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Old Jun 6, 2013, 06:52 AM   #1
abz1981
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NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

source:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...on-court-order
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:22 AM   #2
bad03xtreme
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Yet another scandal under Obama (NSA Verizon phone records)

So this morning the White House acknowledged that they did in fact request a top secret order from the National Security Agency to collect the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers. So will all those libs that called for Bush's head speak up this time or will they just fall in line and keep quiet? Just another scandal to add to the growing list under the current administration.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:29 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by bad03xtreme View Post
So this morning the White House acknowledged that they did in fact request a top secret order from the National Security Agency to collect the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers. So will all those libs that called for Bush's head speak up this time or will they just fall in line and keep quiet? Just another scandal to add to the growing list under the current administration.
Are you actually aggrieved at this gross invasion of privacy or more interested in trying to score vacuous political points?

You are a large part of what is wrong with the political process.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:35 AM   #4
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Are you actually aggrieved at this gross invasion of privacy or more interested in trying to score vacuous political points?

You are a large part of what is wrong with the political process.
Political points, look at the title.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:35 AM   #5
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As a conservative - note: NOT Republican - I said it was wrong under W, and it is wrong now.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:38 AM   #6
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I believe it was wrong when Bush did it and it's still just as wrong today. I am just curious to see if everyone that expressed outrage then will do the same now.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:46 AM   #7
.Andy
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I am just curious to see if everyone that expressed outrage then will do the same now.
Again, you are part of the problem with politics. The pressing issue is not nameless libs on MR, it is an invasion of privacy by your government. Concentrating on the former distracts from the latter. It's why political discourse in your country is ridiculously broken. Congratulations on being part of the white noise.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 09:01 AM   #8
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Political blame aside (and there's plenty to go around.....the Rs could have done something about the reach of the Patriot Act by now too), the program itself is atrocious. Blanket tracking of all customers without any sort of probable cause is something that should be out of bounds regardless of whether you have a D, I or R next to your political affiliation.

The administration's generic line about this being a vital tool in combating terrorism is a glimpse at just how tone deaf DC is on a whole.

And you know.....you just know....that Verizon isn't the only carrier handing this info over.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 09:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad03xtreme View Post
So this morning the White House acknowledged that they did in fact request a top secret order from the National Security Agency to collect the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers. So will all those libs that called for Bush's head speak up this time or will they just fall in line and keep quiet? Just another scandal to add to the growing list under the current administration.
People like you just make me sad. Hopefully at some point you'll come to understand the pointlessness of political scoreboards.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 09:40 AM   #10
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The reason this hits a raw nerve is because it is possible this violates the constitution. If there is no probable cause, then they have no right to do broad search and seizure of records from all customers. The FISA warrant is a farce.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 09:52 AM   #11
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Out of curiosity, do you have an expectation of privacy in what numbers you dial from your phone? I'm not talking about the content of the calls, but who you call? Do you dial your phone with the reasonable assumption that no one will ever be able to know who you called, when you called, or for how long you talked? I ask, because you know that caller ID exists. You know that the recipient of the call knows you called, and you know that if the recipient is breaking the law, that law enforcement can obtain information about your call. Where is the expectation of privacy?
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 10:08 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
Out of curiosity, do you have an expectation of privacy in what numbers you dial from your phone? I'm not talking about the content of the calls, but who you call? Do you dial your phone with the reasonable assumption that no one will ever be able to know who you called, when you called, or for how long you talked? I ask, because you know that caller ID exists. You know that the recipient of the call knows you called, and you know that if the recipient is breaking the law, that law enforcement can obtain information about your call. Where is the expectation of privacy?
The expectation of privacy exists in the assumption that, if no laws are being broken, that the government has no right or business intercepting any information about your call. Caller ID exists as a method of communication between the caller and recipient, letting the person on the other end know who is calling and allowing them make a decision as to whether or not to answer.

But that's not even what's in play here. Verizon is being compelled to hand over information on all activity , so this isn't a case where the NSA is pulling in info off of some caller ID snooping program. They are getting the metadata straight from the carrier.

And this is just the stuff we actually know about.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 10:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
Out of curiosity, do you have an expectation of privacy in what numbers you dial from your phone? I'm not talking about the content of the calls, but who you call? Do you dial your phone with the reasonable assumption that no one will ever be able to know who you called, when you called, or for how long you talked? I ask, because you know that caller ID exists. You know that the recipient of the call knows you called, and you know that if the recipient is breaking the law, that law enforcement can obtain information about your call. Where is the expectation of privacy?
In my neighborhood, this old-fashioned thing called "mail" often gets misdelivered. Quite frequently. So, we all deliver the mail to the correct neighbor. As far as I know, there is no expectation of privacy on the envelope, although I believe it is a felony to deliberately open a private letter. Likewise, I believe that lots of people may know who called whom on the phone, or who texted whom, even if they don't know the contents. For example, the person paying the phone bill, whether they be parent, or, employer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The expectation of privacy exists in the assumption that, if no laws are being broken, that the government has no right or business intercepting any information about your call. Caller ID exists as a method of communication between the caller and recipient, letting the person on the other end know who is calling and allowing them make a decision as to whether or not to answer.

But that's not even what's in play here. Verizon is being compelled to hand over information on all activity , so this isn't a case where the NSA is pulling in info off of some caller ID snooping program. They are getting the metadata straight from the carrier.

And this is just the stuff we actually know about.
I believe that they are already required to keep records of all calls, and texts, and, in some cases, ISPs are required to record and keep track of DHCP IP address assignments. And, if the government delivers a letter asking for the records, they deliver the records. As far as I know, what is different now with the Patriot Act is the FISA letter rather than a search warrant. The records are already there. It is just a question of which records the government gets and when it gets them.

If this is a partisan Republican/Democrat thing now, I have to ask, if President Obama ordered government employees not to use the FISA procedure and always go to a judge and get a signed order, and, it resulted in a delay that caused some terrorist act to succeed -- hypothetically, let's say, that the Tsarnaev brothers were able to escape, went to D.C., and killed some more people -- would the Republican critics be OK with that? I'm guessing just the opposite -- Fox News would go crazy over it.

My point is that this is not an inherently Republican/Democrat partisan issue. It is a question of what powers you want the government to have when a law enforcement case becomes a national security case.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 10:38 AM   #14
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In my neighborhood, this old-fashioned thing called "mail" often gets misdelivered. Quite frequently. So, we all deliver the mail to the correct neighbor.
As a kid I thought this was cool, as an adult I would not be appreciative.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by bad03xtreme View Post
So this morning the White House acknowledged that they did in fact request a top secret order from the National Security Agency to collect the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers. So will all those libs that called for Bush's head speak up this time or will they just fall in line and keep quiet? Just another scandal to add to the growing list under the current administration.

You are aware that this is nothing new and has been going on for over 7 years.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by bad03xtreme View Post
I believe it was wrong when Bush did it and it's still just as wrong today. I am just curious to see if everyone that expressed outrage then will do the same now.
Whether you feel it's wrong or not, Bush never got any warrants to do so. At least Obama went the legit route of doing this.

Names, Addresses, and account info was not collected. Only the content. In a world where banks, credit agencies, and corporations collect EVERYTHING about you, people really shouldn't give a damn about this. IMO, just another GOP smear campaign.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:20 AM   #17
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You are aware that this is nothing new and has been going on for over 7 years.
Ya but Obama was going to reverse all of those evil Bush policies remember.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:23 AM   #18
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Ya but Obama was going to reverse all of those evil Bush policies remember.

Where did I write that I support this? I am as against this as I was when Bush did it. At least Obama got warrants.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:26 AM   #19
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Where did I write that I support this? I am as against this as I was when Bush did it. At least Obama got warrants.
I really was hoping that Obama was going to end some of these illegal policies, he just seems to be speeding the train ahead.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:31 AM   #20
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It's amazing that when questioned, no one at the top knows anything about any of the recent events. Can't remember. Doesn't know what accountability means, and is usually in the wind. Pops up when the photo op is attractive, and promises to get to the bottom of things. Then like some master magician disappears again.

Thankfully the American public doesn't care either. No pressure, no complaints, just smooth sailing. Life at the top circa 2013 is sweet
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:43 AM   #21
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In an ideal world where people could have confidence and trust in their government, I don't think that there's anything wrong with this, especially considering that it's in the realms of national security—"You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide."

However, the US Government has demonstrated year after year, regardless of party, that it is easily corrupted, both by individual and corporate interests. With this, I can understand why people wouldn't trust the US Federal Government and so why this kind of action is looked at very negatively.

In addition to this collection of data, it doesn't help the argument that corporations such as AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile actually charge the government for similar services. Seems to be the final nail in the coffin for me: the American taxpayer is actually paying these companies to help surveil them. They state that they don't make a profit from these services, but, really, who believes them?
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 05:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
Out of curiosity, do you have an expectation of privacy in what numbers you dial from your phone? I'm not talking about the content of the calls, but who you call? Do you dial your phone with the reasonable assumption that no one will ever be able to know who you called, when you called, or for how long you talked? I ask, because you know that caller ID exists. You know that the recipient of the call knows you called, and you know that if the recipient is breaking the law, that law enforcement can obtain information about your call. Where is the expectation of privacy?
Well, in line with the point you're making: this is probably not any new, sinister database we're talking about here. This is information Verizon, AT&T, etc., already collect. You know that because it's on your bill. They are simply sharing it with the NSA so that it can be filtered for calls made to known (or strongly suspected) terrorists overseas or at home.

I have to admit to being on the fence on this one. I do see a valid reason for it, as long as the government is going to a FISA court and getting judicial authorization before actually starting to monitor suspicious calls.

The thing is, Obama may be doing it by the book, but will that be true of the next president?
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 06:10 PM   #23
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What is the big deal?

The more information the government has about you the safer it can make it for everyone.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 06:48 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bad03xtreme View Post
The reason this hits a raw nerve is because it is possible this violates the constitution. If there is no probable cause, then they have no right to do broad search and seizure of records from all customers. The FISA warrant is a farce.
This hits a nerve for me too. I just find it aggravating when everyone takes sides based on abstract ideological concepts. If it was a case of one of the two leading parties being firmly against this in their actions, you might have a point. I hate posturing.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 07:21 PM   #25
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Back in 08 Obama said "no warrantless wiretaps if you elect me"

Who knew he would get a warrant for the whole country to get around that......
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