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Old Jun 24, 2013, 12:48 PM   #1
tshrimp
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Student Denied Admission due to Race

I was wanting to get peoples take on this.

It look like the University of Texas has race as a part of the admittance criteria when not graduating in the top 10 percent of ones class.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...to-lower-court

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/10/162669...ve-action-plan

From the second link:

"Texas law guarantees that students who graduate in the top 10 percent of their class get in. The other 25 percent, those not in the top 10 percent, are admitted under a system that includes grades, board scores, essays and other factors like leadership, awards, community activities, economic circumstances and race."
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 12:55 PM   #2
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This is why America (and the world as a whole in some respects) needs to have more conversations dealing with race relations.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 01:52 PM   #3
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Personally, I wish Affirmative Action would move away from being race-based to socio-econmic based.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 02:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SwiftLives View Post
Personally, I wish Affirmative Action would move away from being race-based to socio-econmic based.
I agree. Centuries of discrimination have ensured that those with the darkest skins make up most of those on the bottom tier economically.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 02:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
I was wanting to get peoples take on this.

It look like the University of Texas has race as a part of the admittance criteria when not graduating in the top 10 percent of ones class.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...to-lower-court

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/10/162669...ve-action-plan

From the second link:

"Texas law guarantees that students who graduate in the top 10 percent of their class get in. The other 25 percent, those not in the top 10 percent, are admitted under a system that includes grades, board scores, essays and other factors like leadership, awards, community activities, economic circumstances and race."
Not sure how different this case is any different from the University of Michigan case 10 years ago.

Quote:
ANN ARBOR, Mich.—In a major victory for U-M announced June 23, the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the right of universities to consider race in admissions procedures in order to achieve a diverse student body.

In two lawsuits challenging University of Michigan admissions policies, the court ruled 5-4 in favor of the Law School and, by a vote of 6-3, reversed, in part, the University's undergraduate policy, while still allowing for the consideration of race in admissions.
http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20237

I personally don't like race, gender, religion and so on being considered for public schools or public/government jobs. You should be accepted or hired on your own merit or intelligence.

This very same tactic screwed my father over many years ago when he worked for the Chicago Fire Department. He was going for his captain's promotion where you take classes and a test. He passed the test with high marks and was in the top 5% of people tested. He was assured to get promoted within a few months. Well low and behold affirmative action people step in because a) there were only a few minority captains to begin with and b) there were not to many that scored well on the test. They wanted more minority captains to be promoted. As a result of this my father was passed over for people that scored lower on the test. It took him an extra year and half to get promoted because some people felt race was more important then intelligence.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 03:13 PM   #6
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Personally, I wish Affirmative Action would move away from being race-based to socio-econmic based.
I think there are plenty of bright low income students that can get into college just fine on their own.

Paying for it.....well, that's a whole different story.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 03:15 PM   #7
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Not sure how different this case is any different from the University of Michigan case 10 years ago.
It isn't. In fact, a reporter that covers SCOTUS on NPR had basically said that SCOTUS 'said what it meant and meant what it said' about the Michigan case 10 years ago. They are taking the stance on that one and applying it here, especially on the use of all situations and scenarios, which apparently the judge in this case did not apply, so it was sent back to that court to apply all of the situations to see how it pans out.

Either way, there's another Affirmative Action case coming out of Detroit that SCOTUS is going to take sometime later this year, so this Affirmative Action will be tried again.

BL.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 03:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
This very same tactic screwed my father over many years ago when he worked for the Chicago Fire Department. He was going for his captain's promotion where you take classes and a test. He passed the test with high marks and was in the top 5% of people tested. He was assured to get promoted within a few months. Well low and behold affirmative action people step in because a) there were only a few minority captains to begin with and b) there were not to many that scored well on the test. They wanted more minority captains to be promoted. As a result of this my father was passed over for people that scored lower on the test. It took him an extra year and half to get promoted because some people felt race was more important then intelligence.
That's not affirmative action, and the Fire Department just didn't know what it was doing.

Affirmative Action has nothing to do with hiring less-qualified individuals because of race. If an organization does, then they are just breaking the law, and doing a very poor job at instituting AA.

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Originally Posted by SwiftLives View Post
Personally, I wish Affirmative Action would move away from being race-based to socio-econmic based.
Unfortunately there will never be a colorblind America, so creating colorblind policies in a country that's 1.) not colorblind, and 2.) was built on non-colorblind ideals and racism won't help us get to a country that at the very least respects race, sex, religion, etc. equally.

AA has much more to do with equality than it does how much money one has.
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Last edited by Digital Skunk; Jun 24, 2013 at 03:38 PM.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 03:50 PM   #9
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I think there are plenty of bright low income students that can get into college just fine on their own.
Unless American Universities are very different from British ones I don't think that is true at all.

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The other 25 percent, those not in the top 10 percent, are admitted under a system that includes grades, board scores, essays and other factors like leadership, awards, community activities, economic circumstances and race."
Most of those factors will favour middle class and upper class kids over those from working class backgrounds .
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 04:02 PM   #10
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Most of those factors will favour middle class and upper class kids over those from working class backgrounds .
I agree, and I'd like to throw this link in to support that statement.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 07:11 PM   #11
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Unless American Universities are very different from British ones I don't think that is true at all.
No, american universities are in fact worse. Home students in the us can accumulate debts of 100,000 dollars by the end of their degree, which is ridiculous.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 03:19 AM   #12
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State and institutional sanctioned racism is great in a country where all men are created equal.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 04:02 AM   #13
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i don't even see how race can be a part of the consideration. what do they do go well hes Chinese and Chinese students do better in school then Americans so hes in. There are alot more important factors then race. it seems to me if you are considerind race you are using a pretty broad generalization.

Last edited by Acorn; Jun 25, 2013 at 04:07 AM.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 08:47 AM   #14
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State and institutional sanctioned racism is great in a country where all men are created equal.
Exactly! That's why I am so glad that AA exists . . . to help put those affected by such racism on an even playing field.

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i don't even see how race can be a part of the consideration. what do they do go well hes Chinese and Chinese students do better in school then Americans so hes in. There are alot more important factors then race. it seems to me if you are considerind race you are using a pretty broad generalization.
Race is just one aspect of it. Read the links.

The fact is, and I'll use universities as one example, if you come from a lower income family, it will be harder for you to get into and graduate from college. Not because you aren't smart or don't work hard enough, just that you have a lot of other factors going against you . . . in this case a lot of economic factors.

To put it into terms I am sure most on these forums can understand: Say you are a transgendered person, and the university denies you housing because it doesn't know if you should be in a female or male dorm. My junior year had me bunking with a transgendered person, and even at an HBCU it was a problem.

Those are just two of the most rudimentary examples of how AA is much broader than race.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 08:54 AM   #15
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State and institutional sanctioned racism is great in a country where all men are created equal.
I disagree. I think state and institutional sanctioned racism should be stamped out, which is why I oppose the GOP so vehemently.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 10:35 PM   #16
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I disagree. I think state and institutional sanctioned racism should be stamped out, which is why I oppose the GOP so vehemently.
I think he was being sarcastic. How do you get GOP is racist? So you think all republicans are racist? What a bold inaccurate statement.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 11:57 PM   #17
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I think he was being sarcastic. How do you get GOP is racist? So you think all republicans are racist? What a bold inaccurate statement.
Of course that's what he and every other leftist thinks. They drop the race card any time they can. I honestly wonder what "racism" would be if they didn't constantly beat that drum. Of course you'll have that nut job on both sides who spews hatred. But how about going on qualifications and not color. White guilt is the left's achilles.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 12:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
I think he was being sarcastic. How do you get GOP is racist? So you think all republicans are racist? What a bold inaccurate statement.
There are repubs who are actively racist and then those who are passively racist. In other words, they allow the racists free reign and don't oppose them iun the least. I don't see a lot of active opposition to racism from republicans and I think that is a more important measure of racism.

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Of course that's what he and every other leftist thinks. They drop the race card any time they can. I honestly wonder what "racism" would be if they didn't constantly beat that drum. Of course you'll have that nut job on both sides who spews hatred. But how about going on qualifications and not color. White guilt is the left's achilles.
So, you really believe that the effects of centuries of slavery and racism in this country have been erased completely and that all people of color have the same rights and opportunities as white folks? Would you care to provide some support for your stance, or is this just your opinion?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 01:10 AM   #19
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Centuries of slavery and racism in this country. *beats drum*
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 05:04 AM   #20
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I think there are plenty of bright low income students that can get into college just fine on their own.
I'm not sure that that is the case, it seems like there are still large effects of racism keeping minorities from getting the kind of education they need to get into good schools. California had banned consideration of race in admissions, and by 2006 UCLA only had 96 black students get in out of close to 5000 total. Here's an old article about it...
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 05:48 AM   #21
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I'm not sure that that is the case, it seems like there are still large effects of racism keeping minorities from getting the kind of education they need to get into good schools. California had banned consideration of race in admissions, and by 2006 UCLA only had 96 black students get in out of close to 5000 total. Here's an old article about it...
My main question after reading that is how many black students applied for admission? I'm assuming it was more than 96, but was it 200 or 2,000? That would be an interesting statistic to see.

Personally I don't see why questions about race are even present on college applications to begin with.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 06:16 AM   #22
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My main question after reading that is how many black students applied for admission? I'm assuming it was more than 96, but was it 200 or 2,000? That would be an interesting statistic to see.

Personally I don't see why questions about race are even present on college applications to begin with.
Would you agree that those of low socio-economic status should be advantaged?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 06:49 AM   #23
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Would you agree that those of low socio-economic status should be advantaged?
So long as their academics are up to snuff.....yes. I don't think colleges, especially larger institutions like UCLA and the like, should have to take on lesser students just to fill a quota. I would be in favor of some sort of program at community colleges that take less qualified students and try to give them the tools they need to get into one of the "better" schools.

The hurdle for low income students will always be trying to find a way to pay for tuition at a large university. Pell is there to an extent, but it doesn't come close to paying for everything. Trying to solve that problem, without the solution being handouts, is a problem that needs addressing.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 07:43 AM   #24
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So long as their academics are up to snuff.....yes. I don't think colleges, especially larger institutions like UCLA and the like, should have to take on lesser students just to fill a quota. I would be in favor of some sort of program at community colleges that take less qualified students and try to give them the tools they need to get into one of the "better" schools.

The hurdle for low income students will always be trying to find a way to pay for tuition at a large university. Pell is there to an extent, but it doesn't come close to paying for everything. Trying to solve that problem, without the solution being handouts, is a problem that needs addressing.
So you think access to college shouldn't take anything into account beyond grades?
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 07:51 AM   #25
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There are repubs who are actively racist and then those who are passively racist. In other words, they allow the racists free reign and don't oppose them iun the least. I don't see a lot of active opposition to racism from republicans and I think that is a more important measure of racism.
I agree, but there are plenty of liberals (sorry, I don't know my left from my right in politics) that are guilt of the same if not similar. Now again, I agree with you, but there are some folks that don't know that they aren't being race conscience. Or worse yet, don't think they should because being so would be racist.

On the contrary, being race conscience is perfectly fine and in many cases preferred.

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So, you really believe that the effects of centuries of slavery and racism in this country have been erased completely and that all people of color have the same rights and opportunities as white folks? Would you care to provide some support for your stance, or is this just your opinion?
Don't forget it's also about sexuality, gender, religion (or lack thereof), and economic status. We could take away all of these factors and we'd still be separating ourselves in smaller social groups. It's just human nature.

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Personally I don't see why questions about race are even present on college applications to begin with.
It has to be personally. When you don't have to worry about race . . . i.e. you're white, then it's not a big deal. But when you do it can be a burden or a blessing. Being white and going to an HBCU? Full ride guaranteed. Why? Affirmative action. Why does AA apply to white folks? Because blacks would get a full ride to a PWI. It does work both ways, and as we've already established, it goes far beyond race.

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Would you agree that those of low socio-economic status should be advantaged?
Yes, I would hope so, and I more than welcome it.

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So long as their academics are up to snuff.....yes. I don't think colleges, especially larger institutions like UCLA and the like, should have to take on lesser students just to fill a quota.
Good thing that they don't. We should all be happy that AA doesn't mean accepting lower qualified individuals over qualified individuals.

Is that really still believed amongst many folks? If it is, it's like people are saying that blacks, hispanics, asians, lesbians, gays, transgendered people, poor people, and old people just can't get into good schools. Or to keep it short, that you have to be a heterosexual white male between the ages of 18 and 45 to attend college or move ahead in the country.

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I would be in favor of some sort of program at community colleges that take less qualified students and try to give them the tools they need to get into one of the "better" schools.
That already exists, and it's even preferred by most college goers because they can get their general ed credits for a lot less money. Not just poor dumb folks that are under-qualified and failed at getting into UCLA.

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The hurdle for low income students will always be trying to find a way to pay for tuition at a large university. Pell is there to an extent, but it doesn't come close to paying for everything. Trying to solve that problem, without the solution being handouts, is a problem that needs addressing.
Because everything that's done for poor folks is a handout? I am not trying to be snarky, just curious to know what constitues a handout and what constitutes assistance, or an award. Do scholarships count as a handout? Would a scholarship for a low income inner-city kid with a 3.8 GPA count as a handout?
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