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Old May 3, 2013, 11:37 AM   #1
Macky-Mac
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"Local elections: .....UKIP's 'remarkable' results"

The Conservatives aren't right wing enough for the British? UKIP? Anti European Union I gather, but what else do they stand for?

BBC;

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UKIP leader Nigel Farage has hailed gains in council elections across England as "remarkable" for the party.

UKIP has won over 140 seats so far and is averaging 25% of the vote in the wards where it is standing.

The Conservatives have lost control of 10 councils, but retained 17, while Labour has gained two councils and boosted its councillors by over 200.

David Cameron said he would "work really hard to win back" supporters who had decided to vote for UKIP.
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Old May 3, 2013, 11:45 AM   #2
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I fear that the Conservatives may feel that they have to tack further to the Right in order to counter the threat coming from the UKIP. This is bad for the UK, bad for the EU (despite everything, the posturing, threats, tantrums, the UK has actually been a rather useful & very necessary counterbalance to French-German hegemony in the EU), and not great for the actual union of the UK itself. While I have little time for the Tories - and they have never fully accommodated themselves to being a mid ranking European power rather than a major world power - I'd love to see them face down these individuals.

Unfortunately, ever since Mrs Thatcher became party leader, they (Conservatives) have moved ever further rightwards, polarising the country in the process. The intelligent, sane, moderate, tolerant Tory as exemplified by someone like Harold Macmillan (whom I've always liked, despite being a Tory) is long gone.

It is also worth noting that ever since Mrs Thatcher became PM the country of England (let alone Wales, and, above all, Scotland) are becoming more regionally defined in their political representation - in other words, the regional divisions are getting stronger and are more pronounced as election succeeds election. Long term, the strain on the structure of the union of the United Kingdom itself will increase still further.

Apart from Labour recovering some ground, the other thing to note is the virtual annihilation of the Lib Dems; partly, this is the usual punishment dished out by voters to the smaller party in a coalition Government, but, it is especially worrying for the Lib Dems as, normally, they tend to do very well in the local and municipal elections.

Last edited by Scepticalscribe; May 4, 2013 at 08:37 AM.
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Old May 3, 2013, 12:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Scepticalscribe View Post
I fear that the Conservatives may feel that they have to tack further to the Right in order to counter the threat coming from the UKIP. .
That may sound obvious, but in fact it's a double edged sword. Sarkozy in France veered to far right populism, now his party is in complete disarray.

Costly mistake.
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Old May 3, 2013, 01:09 PM   #4
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On the bright side overall it's a lurch to the left, UKIP is mostly cannibalising tory votes and libdem losses are overshadowed by labour gains.

I don't support any of them, but it's nice to a trend towards cameron not getting a second term.
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Old May 3, 2013, 01:16 PM   #5
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Cameron or Miliband it's the same politics.
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Old May 3, 2013, 01:31 PM   #6
Mord
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Cameron or Miliband it's the same politics.
On one level I agree, on another I have to say the tories are much much worse.

Also, why are you using Skunk's avatar? It really threw me.
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Old May 3, 2013, 01:35 PM   #7
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Me too.
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Old May 3, 2013, 01:42 PM   #8
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On one level I agree, on another I have to say the tories are much much worse.
Well the con's didn't wage an illegal war in iraq. I thought that was pretty awful, the workers party interested in siphoning off other people's oil.

That's not to say the Tories wouldn't have done the same.

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Also, why are you using Skunk's avatar? It really threw me.
I don't really know how it came to be.
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Old May 4, 2013, 03:52 AM   #9
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Well the con's didn't wage an illegal war in iraq. I thought that was pretty awful, the workers party interested in siphoning off other people's oil.

That's not to say the Tories wouldn't have done the same.



I don't really know how it came to be.
The Tories voted for it.
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Old May 4, 2013, 05:31 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Scepticalscribe View Post
While I have little time for the Tories - and they have never fully accommodated themselves to being a mid ranking European power rather than a major world power - I'd love to see them face down these individuals.
.
You make a very interesting point both France and Britain had trouble adjusting to their new role after WWII.
After the Suez adventure of 1956, France and Britain took very different lessons. France as a founder member of the EU began to focus more on Europe, than world affairs, and held a deep distrust of all US foreign policy.
Britain became with time the main ally of the US in Europe.
By now France had left NATO, and was solely focused on EU affairs
Britain's action in the Falklands and then the Thatcher Reagan years gave hope that Britain would again play a major role in the world. This all was going to plan the first Gulf war 1991 was the showcase.

The invasion of Iraq was I believe directly a result of Tony Blair believing that it was Britain's place to standby the US whether right or wrong.

This action was seen by the world via the UN as a unilateral act of aggression by the US/UK.

This also had the by working of turning Jacques Chirac into a world leader and hero.


Everybody in Europe knows that European Union has to change it's self. I think that all countries are in agreement about this.

I do think that the UK has to understand that Europe is going to reform it's self with or without the UK. But you only can influence events if you are a member of the club.

The Euro is here to stay or at least until the Germans decide otherwise. Both Britain and France had better get the message there is only one country that matters in Europe at this moment in time. GERMANY
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Old May 4, 2013, 06:13 AM   #11
Mord
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Well the con's didn't wage an illegal war in iraq. I thought that was pretty awful, the workers party interested in siphoning off other people's oil.

That's not to say the Tories wouldn't have done the same.
I just feel the way I do as the tories have had a tangible and significant negative impact on those I care about. I actually personally benefit in the short term from tory fiscal policy but the broader impact on society is difficult to ignore.

Fiscal conservatism is just a crock of **** and while labour may not be much better at the top there's still a sizeable contingent of economic left leaning MPs within the party.

I think best case next GA would be a coalition liberal government, I don't want labour to get a majority I don't think they deserve it but the coalition should lay on the left, hopefully redeeming the more honourable side of the lib-dems, ejecting clegg in the process and getting things back on track.

*pipedream*
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Old May 4, 2013, 06:14 AM   #12
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I find the media reaction to UKIP gains most surprising of all.
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Old May 4, 2013, 07:07 AM   #13
rovex
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The Tories voted for it.
Labour had a large majority.
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Old May 4, 2013, 08:30 AM   #14
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Labour had a large majority.
While the vote passed 412 to 149 if the Conservatives had voted against it then it would have been 266 to 295 against and it would have failed to pass.

I think both Labour and the Conservatives are guilty on Iraq - though obviously Blair and other senior Labour government members are more guilty.
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Old May 4, 2013, 08:43 AM   #15
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While the vote passed 412 to 149 if the Conservatives had voted against it then it would have been 266 to 295 against and it would have failed to pass.

I think both Labour and the Conservatives are guilty on Iraq - though obviously Blair and other senior Labour government members are more guilty.
That's because quite a few labour mp's voted against but anyway if the whips managed to get all of them on blair's side it would of passed, couretsy of a labour majority.
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:01 AM   #16
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It’s fragmented the conservative vote. And since the UKIP have stated they wouldn't enter into coalition with the Conservative Party, it’ll be much easier for the Conservatives to lose in 2015.

I could’t be happier.
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:48 AM   #17
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Like others have said the plus side is UKIP is cannibalising Conservative votes, so less chance the Conservatives win in 2015.

The down side is a sizeable number of people actually voted for these racist, xenophobic idiots! What the hell?! Just when I thought people couldn't get any more stupid they vote UKIP!
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:50 AM   #18
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Like others have said the plus side is UKIP is cannibalising Conservative votes, so less chance the Conservatives win in 2015.

The down side is a sizeable number of people actually voted for these racist, xenophobic idiots! What the hell?! Just when I thought people couldn't get any more stupid they vote UKIP!
Ah, welcome to the happy world of the "wisdom of the electorate", a fantasy we here in the US promulgate.
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Old May 4, 2013, 10:22 AM   #19
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Like others have said the plus side is UKIP is cannibalising Conservative votes, so less chance the Conservatives win in 2015.

The down side is a sizeable number of people actually voted for these racist, xenophobic idiots! What the hell?! Just when I thought people couldn't get any more stupid they vote UKIP!
Much as I may confess to enjoying the sight of a fratricidal conflict in the wilder fringes (and increasingly, the centre) of the right, I fear that one of the outcomes of these elections may be to make the expression of utterly repellant ideas somehow more politically (and socially and culturally) respectable by admitting them into the political mainstream.
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