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Old Jun 8, 2013, 05:52 PM   #1
smileman
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Broadwell vs. Haswell Air: worth waiting for?

Supposedly Broadwell will allow laptops like the Air to do away with fans entirely, which sounds incredible in terms of space savings, eliminating noise, battery savings, etc.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/06/h...aswell-tablet/

I'm guessing if the Broadwell Air can do away with a fan entirely then that is when we'll see the next design refresh.

So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?

Last edited by smileman; Jun 8, 2013 at 05:57 PM.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 06:19 PM   #2
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I can't find what is used in that reference spec, but intel makes a lot of claims when projecting far out.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 06:42 PM   #3
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do away with fans entirely?? wow, that sounds terrific. But, I won't be waiting.

There will always be something terrific right around the corner, theoretically. Often doesn't really work out that way. And if it turns out to really be that good, I could always sell my Haswell MBA and upgrade for a relatively modest cost.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 08:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by smileman View Post
...
So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?
That depends. How much do you need a new laptop?
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 09:05 PM   #5
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But by the time Broadwell comes out people will be saying that the next generation (farwell?) will have ??? and you should definitely wait for that.

You can wind up buying nothing if you keep postponing just to have 1 more feature.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 09:11 PM   #6
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Or buy now, use it for a year, and sell it for whatever you can. A couple hundred dollars of depreciation isn't a bad price for having a nice laptop for a year.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 09:22 PM   #7
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Talking OPs point posted earlier...

smileman wrote 9 June:
"Broadwell vs. Haswell Air: worth waiting for?
Supposedly Broadwell will allow laptops like the Air to do away with fans entirely, which sounds incredible in terms of space savings, eliminating noise, battery savings, etc.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/06/h...aswell-tablet/

I'm guessing if the Broadwell Air can do away with a fan entirely then that is when we'll see the next design refresh.

So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?
Last edited by smileman; Today at 00:57."


I wrote 8 June:

"Fanless Broadwell, and possible even Haswell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by skaertus View Post
I've seen nothing yet on heat dissipation on Broadwell. Where did you read the article?"

I answered 8 June:

"Engadget wrote this a few days ago:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/06/h...aswell-tablet/

It reads: "[...] We thought we wouldn't get to see a fanless Intel Core portable until Haswell's successor, Broadwell (and its even smaller 14nm chips) started doing the rounds in a few years [...]". (According to the roadmap Broadwell will be launched next summer, if my memory is correct.)""

But I didn't think that this info deserved a thread of its own. "smileman" obviously did think so.

Last edited by mortenandersen; Jun 8, 2013 at 09:33 PM.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 08:30 AM   #8
DisplacedMic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smileman View Post
Supposedly Broadwell will allow laptops like the Air to do away with fans entirely, which sounds incredible in terms of space savings, eliminating noise, battery savings, etc.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/06/h...aswell-tablet/

I'm guessing if the Broadwell Air can do away with a fan entirely then that is when we'll see the next design refresh.

So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?
well...considering the conference starts tomorrow....yeah - i would say it's at least worth waiting to see what's what.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 03:50 PM   #9
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Fanless? I wish. Not gonna happen for the following reasons:

Is in the folklore of Apple's history that when the first Mac was created, Jobs insisted NO FAN! So no need to tell Apple fan ain't cool, they know.

Fast forward to the iMac Cube, again Jobs insisted no fan and the Cube was plagued by heat problem.

Despite ever more efficient chips, Haswell, Broadwell, Faswell ^) whatever, Apple will always be pressured to keep the performance up to keep the competitors at bay and for the majority of customers who purchase by the numbers. We silent lovers are in the minority.

Performance = heat.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 11:11 PM   #10
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Is it worth waiting to see? Broadwell is at least one year away from us. And Intel may choose to delay it, as it has done with every processor since Sandy Bridge. Intel may find out that sales of Haswell are lagging, or may find another glitch in the product that delays it. Who knows? I've already waited forever for the release of Haswell, I'm not playing this game again.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 12:00 AM   #11
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Current leaked roadmaps are indicating a Haswell refresh in 2014, with Broadwell not arriving until 2015. The push to 14 nm is going to take time. Between leaks and everything else, Haswell started off as a "game changer" and over a years time became "improved graphics and some better power consumption numbers", with the real game-changing performance and power reductions coming with Broadwell. Until real people run real code, the numbers might as well be made up. Broadwell may be great, especially after a 2 year incubation time, or it may not be a awe-inspiring as we hope. We won't know until it makes it into the hands of reviewers (and preferably the "common man").
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 04:11 AM   #12
calvol
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I'm waiting:
- DDR4 memory
- IGZO display
- redesigned shell
- 14 nm process

That will be a huge jump in battery life.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 05:37 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by smileman View Post
So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?
Yes, waiting for Broadwell is a must, even if it's 2 years. Talk to you then.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 09:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smileman View Post
So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?
The next generation is always going to be better than the current.

You can keep waiting to infinity if you follow this way of thinking as there's always going to be something better just over the horizon.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvol View Post
I'm waiting:
- DDR4 memory
- IGZO display
- redesigned shell
- 14 nm process

That will be a huge jump in battery life.
To be honest the huge jump will be when we move away from the 1970's battery tech that we still use in today's products.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 01:28 PM   #15
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Fanless will only be true for the Y series Broadwells. Like the Y series Haswells are almost cool enough to go fanless. One can probably do it already but usually you'd need extra weight to pull of some decent passive cooling. On a tablet it is easy just make the underside a cooling block with some rifled design to increase surface area.

You won't see a MBA fanless because that would be a huge downgrade. Broadwell is just 14nm but otherwise will mostly be quite similar to Haswell. There are some efficiency gains but nothing that will get the performance of a 15W CPU down to <8 for passive cooling.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 03:43 PM   #16
calvol
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I'm definitely waiting for Broadwell now, looks like Haswell runs HOT!

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...haswell-heat/1

Even hotter than Ivy, which was hotter than SB!
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 07:22 PM   #17
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Are there any good sources for finding out what performance increases / other benefits Broadwell and Skylake may bring? When are they supposed to be going mainstream? Could do with a good simple source for chip news.

I'd love a silent laptop more than almost anything. That's the dream.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 02:28 PM   #18
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Are there any good sources for finding out what performance increases / other benefits Broadwell and Skylake may bring? When are they supposed to be going mainstream? Could do with a good simple source for chip news.

I'd love a silent laptop more than almost anything. That's the dream.
Broadwell is a die shrink of Haswell, from 22 to 14nm. Skylane is a whole new architecture, with the 14nm process. I expect performance to be very slightly increased from Haswell to Broadwell, as well as better thermal management thanks to the new process. As for Skylane, I don't really know what to expect.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 02:55 PM   #19
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I'm all for waiting, if it's 2-3 months. But when something has literally JUST been released, that you want to wait for the NEXT release, frankly seems silly.
There's always going to be better technology around the corner.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 02:57 PM   #20
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Haswell runs HOT!
The opposite is true.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 03:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smileman View Post
Supposedly Broadwell will allow laptops like the Air to do away with fans entirely, which sounds incredible in terms of space savings, eliminating noise, battery savings, etc.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/06/h...aswell-tablet/

I'm guessing if the Broadwell Air can do away with a fan entirely then that is when we'll see the next design refresh.

So with Broadwell due out in a year's time would it be worth waiting for it?
I think you should wait for Skylake. It will be better than Broadwell. Oh wait, Skymont seems better than Skylake too. I think you should just wait for 10nm Skymont MBAs. It would be worth the wait. Just 3 years to go.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 08:04 PM   #22
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I'm definitely waiting for Broadwell now, looks like Haswell runs HOT!

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...haswell-heat/1

Even hotter than Ivy, which was hotter than SB!
Good luck then! Looks like Broadwell just got pushed back to 2015....

http://www.dailytech.com/Report+Inte...ticle31770.htm

To all who worry about temps, while transferring files from my Sandy Bridge i5 2011 Macbook Air, to my new 2013 i7 MBA: The 2013 was dead silent while the 2011 fans were spinning up. Both sitting next to each other, both doing the same "work"....

Just sayin!
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 10:19 PM   #23
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I'm definitely waiting for Broadwell now, looks like Haswell runs HOT!
It runs hot if you overclock it, which Apple does not do. The crux of that article was that system builders who are configuring systems that deliberately overclock the non-mobile Haswell CPUs, are bellyaching because the top overclock speed of production Haswell chips is lower than than preproduction samples, before they start to melt down.

Chip manufacturers don't, and never have, guarantee performance at speeds beyond what they've rated.

I any case, everyone so far with a 2013 MBA has said it doesn't run hot at all. Mine's arriving tomorrow, so I'll probably run some h.264 video transcodes (which I normally do on an iMac) and take my non-contact thermometer to it and see what happens.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 03:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredpoet View Post
It runs hot if you overclock it, which Apple does not do. The crux of that article was that system builders who are configuring systems that deliberately overclock the non-mobile Haswell CPUs, are bellyaching because the top overclock speed of production Haswell chips is lower than than preproduction samples, before they start to melt down.

Chip manufacturers don't, and never have, guarantee performance at speeds beyond what they've rated.

I any case, everyone so far with a 2013 MBA has said it doesn't run hot at all. Mine's arriving tomorrow, so I'll probably run some h.264 video transcodes (which I normally do on an iMac) and take my non-contact thermometer to it and see what happens.
Any update on your findings?
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 05:53 AM   #25
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Im currently waiting for a Haswell rMBP because its literally round the corner.
I wouldnt wait a full year for an update. Seriously just buy the machine and enjoy it. Every year something better will come along, thats just the nature of technology. You can wait a year, and you'll hear rumours of the developments for the following year, which will be much better etc. Its a continuous cycle. Where will you stop?
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