before handing over guns to kids. It isn't as if its any better when adults have guns.

Pathetic. Really pathetic.
I wish more of this type of indignation popped up on our side of the pond. Twenty six killed at school and a lobby with its tag along paranoids launch to defend gun freedom (Second Amendment rights) which is oh so much more important than the associated collateral damage.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:34 AM   #18
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I wish more of this type of indignation popped up on our side of the pond. Twenty six killed at school and a lobby with its tag along paranoids launch to defend gun freedom (Second Amendment rights) which is oh so much more important than the associated collateral damage.
You're right....two nuts start shooting and we should just scrap part of the Constitution as a result.

And this from someone who has no use for guns.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:42 AM   #19
sim667
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Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Doesn't matte what it was. This is not a GUN issue it is a PARENTING issue.
Well its both a gun and a parenting issue.

When guns are so commonplace that gun manufacturers think its socially acceptable to target advertising toward children for weapons that fire live rounds, then its just as much a "gun" problem as it is a problem of a parent thinking its a good idea to buy a 5 year old a gun.

The only countries in the world where it seems to be accepted that children may have access to guns is America and a number of African countries. Only one out of them doesn't have warlords, undertake ethnic cleansing or make routine use of child soldiers.

But of course American society is so sociopathic about making use of their "Civil Liberties" from an outdated piece of paper set in a time when you actually needed a gun to protect your life, they tend to forget the levels of morality in other places where the rest of the world thinks is comparable.

Children in Africa carry guns and become child soldiers become ruthless men force them to with Violence. Children in America carry guns because ruthless corporations making millions of pounds from sales sell parents the idea of buying their children a gun in order to line their pockets and ensure the continuation of society's attitude that weaponry only fit for warfare should be in the hands of the public.

----------

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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
This is terribly tragic, but in no way should be an indictment of the gun manufacturer.
So is a meth dealer openly advertised meth to your kids, and they died from smoking it youd be like "Yeah its not the meth dealers fault, its mine"

Brilliant.

----------

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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
This is terribly tragic, but in no way should be an indictment of the gun manufacturer.
So is a meth dealer openly advertised meth to your kids, and they died from smoking it youd be like "Yeah its not the meth dealers fault, its mine"

Brilliant.
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:44 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
This is terribly tragic, but in no way should be an indictment of the gun manufacturer.
Really?

There is no way possible that a child younger than ten or twelve ever ought to be handling any gun that doesn't have a cork and a string coming out of it.

I wouldn't let a child younger than that handle a sharp kitchen knife. And for this manufacturer to market their product to children barely older than toddlers is frankly disgraceful. We managed to outlaw lawn darts because they were fundamentally dangerous toys - why we let companies sell explicitly lethal weapons as "toys" is completely beyond me.

Take a look at their marketing video, paying special attention to the ~ 20 second mark, where Mom manages to point the barrel at her son's head. Teaching gun safety, foresooth.....
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Old May 3, 2013, 09:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by sim667 View Post
So is a meth dealer openly advertised meth to your kids, and they died from smoking it youd be like "Yeah its not the meth dealers fault, its mine"

Brilliant.
You have an example for something that isn't illegal?

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Originally Posted by vrDrew View Post
Really?

There is no way possible that a child younger than ten or twelve ever ought to be handling any gun that doesn't have a cork and a string coming out of it.

I wouldn't let a child younger than that handle a sharp kitchen knife. And for this manufacturer to market their product to children barely older than toddlers is frankly disgraceful. We managed to outlaw lawn darts because they were fundamentally dangerous toys - why we let companies sell explicitly lethal weapons as "toys" is completely beyond me.

Take a look at their marketing video, paying special attention to the ~ 20 second mark, where Mom manages to point the barrel at her son's head. Teaching gun safety, foresooth.....
Again....if you want to see marketing guns for kids outlawed, then you are free to start your own legislative push. But for now it is legal and the process still requires an adult to make the purchase. So at the end of the day this is entirely on the parent to monitor and educate their children.....which obviously did not happen here.

If a kid gets type-2 diabetes from eating a steady diet of Snickers and McDonalds it isn't the fault of the people making the food. Its on the person that fed the crap to the child. Same holds true here.
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Old May 3, 2013, 10:05 AM   #22
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There are just too many accidental deaths because irresponsible people have been allowed to purchase guns.

I just think there has to be some way to make it harder for everyone to purchase guns. I shouldn't be allowed to go into a store and purchase a deadly weapon to hand over to my kid - with no knowledge of how to even shoot a gun myself.

I've always believed that banning things like AR-15's proabably isn't going to stop the mass killings that seem to be a normal thing in the US. But by making the process harder, we should be able to stop some of these accidental shootings.

Everytime someone has compared cars to guns, I've always come back with the idea of licensing, registering, and renewing some type of gun license. It's better for everyone if someone who is walking out with a gun has shown that they are able to understand how to safely handle it and store it.
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Old May 3, 2013, 10:10 AM   #23
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If a kid gets type-2 diabetes from eating a steady diet of Snickers and McDonalds it isn't the fault of the people making the food.
If I momentarily turn my back, and my child scarfs down a couple of Snickers bars, they aren't going to develop Diabetes before the wrappers hit the floor. But if that same kid pulls the trigger on his Crickett rifle while I'm getting the mail or cutting the lawn, the effects can be instantly and irreversibly tragic.

I don't want to see rifles or handguns banned, any more than I want to see sharp kitchen knives banned. But, just for once, I'd like to see the "pro-gun" people here try and take a responsible stand and condemn the shameless and irresponsible profiteering that led - directly - to this sort of tragedy.
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Old May 3, 2013, 10:15 AM   #24
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Am I the only one who's wondering how the gun could even be loaded while in the hands of the boy?
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Old May 3, 2013, 10:20 AM   #25
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1) .22 caliber air rifles are not toys and can be lethal
2) failure of parenting in not securing the weapon
3) this is why pediatricians ask about firearms in household
I'm under the impression some states have banned pediatricians from asking about firearms. You know, stamp on the first amendment to protect the ever precious second amendment. And I'm nearly certain the NRA is pushing for the other 47 states to get on board. Can't have enough guns in this country, including in the hands of "youth".

"Despite this evidence, in 2011, Florida passed legislation, the Firearms Owners’ Privacy Act, making it illegal for a doctor to conduct preventive screening by asking families about guns in the home — essentially “gagging” health care providers. Under the aegis of the Second Amendment, the First Amendment rights and the Hippocratic responsibilities of physicians were challenged. In response, the AAP’s Florida chapter brought suit, and in June 2012, Miami-based U.S. District Judge Marcia Cooke issued a permanent injunction banning the state from enforcing the law. Governor Rick Scott has appealed the ruling, and similar bills have been introduced in three additional states."
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