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Old Jun 1, 2013, 10:10 PM   #1
BiggAW
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Laws to protect again latent defects?

So I have an early 2011 Macbook Pro that has the ATI graphics card issue. It is a latent defect, and a class issue, which Apple so far has refused to acknowledge.

https://discussions.apple.com/messag...23456#22145176
https://discussions.apple.com/messag...23456#22142241

Since this is a latent defect, I'm wondering if any laws protect the consumer against Apple? I'd like to take them to small claims court over it, but I'm trying to figure out if they, in fact, are in violation of any laws. I am in the state of Connecticut, and they refused to address the issue twice in the state of Rhode Island. I'm thinking that there must be some law that addresses monetary damages in relation to latent defects? Everything I find out there is just product liability about injury or death, not monetary losses.

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Old Jun 1, 2013, 10:25 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
So I have an early 2011 Macbook Pro that has the ATI graphics card issue. It is a latent defect, and a class issue, which Apple so far has refused to acknowledge.

https://discussions.apple.com/messag...23456#22145176
https://discussions.apple.com/messag...23456#22142241

Since this is a latent defect, I'm wondering if any laws protect the consumer against Apple? I'd like to take them to small claims court over it, but I'm trying to figure out if they, in fact, are in violation of any laws. I am in the state of Connecticut, and they refused to address the issue twice in the state of Rhode Island. I'm thinking that there must be some law that addresses monetary damages in relation to latent defects? Everything I find out there is just product liability about injury or death, not monetary losses.

Mods please move if this is the wrong forum.
There is no lawsuit because there is no problem. I had 2 2011 MacBooks, one sold and another one exchanged. But neither had the problem you described and many others don't.
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Old Jun 1, 2013, 11:11 PM   #3
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There is no lawsuit because there is no problem.
Read those forum threads. The early 2011's have a latent defect. Now what I want to know is if there are any laws that protect the consumer here in the US, or if Apple can just screw us.

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I had 2 2011 MacBooks, one sold and another one exchanged. But neither had the problem you described and many others don't.
That is totally irrelevant. I'm sure there's plenty of 2007 and 2010 MBP's that are out there and are just fine too.
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Old Jun 1, 2013, 11:54 PM   #4
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If you feel that strongly about, and it affects you that much, then take Apple to small claims court over it. That's going to be your best option until the issue is escalated through other means.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 12:42 AM   #5
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Sorry, the forums are down for maintenance: what's the problem with the 2011 MBPs? Curious because I had a 6750M in my 15" fail recently and after some friendly insistence we got them to replace the MLB on the house.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 12:52 AM   #6
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If you feel that strongly about, and it affects you that much, then take Apple to small claims court over it. That's going to be your best option until the issue is escalated through other means.
That's what I'm trying to do, as so far Apple has flat out refused to address the problem or even acknowledge that it exists. What I am trying to figure out in this thread is what laws are applicable to defective products like this when the damages are purely monetary, and not loss of life/ loss of other property. It's no use going to small claims court if there is no consumer protection law that would apply, as I wouldn't be able to win. If there is a law that applies, then it's a pretty clear win. Once I find the law(s) that apply, it should be a simple case. It costs $500 to repair, so I ask for $500 in damages to then pay Apple to fix it.

----------

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Originally Posted by sammich View Post
Sorry, the forums are down for maintenance: what's the problem with the 2011 MBPs? Curious because I had a 6750M in my 15" fail recently and after some friendly insistence we got them to replace the MLB on the house.
The graphics card won't work properly. When I try going to the external, the whole machine freezes solid. I don't really care about the graphics, except for the fact that you can't drive an external with the Intel graphics, because they didn't wire the thing to do that.

How did you get them to do that? I have been to the Apple Store twice and called Apple Care once, and they flat out refused to fix it. That's why I feel like small claims court is the last option, but I have to figure out what law they are breaking by not acknowledging and fixing a latent defect in their machine.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 01:04 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
That's what I'm trying to do, as so far Apple has flat out refused to address the problem or even acknowledge that it exists. What I am trying to figure out in this thread is what laws are applicable to defective products like this when the damages are purely monetary, and not loss of life/ loss of other property. It's no use going to small claims court if there is no consumer protection law that would apply, as I wouldn't be able to win. If there is a law that applies, then it's a pretty clear win. Once I find the law(s) that apply, it should be a simple case. It costs $500 to repair, so I ask for $500 in damages to then pay Apple to fix it.
Then I would suggest that you look elsewhere for that information. You're asking in a forum dedicated to Macbook Pro's. It's not a law forum, much less one that deals with state laws in the USA. While you may be lucky enough and have a lawyer that owns a Macbook Pro, who also deals in Consumer Protection law, stumble across this forum while browsing them to read or post about the Macbook Pro, you would stand a much better chance of finding your answers in a more appropriate forum.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 01:07 AM   #8
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The graphics card won't work properly. When I try going to the external, the whole machine freezes solid. I don't really care about the graphics, except for the fact that you can't drive an external with the Intel graphics, because they didn't wire the thing to do that.

How did you get them to do that? I have been to the Apple Store twice and called Apple Care once, and they flat out refused to fix it. That's why I feel like small claims court is the last option, but I have to figure out what law they are breaking by not acknowledging and fixing a latent defect in their machine.
Yeah, that's exactly what happened to my machine. At first it just died unexpectedly, on reboot it gave me an alternating green vertical lines, another reboot got me back. It was fine for a few days after that (including GPU) then it just went downhill, first IGP only, then it wouldn't boot at all.

I took it into the store, got a quote and told them I'd consider my options (credit card extended warranty, but I was out of that too). When the part arrived, the store called and I asked them what other avenues, such as some kind of discount on a new machine. After that I left for OS and was out of contact. On return another couple of calls and I told them the machine should have lasted longer, and they agreed over a follow up call.

So, I took it into them and got it back the next day.

Also of note: not even 9 days before the first failure, I had taken it in for a battery replacement. When I took in the machine after it died, I was assured that the failure was a coincidence and not some negligence of the technician replacing the battery. I think it was about 2 weeks between the battery replacement and me getting the quote.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 03:06 AM   #9
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I don't think there is much in terms of consumer protection in the US that would apply in this case.

I'm not sure how you distinguish between a defect and a latent defect. Even in the latter case, it is not necessarily clear that Apple has to pay for the monetary loss.

It might be useful to look up how the case with the 8600 GT graphics defect was handled.

As far as I understand, one has to be able to show that normal use necessarily leads to a certain failure, or that failure rates are vastly above average for that type of product. Note that a few people on a forum is usually not enough for this
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 04:32 AM   #10
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Does not USA have any kind of consumer laws regarding this (statutory warranty)? Here in the EU we have a minimum of 2 years (3 here in Sweden) where you can make a claim if the product is defective for a free repair.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 04:50 AM   #11
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Does not USA have any kind of consumer laws regarding this (statutory warranty)? Here in the EU we have a minimum of 2 years (3 here in Sweden) where you can make a claim if the product is defective for a free repair.
No they don't..

Americans will bend over backwards to give business protection but not consumers it's kinda sad really.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 05:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
What I am trying to figure out in this thread is what laws are applicable to defective products like this when the damages are purely monetary,
You'll need to talk to a lawyer to determine what laws are applicable (if any) from where you live. The membership here at MacRumors is all over the world where consumer laws vary extensively. Get some legal advice and if determined you can or should sue them, go for it.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 06:11 AM   #13
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No they don't..

Americans will bend over backwards to give business protection but not consumers it's kinda sad really.
Well, certainly we shouldn't be giving businesses special protection under the law, but neither should we be doing that for consumers. When you start passing laws to "protect" people from every little thing you end up in a totalitarian dictatorship.

I would have thought you Germans would be more sensitive to that outcome, LOL!

The best "law" for protecting "consumers" against Apple or any other big corporate interest is a natural one - CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Which is what these forums are for - doing your research before you buy then taking your chances based on the reputation of the company your dealing with. Nothing wrong with people protecting themselves like that - and staying free in the process!


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Old Jun 2, 2013, 06:38 AM   #14
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Well, certainly we shouldn't be giving businesses special protection under the law, but neither should we be doing that for consumers. When you start passing laws to "protect" people from every little thing you end up in a totalitarian dictatorship.

I would have thought you Germans would be more sensitive to that outcome, LOL!

The best "law" for protecting "consumers" against Apple or any other big corporate interest is a natural one - CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Which is what these forums are for - doing your research before you buy then taking your chances based on the reputation of the company your dealing with. Nothing wrong with people protecting themselves like that - and staying free in the process!


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Not German, American corporate person-hood is corporate protection, The EU has for year had warranties/guarantee's that cover latent defects.

The best laws are the ones that protect the person who doesn't have the assets to fight large corporations hence leveling the field.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 06:47 AM   #15
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[MOD NOTE]
We're venturing dangerously close to PRSI subject matter. If this thread is to remain open, it cannot be derailed by political discussions
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 07:48 AM   #16
BiggAW
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Originally Posted by duervo View Post
Then I would suggest that you look elsewhere for that information. You're asking in a forum dedicated to Macbook Pro's. It's not a law forum, much less one that deals with state laws in the USA. While you may be lucky enough and have a lawyer that owns a Macbook Pro, who also deals in Consumer Protection law, stumble across this forum while browsing them to read or post about the Macbook Pro, you would stand a much better chance of finding your answers in a more appropriate forum.
I am also posting on a legal forum. I wanted to get as wide a range of perspectives as possible- plus we must have some lawyers on MR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammich View Post
Yeah, that's exactly what happened to my machine. At first it just died unexpectedly, on reboot it gave me an alternating green vertical lines, another reboot got me back. It was fine for a few days after that (including GPU) then it just went downhill, first IGP only, then it wouldn't boot at all.

I took it into the store, got a quote and told them I'd consider my options (credit card extended warranty, but I was out of that too). When the part arrived, the store called and I asked them what other avenues, such as some kind of discount on a new machine. After that I left for OS and was out of contact. On return another couple of calls and I told them the machine should have lasted longer, and they agreed over a follow up call.

So, I took it into them and got it back the next day.

Also of note: not even 9 days before the first failure, I had taken it in for a battery replacement. When I took in the machine after it died, I was assured that the failure was a coincidence and not some negligence of the technician replacing the battery. I think it was about 2 weeks between the battery replacement and me getting the quote.
Yeah, that's the same issue. Mine wouldn't boot at one point, but the first trip to the Apple store actually fixed that, and now it's stable on the Intel graphics. I haven't looked at credit card extended warranties, although I don't really care. My goal is to get Apple to pay for it, as it is their problem.

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Originally Posted by thundersteele View Post
I don't think there is much in terms of consumer protection in the US that would apply in this case.

I'm not sure how you distinguish between a defect and a latent defect. Even in the latter case, it is not necessarily clear that Apple has to pay for the monetary loss.

It might be useful to look up how the case with the 8600 GT graphics defect was handled.

As far as I understand, one has to be able to show that normal use necessarily leads to a certain failure, or that failure rates are vastly above average for that type of product. Note that a few people on a forum is usually not enough for this
That's a good idea. I'll read through that case. I'm also moving this week, but I'll try to get some time to read through it and see what their argument was. They went for a larger lawsuit, not small claims court. Small claims court is generally very pro-consumer, especially in a state like Connecticut, and the burden of proof isn't as thorough as it would be in a large class-action or other large legal action, but the damages are limited to monetary damages for one case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris.w View Post
Does not USA have any kind of consumer laws regarding this (statutory warranty)? Here in the EU we have a minimum of 2 years (3 here in Sweden) where you can make a claim if the product is defective for a free repair.
Nope.

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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
No they don't..

Americans will bend over backwards to give business protection but not consumers it's kinda sad really.
^^^This. Our government doesn't care about the consumer. They are all paid off by the big businesses.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 08:00 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
No they don't..

Americans will bend over backwards to give business protection but not consumers it's kinda sad really.
Actually, we do; but only if the manufacturer choses to warranty the item; along with common law "fitness for purpose."

It's a trade off; Europeans generally pay more for the same items because expected warranty costs are included in the sales price; in the US we can add to the warranty if we are willing to pay extra.

For the OP: Did you take it in while it was still under warranty? If so, I'd gather all the information from that - when, what, etc., as it may help you if you do go to small claims court. Before that, you could try to work through Apple showing them the timeline of your issue.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 08:19 AM   #18
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Actually, we do; but only if the manufacturer chooses to warranty the item; along with common law "fitness for purpose."

It's a trade off; Europeans generally pay more for the same items because expected warranty costs are included in the sales price; in the US we can add to the warranty if we are willing to pay extra.


For the OP: Did you take it in while it was still under warranty? If so, I'd gather all the information from that - when, what, etc., as it may help you if you do go to small claims court. Before that, you could try to work through Apple showing them the timeline of your issue.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 08:19 AM   #19
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Actually, we do; but only if the manufacturer choses to warranty the item; along with common law "fitness for purpose."

It's a trade off; Europeans generally pay more for the same items because expected warranty costs are included in the sales price; in the US we can add to the warranty if we are willing to pay extra.

For the OP: Did you take it in while it was still under warranty? If so, I'd gather all the information from that - when, what, etc., as it may help you if you do go to small claims court. Before that, you could try to work through Apple showing them the timeline of your issue.
It's 2 years old, and the warranty was a year I think, definitely not more than that. I'm trying to figure out if there are any protections specifically against class-issue type of defects.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 09:37 AM   #20
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Americans will bend over backwards to give business protection but not consumers it's kinda sad really.
The businesses bribe Congress to protect themselves. Consumers don't have that kind of money to bribe Congress.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 10:41 AM   #21
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Actually, we do; but only if the manufacturer choses to warranty the item; along with common law "fitness for purpose."

It's a trade off; Europeans generally pay more for the same items because expected warranty costs are included in the sales price; in the US we can add to the warranty if we are willing to pay extra.

For the OP: Did you take it in while it was still under warranty? If so, I'd gather all the information from that - when, what, etc., as it may help you if you do go to small claims court. Before that, you could try to work through Apple showing them the timeline of your issue.
The issue..

I pushed this thread to PRSI and I do apologize
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 10:47 AM   #22
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1. You have to prove that this is a latent defect. A bunch of customers experiencing similar failures is not a proof.

2. You can buy additional warranty (Apple Care) to protect you from hardware failures.

3. Even if there is a latent defect, who is at fault, Apple or AMD?

To sum it up: I don't see any big chances for this case. I think the core point is the warranty law - it its legal for Apple to provide one year warranty, then any failure which happens later is not their problem. A latent defect is a defect which is already present at the moment of purchase. I fail to see how you are able to distinguish between a latent defect and an occasional failure.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 10:58 AM   #23
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1. You have to prove that this is a latent defect. A bunch of customers experiencing similar failures is not a proof.

2. You can buy additional warranty (Apple Care) to protect you from hardware failures.

3. Even if there is a latent defect, who is at fault, Apple or AMD?

To sum it up: I don't see any big chances for this case. I think the core point is the warranty law - it its legal for Apple to provide one year warranty, then any failure which happens later is not their problem. A latent defect is a defect which is already present at the moment of purchase. I fail to see how you are able to distinguish between a latent defect and an occasional failure.
This is a latent defect, and we know that because of the pattern of failures. It's not just an isolated, random hardware failure. If I was, I wouldn't have any issue just paying the $500 to get it replaced.

So the question is, do any laws protect me in the case of a latent defect?
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 03:20 PM   #24
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[MOD NOTE]
We're venturing dangerously close to PRSI subject matter. If this thread is to remain open, it cannot be derailed by political discussions
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The issue..

I pushed this thread to PRSI and I do apologize
What is PRSI?

Wikipedia references the French Socialist Party and the Irish welfare system, both of which might actually be apropos given the thread subject and tenor.

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Old Jun 2, 2013, 03:42 PM   #25
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What is PRSI?

Wikipedia references the French Socialist Party and the Irish welfare system, both of which might actually be apropos given the thread subject and tenor.

Political religion sex something???... I couldn't figure it out either. It's not a real acronym.
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