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Old Jun 22, 2013, 01:28 AM   #1
Merkava_4
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Edward Snowden Charged with Espionage

The moment we've all been waiting for. The United Police States of America charges Edward Snowden with espionage.

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Old Jun 22, 2013, 03:10 AM   #2
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Maybe there is a good case to say he committed espionage, maybe there are some defences he could run - I don't know but I was hoping the US would have the good sense to leave him alone. With any luck Hong Kong will tell the Yanks to bugger off. I'm sure any decision will take months or even years to go through the courts and appeals anyway.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 03:11 AM   #3
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Pretty sad, but expected .
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 03:31 AM   #4
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Maybe there is a good case to say he committed espionage, maybe there are some defences he could run - I don't know but I was hoping the US would have the good sense to leave him alone. With any luck Hong Kong will tell the Yanks to bugger off. I'm sure any decision will take months or even years to go through the courts and appeals anyway.
One day he will "mysteriously" disappear .
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 04:17 AM   #5
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One day he will "mysteriously" disappear .
a) That sounds very similar to what Alex Jones says.

b) Not in China he won't.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 04:41 AM   #6
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Sad but not unexpected. Snowden should be considered a hero, not a criminal.

Probably the most disappointing thing to me from this whole thing is I'd thought that Obama was going to be better than Bush when it comes to stopping things like this, but it turns out he's just as bad or worse.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 05:23 AM   #7
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So, he is being charged with espionage on the grounds that he made public the extent of the government's espionage. Byzantine doesn't cover it.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 05:25 AM   #8
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predictable, he knew it when he did what he did and Im sure hes got a plan.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 06:22 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
The moment we've all been waiting for. The United Police States of America charges Edward Snowden with espionage.

LINK
The only thing that surprised me about this, was that this didn't happen earlier.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 07:06 AM   #10
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Doesn't espionage mean one sells information for money? He didn't make a dime off of the information he gave away. He had a high paying job that paid $200k a year and he gave all that up so he could have a clear conscience.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 07:07 AM   #11
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Surely the government should be charging itself with espionage on the basis of Snowden's revelations.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 07:17 AM   #12
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Doesn't espionage mean one sells information for money? He didn't make a dime off of the information he gave away. He had a high paying job that paid $200k a year and he gave all that up so he could have a clear conscience.
It can be that, but spies are the charged with the same crime. Not just for money. That said, China will protect him and give him a life of luxury in exchange for all he knows.

People may think he's a hero now, but wait until he requests asylum in Beijing. Then he'll be more of a traitor.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:28 AM   #13
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It can be that, but spies are the charged with the same crime. Not just for money. That said, China will protect him and give him a life of luxury in exchange for all he knows.

People may think he's a hero now, but wait until he requests asylum in Beijing. Then he'll be more of a traitor.
Why would the Chinese want his information? I'm sure they have spies in the NSA who know as much as him who are much lower profile.

This is a PR win .
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:53 AM   #14
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Maybe there is a good case to say he committed espionage, maybe there are some defences he could run - I don't know but I was hoping the US would have the good sense to leave him alone. With any luck Hong Kong will tell the Yanks to bugger off. I'm sure any decision will take months or even years to go through the courts and appeals anyway.
Hong Kong has an extradition treating with the Us. Aka he was stupid to try and hid there
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:56 AM   #15
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So, he is being charged with espionage on the grounds that he made public the extent of the government's espionage. Byzantine doesn't cover it.
pretty mad stuff isn't it just.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:01 AM   #16
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So, he is being charged with espionage on the grounds that he made public the extent of the government's espionage. Byzantine doesn't cover it.
Would you go with ironic, paradoxical, incongruous...and somewhat Kafkaesque?
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:02 AM   #17
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Hong Kong has an extradition treating with the Us. Aka he was stupid to try and hid there
Yes, i don't understand what he was thinking. should of gone to Venezuela or even russia, they don't bend over to US hegemony.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:09 AM   #18
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One may certainly take issue with both the Constitutionality and the invasiveness of the surveillance programs Snowden revealed. But that doesn't make what he did any less illegal.

The US Government didn't really have any choice but to charge him with crimes in light of what he did. And while many people might applaud his actions, I for one, certainly do not. No unelected 29 year-old has the right to unilaterally decide for himself - no matter how deeply held his convictions - how this country's intelligence operations are to be conducted.

Lets be very clear about this: He knew, or he should have known, what he was getting into when he joined the intelligence community. Despite his lack of formal education he was (apparently) richly rewarded for his skills. And if he found some aspects of his work in conflict with his morals, he had numerous other options rather than betraying his country's trust in the way he did. He could have quietly resigned. He could have taken his concerns up the chain of command.

If Mr Snowden really thinks China and Hong Kong represent some sort of bastion of liberty and freedom from surveillance, then he is incredibly naive.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:12 AM   #19
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One day he will "mysteriously" disappear .
Erm... he's disappeared already. Indeed, I wonder if the PRC aren't pumping him for information about how to get access to the PRISM information, since they'd love to know what their citizens get up to in the West.

In any case, aren't there any federal statutes that protect whistle-blowers? (And yes, I would classify the release of PRISM as whistle-blowing in proportion to the information collected having nothing to do whatsoever with crime (probably >99.9999% of it) versus the vanishingly small proportion that is relevant to national security or law enforcement).
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:17 AM   #20
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One may certainly take issue with both the Constitutionality and the invasiveness of the surveillance programs Snowden revealed. But that doesn't make what he did any less illegal.

The US Government didn't really have any choice but to charge him with crimes in light of what he did. And while many people might applaud his actions, I for one, certainly do not. No unelected 29 year-old has the right to unilaterally decide for himself - no matter how deeply held his convictions - how this country's intelligence operations are to be conducted.

Lets be very clear about this: He knew, or he should have known, what he was getting into when he joined the intelligence community. Despite his lack of formal education he was (apparently) richly rewarded for his skills. And if he found some aspects of his work in conflict with his morals, he had numerous other options rather than betraying his country's trust in the way he did. He could have quietly resigned. He could have taken his concerns up the chain of command.

If Mr Snowden really thinks China and Hong Kong represent some sort of bastion of liberty and freedom from surveillance, then he is incredibly naive.
Sounds like you got your daily dose of Fox news this evening programme.

He never said china was a bastion of freedom and liberty, and wherever you heard that from is just trying to smear his name.

A betrayal to the country? LOL. Frankly, with the amount of lies and times the state's betrayed the people of america and everyone else in the world i don't think that argument can stand to scrutiny.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:19 AM   #21
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One may certainly take issue with both the Constitutionality and the invasiveness of the surveillance programs Snowden revealed. But that doesn't make what he did any less illegal.

The US Government didn't really have any choice but to charge him with crimes in light of what he did. And while many people might applaud his actions, I for one, certainly do not. No unelected 29 year-old has the right to unilaterally decide for himself - no matter how deeply held his convictions - how this country's intelligence operations are to be conducted.

Lets be very clear about this: He knew, or he should have known, what he was getting into when he joined the intelligence community. Despite his lack of formal education he was (apparently) richly rewarded for his skills. And if he found some aspects of his work in conflict with his morals, he had numerous other options rather than betraying his country's trust in the way he did. He could have quietly resigned. He could have taken his concerns up the chain of command.

If Mr Snowden really thinks China and Hong Kong represent some sort of bastion of liberty and freedom from surveillance, then he is incredibly naive.
While your argument is reasonable and well stated, I might suggest that civil and legal disobedience, with the expectation of punishment, has a long history. This case brings to mind the Daniel Ellsberg leaked revelations about the lies promulgated during the Viet Nam War.

I do not disagree with your premise that Snowden, like Ellesberg, broke his oath, and the law, and should expect and accept the consequences of their actions, I would be willing to consider that whistle blowing has value.

Whether irreparable damage has been done to the Itelligence Community is certainly open for discussion, it is also arguable, IMO, that the actions, though unlawful, had value.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:25 AM   #22
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No unelected 29 year-old has the right to unilaterally decide for himself - no matter how deeply held his convictions - how this country's intelligence operations are to be conducted.
Which is not what he is doing. Ostensibly, he is informing the US people about things done in their name which in his view need to be at least debated to assess their constitutionality.

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If Mr Snowden really thinks China and Hong Kong represent some sort of bastion of liberty and freedom from surveillance, then he is incredibly naive.
Of course he does not. But it is an English-speaking area, and the Chinese will be only too delighted to be seen protecting a US citizen from an abuse of his human rights by the US government.

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Would you go with ironic, paradoxical, incongruous...and somewhat Kafkaesque?
Oh, all right then.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:58 AM   #23
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While your argument is reasonable and well stated, I might suggest that civil and legal disobedience, with the expectation of punishment, has a long history. This case brings to mind the Daniel Ellsberg leaked revelations about the lies promulgated during the Viet Nam War.
Mr Ellsberg did not fly to Hanoi or Cuba in an attempt to avoid prosecution. We may argue in good faith about the merits of revealing the Pentagon Papers versus PRISM, but the fact of the matter is Ellsberg was prepared to take responsibility for his actions. Snowden, on the other hand, seems to be making every effort to ingratiate himself with his Chinese hosts, to the extent of telling them about the NSA's penetration of Chinese computer systems - a program I think few, if any, US citizens feel is contrary to our national values.

The fact of the matter is that China will most likely end up extraditing him to the US to face justice. But not without first squeezing considerable intelligence and PR value out of the situation. Snowden is not only a criminal, he's also a fool.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 10:03 AM   #24
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Mr Ellsberg did not fly to Hanoi or Cuba in an attempt to avoid prosecution. We may argue in good faith about the merits of revealing the Pentagon Papers versus PRISM, but the fact of the matter is Ellsberg was prepared to take responsibility for his actions. Snowden, on the other hand, seems to be making every effort to ingratiate himself with his Chinese hosts, to the extent of telling them about the NSA's penetration of Chinese computer systems - a program I think few, if any, US citizens feel is contrary to our national values.

The fact of the matter is that China will most likely end up extraditing him to the US to face justice. But not without first squeezing considerable intelligence and PR value out of the situation. Snowden is not only a criminal, he's also a fool.
And you don't think the Government are criminals for hijacking our personal informaton? Then saying that he "stole" government property, that the government itself stole from it's citizens.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 10:25 AM   #25
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Hong Kong has an extradition treating with the Us. Aka he was stupid to try and hid there
Ultimately I'm sure Beijing still has to agree to the extradition - it sounds like foreign affairs to me, something I'm sure they control.

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If Mr Snowden really thinks China and Hong Kong represent some sort of bastion of liberty and freedom from surveillance, then he is incredibly naive.
Mainland China isn't, but Hong Kong does have a lot of freedoms.

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The fact of the matter is that China will most likely end up extraditing him to the US to face justice.
Why would they do that?
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