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Old May 23, 2013, 08:45 PM   #1
lannister80
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Boy Scouts vote to allow gay youth

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...gay-youth?lite

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The Boy Scouts of America voted Thursday to end its controversial policy banning gay kids and teens from joining one of the nation's most popular youth organizations, ditching membership guidelines that had roiled the group in recent years.
Over 60 percent of Scouting's National Council of 1,400 delegates from across the country voted to lift the ban, BSA officials said. The ban on gay leaders was not voted on and will remain in place.
I say (a) finally, and (b) get to lifting the ban on leaders ASAP.

What kind of message does it send to gay youth that they're allowed to be Scouts as youth, but that when they grow up they won't be allowed to be involved with Scouts, presumably because they're not "morally straight"?
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:09 PM   #2
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LOL... A descision guaranteed to please absolutely no one.

I expect within the next year or so the ban will be fully lifted. The Scouts would be smart to see what's coming and get ahead of the curve, but they chose this instead.

Edit: The ban on gay leaders was not voted on. Because if it had been, it seems likely that would have fallen too. Dumbasses. That vote is coming, you're just delaying the inevitable.
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:56 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...gay-youth?lite



I say (a) finally, and (b) get to lifting the ban on leaders ASAP.

What kind of message does it send to gay youth that they're allowed to be Scouts as youth, but that when they grow up they won't be allowed to be involved with Scouts, presumably because they're not "morally straight"?
Cool! Next year we can end that prejudicial ban forbidding boys from joining the Girl Scouts. Men as Girl Scout leaders? Why not?
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:05 PM   #4
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Cool! Next year we can end that prejudicial ban forbidding boys from joining the Girl Scouts. Men as Girl Scout leaders? Why not?
What a ridiculous statement. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Do you believe that a gay male is less of a man than a straight one?

The Boy Scouts are setting a horrible example. They seem to believe that being a gay adult means you are a child molester. Ironic coming from an organization who have shown they have no issues covering up abuse from heterosexual sex offenders.

I wouldn't let my son within a country mile of this antiquated, thoughtless organization.
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:14 PM   #5
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The Boy Scouts are setting a horrible example.
The horrible example will be set if they decide to allow gay members. At the risk of starting a war I'm in no mood to deal with, being gay isn't natural. It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve. Even if you don't believe Adam and Eve ever existed, a MAN was meant to be with a WOMAN. A woman needs a man to reproduce and a man needs a woman to reproduce. Even if a gay couple has no intention of wanting children, it still is not natural or normal.
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ideal.dreams View Post
The horrible example will be set if they decide to allow gay members. At the risk of starting a war I'm in no mood to deal with, being gay isn't natural. It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve. Even if you don't believe Adam and Eve ever existed, a MAN was meant to be with a WOMAN. A woman needs a man to reproduce and a man needs a woman to reproduce. Even if a gay couple has no intention of wanting children, it still is not natural or normal.
Then why'd God make gay people?
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:21 PM   #7
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What a ridiculous statement. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Do you believe that a gay male is less of a man than a straight one?
Given that pedophiles are almost invariably males (i.e., almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men), and up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys, that would indicate that having homosexuals as scout leaders alone puts scouts at risk.

Source

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The Boy Scouts are setting a horrible example. They seem to believe that being a gay adult means you are a child molester.
Not at all. But it's the same thing as putting men in charge of Girl Scouts. Just because you're a heterosexual male doesn't mean you're a child molester. But only a fool would take the risk.

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I wouldn't let my son within a country mile of this antiquated, thoughtless organization.
Lucky them, I suppose.
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ideal.dreams View Post
The horrible example will be set if they decide to allow gay members. At the risk of starting a war I'm in no mood to deal with, being gay isn't natural. It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve. Even if you don't believe Adam and Eve ever existed, a MAN was meant to be with a WOMAN. A woman needs a man to reproduce and a man needs a woman to reproduce. Even if a gay couple has no intention of wanting children, it still is not natural or normal.
Attraction to women is just as natural for me as attraction to women (assuming you're a straight male) is natural to you. To me, attraction to a male is not natural.... Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not "natural".

And frankly, this may be too little too late for the Boy Scouts. Membership has been declining for a decade. Luckily the youth of today are more open minded and intelligent than those adults who think it's OK to discriminate against children.

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Old May 23, 2013, 11:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Given that pedophiles are almost invariably males (i.e., almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men), and up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys, that would indicate that having homosexuals as scout leaders alone puts scouts at risk.
Please tell me you did not just say what I think you said. Are you suggesting homosexual=pedophile?
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Given that pedophiles are almost invariably males (i.e., almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men), and up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys, that would indicate that having homosexuals as scout leaders alone puts scouts at risk.
By this logic, they should only let women be scout leaders, right? And the abusive leaders they chose to cover up were heterosexual men. So, their little ban doesn't seem to be working.

Study after study has shown that pedophiles who abuse those of the same sex are not homosexual. Ignorance seems to be easier than education...

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Lucky them, I suppose.
Lucky him. It's their loss.
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:34 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by mactastic View Post
Please tell me you did not just say what I think you said. Are you suggesting homosexual=pedophile?
No. But some are, just as some heterosexual males are also pedophile predators of girls. Which is why we don't let men become girl scout leaders. Not because heterosexual = pedophile, but because enough of them are that it's too risky to take the chance. Same goes for homosexuals.

Clear?

----------

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
By this logic, they should only let women be scout leaders, right?
No. Haven't you seen the rash of women teachers in the news lately who've been boinking their male students?

There's no perfect solution, but having heterosexual men in charge of boy scouts is preferable. We're just protecting the children.

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And the abusive leaders they chose to cover up were heterosexual men. So, their little ban doesn't seem to be working.
No solution is perfect, but we can't allow perfection to be the enemy of good sense. You don't put heterosexual men in charge of girl scouts, and you don't put homosexual men in charge of boy scouts.

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Study after study has shown that pedophiles who abuse those of the same sex are not homosexual.
1. You didn't cite even one of those many studies.
2. Since I assume you mean "abuse" to be sexual abuse, let me help you with definitions: Homosexual: a person who is sexually attracted to people of his or her own sex.

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Ignorance seems to be easier than education...
But then I make learning easier than ignorance. It's my gift you see.

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Lucky him. It's their loss.
Doubtful.

<edit> Well here's a surprise (to me at least): Girl Scouts of Los Angeles allow men to be Girl Scout leaders as long as two leaders accompany the girls on outings, one of whom must be female. So they use chaperones.

Under those circumstances, I have no problem with homosexuals being Boy Scout leaders, as long as there's at least two leaders present, one of whom must be heterosexual.

Problem solved!

http://www.girlscoutsla.org/pages/about/join_faqs.html

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Old May 23, 2013, 11:39 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
No. But some are, just as some heterosexual males are also pedophile predators of girls. Which is why we don't let men become girl scout leaders. Not heterosexual = pedophile, but because enough of them are that it's too risky to take the chance. Same goes for homosexuals.

Clear?
Huh? Not clear at all. Clear as mud, actually. I had no idea we didn't let men lead Girl Scout tropps because they were so prone to pedophilia. Do you have some proof of this? (Preferably the kind that doesn't come from the Family Research Council)
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:42 PM   #13
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Huh? Not clear at all. Clear as mud, actually. I had no idea we didn't let men lead Girl Scout tropps because they were so prone to pedophilia. Do you have some proof of this? (Preferably the kind that doesn't come from the Family Research Council)
You didn't know that some men are sexual predators of young girls? Where have you been?

They source their facts, so if you have a problem with their sources, I'm happy to see your proof.
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:46 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ideal.dreams View Post
It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve.
Please do not project your personal fantasy beliefs onto other people. Thanks. Now go pray or whatever it is what people like you do.

Disgusting.

Edit. To clarify: I find it pretty hilarious that you talk about "nature" as in "being gay is not natural" but then pull some christian ****** out of your a** as if it's the most normal base of "reasoning". Well, no, obviously it's NOT normal to follow your religion. Billions of people on this planet chose other or no gods.

Second Edit: I apologize for the ****, but as it's only ****, I suppose we're ok with some ****. Praise the potato.
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Old May 23, 2013, 11:57 PM   #15
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Please do not project your personal fantasy beliefs onto other people. Thanks. Now go pray or whatever it is what people like you do.

Disgusting.
Please do not suggest that given the evidence of natural selection and evolution that being gay is normal. Thanks. Now go research why it is that a male's sperm is able to fertilize a female's egg, not just amongst HUMANS, but amongst ALL OTHER CREATURES ABLE TO REPRODUCE. It should be CRYSTAL clear that, in the aspect of religion, science, or whatever the hell else there is, that a MAN is meant to be with a WOMAN.

Edit: I said in my first post that I was in no mood to participate in this war and here I am doing just that. No matter what anyone on either side says, an argument will surface and I really am in no mood to deal with the **** that will come from it. As of this post, I am done with this thread.
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ideal.dreams View Post
The horrible example will be set if they decide to allow gay members. At the risk of starting a war I'm in no mood to deal with, being gay isn't natural. It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve. Even if you don't believe Adam and Eve ever existed, a MAN was meant to be with a WOMAN. A woman needs a man to reproduce and a man needs a woman to reproduce. Even if a gay couple has no intention of wanting children, it still is not natural or normal.
You do realise that there is more to life than copulation and reproduction?

According to Yale's Scientific Magazine:
Quote:
Do Animals Exhibit Homosexuality?
ARASH FEREYDOONI MARCH 14, 2012

Recent research has found that homosexual behavior in animals may be much more common than previously thought. Although Darwin’s theory of natural selection predicts an evolutionary disadvantage for animals that fail to pass along their traits through reproduction with the opposite sex, the validity of this part of his theory has been questioned with the discoveries of homosexual behavior in more than 10% of prevailing species throughout the world.


Human beings are not the only animals to exhibit homosexual behavior. Photo courtesy of the globalanimal.org.
Currently, homosexual behavior has been documented in over 450 different animal species worldwide. For instance, observations indicate that Humboldt, King, Gentoo, and Adélie penguins of the same sex engage in “mating rituals like entwining their necks and vocalizing to one another.” In addition, male giraffes have also been observed engaging in homosexual behavior by rubbing their necks against each others’ bodies while ignoring the females. Yet another example is lizards of the genus Teiidae, which can copulate with both male and female mates.

Biologists Nathan W. Bailey and Marlene Zuk from the University of California, Riverside have investigated the evolutionary consequences and implications of same-sex behavior, and their findings demonstrate benefits to what seems to be an evolutionary paradox. For example, their studies of the Laysan albatross show that female-female pairing can increase fitness by taking advantage of the excess of females and shortage of males in the population and provide superior care for offspring. Moreover, same-sex pairing in many species actually alleviates the likelihood of divorce and curtails the pressure on the opposite sex by allowing members to exhibit more flexibility to form partnerships, which in turn strengthens social bonds and reduces competition. Thus, not only do animals exhibit homosexuality, but the existence of this behavior is quite prevalent and may also confer certain evolutionary advantages.
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:14 AM   #17
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Please do not suggest that given the evidence of natural selection and evolution that being gay is normal.
I'm not suggesting it. I just know that there are a lot of gay people out there, so I consider it normal.
I don't really know that many "religious" people.

Just being curious: Does someone like you even believe in "natural selection"?

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Thanks.
You're welcome.

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Now go research why it is that a male's sperm is able to fertilize a female's egg, not just amongst HUMANS, but amongst ALL OTHER CREATURES ABLE TO REPRODUCE. It should be CRYSTAL clear that, in the aspect of religion, science, or whatever the hell else there is, that a MAN is meant to be with a WOMAN.
WELL THAT IS CRAZY. HUMANS **** TO REPRODUCE. Wow. what about those who chose doing it just for fun? are they evil?

The "aspect of religion" can be deleted. It's irrelevant to me. Might be important to you, but I don't give a **** about your "god", "allah", "Tom Cruise". Thanks.

The "aspect of science"... well, I'm here. And so are millions of others. Seems pretty "natural" to me.
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:22 AM   #18
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This is one of the most insulting threads to ever hit MR with posts discriminating against gay people.

Why am I still surprised that there are people like Duck and ideal who still hold such antiquated beliefs and defend them with the craziest logic? I don't even know how to respond!
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:27 AM   #19
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They source their facts, so if you have a problem with their sources, I'm happy to see your proof.
You surprise me, it's quite well known since the late 70's that homosexuality has zero to do with pedophilia.

Here are a few quotes from the Psychology Department at UCDavis to help potentially expand your view a little in this regard...

Quote:
Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).
Quote:
Reflecting the results of these and other studies, the mainstream view among researchers and professionals who work in the area of child sexual abuse is that homosexual and bisexual men do not pose any special threat to children. For example, in one review of the scientific literature, noted authority Dr. A. Nicholas Groth wrote:

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

In a more recent literature review, Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy (1998) similarly cautioned against confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. He noted, "The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women" (p. 259).
Quote:
In scandals involving the Catholic church, the victims of sexual abuse were often adolescent boys rather than small children. Similarly, the 2006 congressional page scandal involved males who were at least 16 years old.
These are cases in which the term pedophilia – referring as it does to attractions to prepubescent children – can cause confusion. Rather than pedophilia, the accusations stemming from these scandals raised the question of whether gay people shouldn't be trusted in positions of authority where there is any opportunity for sexually harassing or abusing others.

Here again, there is no inherent connection between an adult's sexual orientation and her or his propensity for endangering others. Scientific research provides no evidence that homosexual people are less likely than heterosexuals to exercise good judgment and appropriate discretion in their employment settings. There are no data, for example, showing that gay men and lesbians are more likely than heterosexual men and women to sexually harass their subordinates in the workplace. Data from studies using a variety of psychological measures do not indicate that gay people are more likely than heterosexuals to possess any psychological characteristics that would make them less capable of controlling their sexual urges, refraining from the abuse of power, obeying rules and laws, interacting effectively with others, or exercising good judgment in handling authority. As explained elsewhere on this site, sexual orientation is not a mental illness nor is it inherently associated with impaired psychological functioning.
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:28 AM   #20
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Given that pedophiles are almost invariably males (i.e., almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men), and up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys, that would indicate that having homosexuals as scout leaders alone puts scouts at risk.
I feel sorry for you that all you think about is sex sex sex when it comes to homosexuals. Speaks volumes.

As if all gay men are so horny and unprofessional that we can't keep our hands to ourselves.

Honest question: are you projecting?
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:32 AM   #21
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The horrible example will be set if they decide to allow gay members. At the risk of starting a war I'm in no mood to deal with, being gay isn't natural. It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve. Even if you don't believe Adam and Eve ever existed, a MAN was meant to be with a WOMAN. A woman needs a man to reproduce and a man needs a woman to reproduce. Even if a gay couple has no intention of wanting children, it still is not natural or normal.
Is being gay "natural". First one has to define "natural". I'd say something is "natural" if it exists in nature. Surely this does.

Next define "normal". That is harder. Are identical twins "normal". They are not as common as single births. People are bird guy far more common than as twins so that must be "more normal".

But you know what? Most people rally just don't care. It seems pointless to argue. Some guy is gay, who cares.
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:33 AM   #22
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Cool! Next year we can end that prejudicial ban forbidding boys from joining the Girl Scouts. Men as Girl Scout leaders? Why not?
Your post shows some serious naivety. They already have men as Girl Scouts leaders. And if you think it is a problem that men actually take interests in how their daughters build their sense of worth and self esteem, then that's a major problem with one's own lack of self esteem and inner demons that they need to deal with.

I would without any hesitation become a Girl Scout leader if my daughter was involved in it. I would do anything to help my daughter benefit from being a better girl, the best she could be, and have that turn into her being the best woman she could ever be.

BL.
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:48 AM   #23
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Your post shows some serious naivety.
It definitely demonstrates his clumsiness in debate.

A quick search might have saved DoD some embarrassment. But I guess that would be putting too much work into one's post ... better to shoot from the hip and miss wildly than take the time to get the facts right.

What was once Campfire Girls is Campfire, having turned coed in 1975.

And while Girl Scouts doesn't allow minor boys to join, they accept males over the age of 18 ...

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Never been a Girl Scout? It's not too late. Girl Scouts come in all age groups—all you have to want is to make a difference in the lives of girls. Adults 18 years of age or older can join Girl Scouts to serve as a mentor or speak at a Girl Scout event, volunteer in a troop or group, offer services at the council level, or simply say "I believe in the Girl Scout mission and want to show my support by becoming a member."

Membership is what you make it. Pitch in your expertise or build a skill you've always wanted to develop. Speak any foreign languages? Dabble in Web design? Your Girl Scout council needs your talent! You can spend an hour, a day, or more, depending on your schedule. We're looking for members who believe in girls and volunteers who represent the diversity of the world we live in—women, men, young adults, senior citizens, people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds, and of course our treasured Alumnae.

http://www.girlscouts.org/join/adults.asp
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Old May 24, 2013, 03:38 AM   #24
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The horrible example will be set if they decide to allow gay members. At the risk of starting a war I'm in no mood to deal with, being gay isn't natural. It's man and woman, as it has been since the beginning of life. Adam and Eve. Even if you don't believe Adam and Eve ever existed, a MAN was meant to be with a WOMAN. A woman needs a man to reproduce and a man needs a woman to reproduce. Even if a gay couple has no intention of wanting children, it still is not natural or normal.
I'm sorry you live in such a square, little box. Either you've been indoctrinated or don't have the necessary education to see the whole picture (most highly religious people don't), but there is more to earth, life and humanity, and sex and reproduction are only a small part of it.

The concept of Adam and Eve is nothing more than the projection of how men in those days regarded women and how their relationship was to be understood. If that's what *you* believe as well, then you're just one other indoctrinated bigot who won't accept that he's not the center of the universe.

Let gay men and women be, don't judge them because you don't understand how they feel. Don't know us down on every corner because all we're trying to do is live our life and fit in, like the rest of humanity.
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Old May 24, 2013, 03:59 AM   #25
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No. But some are, just as some heterosexual males are also pedophile predators of girls. Which is why we don't let men become girl scout leaders. Not because heterosexual = pedophile, but because enough of them are that it's too risky to take the chance. Same goes for homosexuals.

Clear?

----------



No. Haven't you seen the rash of women teachers in the news lately who've been boinking their male students?

There's no perfect solution, but having heterosexual men in charge of boy scouts is preferable. We're just protecting the children.



No solution is perfect, but we can't allow perfection to be the enemy of good sense. You don't put heterosexual men in charge of girl scouts, and you don't put homosexual men in charge of boy scouts.



1. You didn't cite even one of those many studies.
2. Since I assume you mean "abuse" to be sexual abuse, let me help you with definitions: Homosexual: a person who is sexually attracted to people of his or her own sex.



But then I make learning easier than ignorance. It's my gift you see.



Doubtful.

<edit> Well here's a surprise (to me at least): Girl Scouts of Los Angeles allow men to be Girl Scout leaders as long as two leaders accompany the girls on outings, one of whom must be female. So they use chaperones.

Under those circumstances, I have no problem with homosexuals being Boy Scout leaders, as long as there's at least two leaders present, one of whom must be heterosexual.

Problem solved!

http://www.girlscoutsla.org/pages/about/join_faqs.html

It is that kind of thinking that has driven males out of the teaching profession, leaving no role models for male students.

I notice that you are now all about taking preventative action even against persons not guilty of any crime. If you can do it once why not do the same with FIREARMS?
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