Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:12 PM   #1
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Is protecting from terrorism worth it?

Quote:
The thrust of this argument is simple: terrorism is such a minor threat to American life and limb that it's simply bizarre—just stupefyingly irrational and intellectually unserious—to suppose that it could even begin to justify the abolition of privacy rights as they have been traditionally understood in favour of the installation of a panoptic surveillance state. Would Americans give up their second-amendment rights if it were to save 3000 lives? Well, it would, but we won't. Surely the re-abolition of alchohol would save more than 3000 lives, but we're not about to discuss it. Why not? Because liberty is important to us and we won't sell it cheaply. Why should we feel differently about our precious fourth-amendment rights?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...-state-secrecy

I frankly really strongly agree with this - all this extra surveillance is expensive and not worth giving up our freedoms for.
__________________
Actually it does make sense. Man created god, so if we exist, He exists. - obeygiant
Eraserhead is online now   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:28 PM   #2
vrDrew
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
A good question.

Since 1999 how many Americans have been killed by terrorism? (Answer, approximately 3000). How many have been killed by gun violence? 364,000.



So, even including the worst ever terrorist incident in US history, its still pretty clear that guns are a hundred times more likely to kill us than terrorists.
vrDrew is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:32 PM   #3
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Quote:
Would Americans give up their second-amendment rights if it were to save 3000 lives?
The Economist is off by ~27,000 on that one.

But it is a difficult question. We obviously do trade off security for freedom in a number of ways. So IMO, it's a question of degree, results and unintended consequences.

Take our current NSA issue. It would clearly be a bad program if we had a number of people scooped up in the process who never had done anything except use the words 'bomb' in an email or phone call.

So I'll start with that premise: security measures become questionable when they tangibly compromise the lives of innocent people.
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:33 PM   #4
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
The War on Terror is just like another failed war, the War on Drugs. As usual, our priorities are ****ed up.


Toddlers Killed More Americans Than Terrorists Did This Year

Quote:
Listed below are the 11 gun fatalities I found where a preschooler pulled the trigger (from Jan. 1 to June 9, 2013). Starting with a list of five toddler shooting deaths The Jewish Daily Forward published in early May, I unearthed six additional cases. This tragic, unthinkable event has happened every month, like clock-work.

Jan. 10: 6-year-old playmate shoots and kills 4-year-old Trinity Ross, Kansas City, Kan.

Feb. 11: 4-year-old Joshua Johnson shoots and kills himself, Memphis, Tenn.

Feb. 24: 4-year-old Jaiden Pratt dies after shooting himself in the stomach while his father sleeps, Houston.

March 30: 4-year-old Rahquel Carr shot and killed either by 6-year-old brother or another young playmate, Miami.

April 6: Josephine Fanning, 48, shot and killed by 4-year-old boy at a barbecue, Wilson County, Tenn.

April 8: 4-year-old shoots and kills 6-year-old friend Brandon Holt, Toms River, N.J.

April 9: 3-year-old is killed after he finds a pink gun that he thinks is a toy, Greenville, S.C.

April 30: 2-year-old Caroline Sparks killed by her 5-year-old brother with his Cricket “My First Rifle” marketed to kids, Cumberland County, Ky.

May 1: 3-year-old Darrien Nez shoots himself in the face and dies after finding his grandmother’s gun, Yuma, Ariz.

May 7: 3-year-old Jadarrius Speights fatally shoots himself with his uncle’s gun, Tampa, Fla.

June 7: 4-year-old fatally shoots his father, Green Beret Justin Thomas, Prescott Valley, Ariz.

At least 10 more toddlers have shot but not killed themselves or someone else this year (see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here). In the first three cases, the shooter was only 2 years old.

I also found nine instances where children and teens 7 to 19 years old accidentally killed themselves, a family member or friend since January (see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here).

Of course, most if not all of the above deaths and injuries can be attributed to careless adult gun owners.

While this analysis focuses on children, another equally accurate headline could read: “U.S. Gun Culture Kills More Americans Than Terrorists Worldwide.”

In 2010, 13,186 people died in terrorist attacks worldwide, while 31,672 people were killed with firearms in America alone, reports CNN’s Samuel Burke.
rdowns is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:46 PM   #5
MacNut
macrumors P6
 
MacNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
All these terror attacks that were supposedly stopped yet it did nothing to stop the Boston bombing.
__________________
The thoughts in my head are rated TV-MA. Viewer discretion is advised.
Now batting, Number 2 Derek Jeter, Number 2
MacNut is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:51 PM   #6
Peace
macrumors P6
 
Peace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Space--The ONLY Frontier
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
All these terror attacks that were supposedly stopped yet it did nothing to stop the Boston bombing.
^^THIS^^

Congress is blind..And I'm starting to think citizens are too.
Peace is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:53 PM   #7
iMikeT
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: California
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
iMikeT is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 04:55 PM   #8
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
All these terror attacks that were supposedly stopped yet it did nothing to stop the Boston bombing.
Exactly. You're never going to stop the ones who are completely set on causing terror. They will find a way.


I'll now sit here and wait for a gun nut to take that sentence and try to twist it into a reason why we shouldn't have any firearm regulations.
zioxide is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:01 PM   #9
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
All these terror attacks that were supposedly stopped ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
^^THIS^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Exactly.
What?!!!

Where did you ever get that idea?




Quote:
Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Ah yes. Yet another misuse of that quote.

If you're interested in learning why it shouldn't be thrown around so casually, please read this article, What Ben Franklin Really Said.
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:07 PM   #10
Peterkro
macrumors 68020
 
Peterkro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Communard de Londres
It may be a good idea to sort out what "terrorism" is,it seems to me those countries taking away their citizens freedoms are the very same countries carrying out the vast majority of the "terrorism".
Peterkro is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:23 PM   #11
Mac'nCheese
macrumors 68020
 
Mac'nCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
All these terror attacks that were supposedly stopped yet it did nothing to stop the Boston bombing.
Yeah but many things stop SOME bad from happening. It's like saying someone died in a car crash while wearing their seatbelt so no one has to. After all, all those people seatbelts supposedly saved yet they did nothing to save Peter. Peter, of course, being the guy who died in the car crash while wearing his seat belt. In case anyone was confused....
Mac'nCheese is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 05:33 PM   #12
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
All these terror attacks that were supposedly stopped yet it did nothing to stop the Boston bombing.
You're worrying me, dude. This sounds eerily similar to what Palin said the other day.
rdowns is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 06:23 PM   #13
skunk
macrumors Demi-God
 
skunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Ukistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterkro View Post
It may be a good idea to sort out what "terrorism" is,it seems to me those countries taking away their citizens freedoms are the very same countries carrying out the vast majority of the "terrorism".
Indeed, the number killed by state terrorism in any given year dwarfs the "designated" terrorists' toll.
__________________
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted the spoons." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
skunk is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 19, 2013, 07:11 PM   #14
rovex
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Of course it bloody isn't!

I don't even think the west is protecting anyone from terrorism, but encouraging it with close allies like qatar and saudi arabia that preach takfiri ideology, never mind the funding of jihadists to do the west's dirty work. (syria,libya):

http://youtu.be/7VGqd_GHtLE

Transnational Terrorism is just a fig leaf for economic and political imperialism.

Last edited by rovex; Jun 19, 2013 at 07:29 PM.
rovex is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:54 AM   #15
Merkava_4
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: USA
There are no real terrorists; they're all fabricated by the U.S. Government as an excuse to put surveillance systems in place to spy on U.S. citizens.
Merkava_4 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:37 AM   #16
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
There are no real terrorists; they're all fabricated by the U.S. Government as an excuse to put surveillance systems in place to spy on U.S. citizens.
Does terrorism exist outside the borders of the U.S.?
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:41 AM   #17
yg17
In Time-Out
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
There are no real terrorists; they're all fabricated by the U.S. Government as an excuse to put surveillance systems in place to spy on U.S. citizens.

Oy vey, not this again
yg17 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 08:48 AM   #18
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by yg17 View Post
Oy vey, not this again.
The thread has great potential to be an interesting a discussion.

I look forward to that happening.
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 09:30 AM   #19
VulchR
macrumors 68000
 
VulchR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Scotland
The 9/11 terrorist attacked a country with >252,000,000 people and killed slightly over 3000 people. That's about 0.001% of the US population. Yet the government seems to be intent in collecting information from all of us - no doubt a great expense, with the possibility of abuse of power, and perhaps even creating a security threat by maintaining a database of everyone's online activity that might get hacked.

I realize that the 9/11 attacks 'raised the bar' of terrorist atrocities, and that the intelligence and crime-fighting communities have been thwarting attacks. However, the moment we change core values regarding liberty is the moment the terrorists have won.
__________________
My first was a Mac+. Now I own an iPhone with 3.5x the pixels, a colour display, WiFi, 512x the RAM, >1500x the data storage, and 100x the speed. And it fits in the palm of my hand.
VulchR is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 10:37 AM   #20
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
The 9/11 terrorist attacked a country with >252,000,000 people and killed slightly over 3000 people. That's about 0.001% of the US population. Yet the government seems to be intent in collecting information from all of us - no doubt a great expense, with the possibility of abuse of power, and perhaps even creating a security threat by maintaining a database of everyone's online activity that might get hacked.
You need to look beyond the body count.

According to the NY Times, 9/11 costs total about $3.3 trillion dollars.

Quote:
Al Qaeda spent roughly half a million dollars to destroy the World Trade Center and cripple the Pentagon. What has been the cost to the United States? In a survey of estimates by The New York Times, the answer is $3.3 trillion, or about $7 million for every dollar Al Qaeda spent planning and executing the attacks. While not all of the costs have been borne by the government — and some are still to come — this total equals one-fifth of the current national debt. All figures are shown in today’s dollars.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...phic.html?_r=0
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:08 AM   #21
MacNut
macrumors P6
 
MacNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
You need to look beyond the body count.

According to the NY Times, 9/11 costs total about $3.3 trillion dollars.
The reason we were attacked on 9/11 was because out intelligence failed, not because there wasn't data on every American. Had the FBI and CIA done their jobs properly we would not have been attacked.
__________________
The thoughts in my head are rated TV-MA. Viewer discretion is advised.
Now batting, Number 2 Derek Jeter, Number 2
MacNut is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:16 AM   #22
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
The reason we were attacked on 9/11 was because out intelligence failed, not because there wasn't data on every American. Had the FBI and CIA done their jobs properly we would not have been attacked.
So you are arguing for some degree of protection ... for some degree of intelligence.

Good. So am I.
citizenzen is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:16 AM   #23
ohbrilliance
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Jon Stewart said it best:

"It seems to me we'll move heaven and earth to do whatever it takes to prevent weapons from falling into the hands of foreigners who might kill our citizens. Because apparently we think killing our citizens is our job."
ohbrilliance is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:18 AM   #24
MacNut
macrumors P6
 
MacNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
So you are arguing for some degree of protection ... for some degree of intelligence.

Good. So am I.
I am saying there is no need to spy on innocent people to collect data on bad guys.
__________________
The thoughts in my head are rated TV-MA. Viewer discretion is advised.
Now batting, Number 2 Derek Jeter, Number 2
MacNut is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20, 2013, 11:29 AM   #25
Happybunny
macrumors 68000
 
Happybunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 's-Hertogenbosch Netherlands
The problem with tackling terrorism is You have to be lucky every time, they only have to be lucky once.

9/11 changed for ever how the US lives, and not for the better.
__________________
'You cannot undo history, but you can learn from it'
Happybunny is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Halal Food Funds Terrorism niuniu Politics, Religion, Social Issues 8 Aug 10, 2013 04:43 PM
Water quality complaints could be 'act of terrorism' SilentPanda Politics, Religion, Social Issues 23 Jun 29, 2013 11:03 PM
Buy a Nexus 4, be more prepared for terrorism. jsw Alternatives to iOS and iOS Devices 5 Nov 15, 2012 11:08 PM
protecting hardware Acorn Mac Peripherals 2 Sep 21, 2012 10:19 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC