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Old Jun 24, 2013, 10:22 PM   #1
jknight8907
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Britain wants its guns back

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Old Jun 25, 2013, 02:12 AM   #2
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No, we really don't. That poll is populated by bored right-wingers who would probably vote 90% in favour of the reintroduction of the birch, capital punishment, transportation to the colonies and public execution.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 03:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by jknight8907 View Post

Sorry for my ignorance but keeping up on U.S. Federal, State, and local laws is a full time job.

Do you have something about guaranteed gun ownership in your Parliament Acts or other Papers?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 03:37 AM   #4
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No no no nononononononono!!!!!!!!!!! I do not want guns to come back! I cannot express this enough! I'd seriously conciser leaving this country if gun ownership regulations were loosened.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 05:26 AM   #5
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Sorry for my ignorance but keeping up on U.S. Federal, State, and local laws is a full time job.

Do you have something about guaranteed gun ownership in your Parliament Acts or other Papers?
No. Our law here is generally reactive and is formed in a response to events etc.

Self protection / security was never a legitimate reason to own guns here since 1966 and the original firearms acts. These were, I think a response to the increase in armed crime following the war.

However prior to Dunblane (1996) you could possibly own a handgun but under strict conditions (Firearm Certificate) and you had to prove a legitimate use. Legitimate use included target shooting and I think some vets might have had them as opposed to bolt guns for putting down large animals etc. Following Dunblane there was a blanket ban imposed on the private ownership of all handguns regardless. This never affected the use of guns by people for self defence as you couldn't get one for that anyway. I suspect any serious pressure for a relax on the ban comes from the fact that even the single shot .22 olympic style target pistols were banned as well but I don't think there's any real public desire to change it though. It won't happen. Target shooters don't have enough influence here.

Our firearms laws are reactive as opposed to being part of a philosophy or a larger political worldview - you're allowed to own things unless they're specifically restricted and that tends to happen following an atrocity etc. So, there's nothing to stop you buying say a crossbow (despite the fact they lethal and you're not allowed to hunt with one) as they're not generally used in crime etc. This attitude does seem to work quite well in allowing people some freedoms but prevents mass harm.

I do sometimes think that the police are becoming their own worst enemy in this sort of situation - their increasing use of body armour and military style clothing to counter the 'terrorist threat' and to send aggressive messages to well armed criminals will gradually make us feel less safe. (Even if we're actually safer?) and I suspect this might drive a desire to have more aggressive means of self defence among the general public.

Roadbloc - understand the sentiment but I'm not sure where you'd go, the only country with similar gun laws that I can think of would probably be Japan.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 06:37 AM   #6
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Thankfully there is no serious pressure in the UK to alter gun laws. Nothing like the NRA here, the issue isn't really discussed in the media, and I very rarely overhear people here saying we should have guns (in fact I am far, far more likely to hear people laughing at US gun-nuttiness).

This poll was small and probably suffered from interest bias - ie the very few people who are passionate about having guns in the UK bothered to vote, the majority who don't even think about the issue didn't.

The article makes it sound like a dramatic ban took place in 1996, but even before them very few people would have been able to own a hand gun. With the exception of certain shotgun classifications (which are still licensed and restricted) pretty much all firearms have been heavily restricted and very rare for decades. There are around 500,000 shot gun licences in the UK, and 125,000 firearms licences.

Hand gun laws are not going to be relaxed in the UK, and rightly so.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 06:49 AM   #7
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I like the current gun laws. If anything an all out ban would suit me. I do not see a need for firearms recreational or not in today's society.

However I do think police should be allowed to carry something more than CS spray and a stick.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 08:37 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by skunk View Post
No, we really don't. That poll is populated by bored right-wingers who would probably vote 90% in favour of the reintroduction of the birch, capital punishment, transportation to the colonies and public execution.
...depends which colony, anywhere in New Zealand, Vancouver and Montreal would be great.

More seriously, am I to understand that the Daily Telegraph is read by a similar crowd to the Daily Mail?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 09:08 AM   #9
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...depends which colony, anywhere in New Zealand, Vancouver and Montreal would be great.

More seriously, am I to understand that the Daily Telegraph is read by a similar crowd to the Daily Mail?
I don't know about that, but what does surprise me is just how many Daily Mail readers there are.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_circulation
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 09:17 AM   #10
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...depends which colony, anywhere in New Zealand, Vancouver and Montreal would be great.

More seriously, am I to understand that the Daily Telegraph is read by a similar crowd to the Daily Mail?
Nobody is quite as bad as Daily Mail readers (I use the term "readers" loosely) but Telegraph readers are still pretty ignorant/bigoted. I think of the Telegraph being to the Daily Mail what UKIP is to the BNP.

Unfortunately Happybunny's stats show just how stupid the plebs in the UK can be.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 09:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Gav2k View Post

However I do think police should be allowed to carry something more than CS spray and a stick.
No thanks.

They're already arrogant as it is with a stick. With a gun they'd feel invincible.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 09:32 AM   #12
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Just kidding!
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 09:58 AM   #13
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But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."
And yet over 20 thousand people are killed by guns each year in the States and not in self defense.

Gun Violence in the U.S., note that the page is being disputed.

Quote:
In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 66.9% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm.[5] Two-thirds of all gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides. In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicide deaths, and 11,078 firearm-related homicide deaths in the United States.[6]
Check out this GunPolicy.org which compares U.S. gun deaths to other countries. In the link example, I chose, United Kingdom, Germany, and Australia.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 12:16 PM   #14
Gav2k
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Originally Posted by rovex View Post
No thanks.

They're already arrogant as it is with a stick. With a gun they'd feel invincible.
I didn't say gun... I said something more than....

And please don't put many in the same pot as a few bad eggs!
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 01:21 PM   #15
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I didn't say gun... I said something more than....
What more is there to carry?

stun grenade?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 01:31 PM   #16
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Taser, or some form of non leathal gun would be ok
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 01:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovex View Post
No thanks.

They're already arrogant as it is with a stick. With a gun they'd feel invincible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gav2k View Post
I didn't say gun... I said something more than....

And please don't put many in the same pot as a few bad eggs!
I think that the British Police have all ready proved their capacity to cause problems and distress without firearms.

Smear campaigns against innocence people by undercover police agents. It's now no longer a case of a few bad apples, the whole system is rotten to it's core.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ju...cover-officers


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/409...smear-campaign


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...awrence-family

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/ja...d-activist-spy


http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/06...0649/citizens/


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...l-8669103.html


http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/06/510728.html
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 06:12 PM   #18
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I'm British and none of my friends, family or myself want guns. Hmm.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 08:37 PM   #19
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Who needs a gun when you have cricket bats and anti-stab knives? Though I doubt those are INGSOC approved either.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 08:44 PM   #20
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A quote from the posted link:

Quote:
While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 09:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
A quote from the posted link:
Not this one again.

I posted in another thread about this "study". That post can be found here: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=17257092&postcount=273


Here is a summary of its content ...
1. The Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy is a student-edited law review. It is not peer reviewed.

2. The publication has a stated conservative and libertarian political slant.

3. The "study" contains gross and obvious errors and cherry-picked data sources to substantiate the conclusion the authors wanted to find.

Other than that ...
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 09:12 PM   #22
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^^^snap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
A quote from the posted link
Instead of just posting them verbatin lets look where the quote came from (not surprisingly the article didn't provide references).

Quote:
A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy
The Journal, whilst sounding respectable, is actually a partisan source only publishing conservative and libertarian articles and opinion. Furthermore the authors of this paper were Don B. Kates, a lawyer with the conservative right wing think tank the Pacific Research Institute, and Gary Mauser, an associate of another right wing think tank, the Fraser Institute. One could perhaps question their objectivity.

Quote:
But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life.
Citation not provided. Because this data is incredibly poor.

Quote:
“where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."
A quote that is not supported by current data. If we use a source that isn't biased from Harvard;

Quote:
1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.


2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.


3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.


4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...uns-and-death/
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 10:46 PM   #23
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No they don't. OP's probably never left the country and therefore hasn't a clue of what they are on about.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 11:27 PM   #24
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Incredibly flawed methodology.

I voted (for a law to encourage the 'greening' of public spaces) ... and I'm not British.

Poll here.
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Old Jun 27, 2013, 03:10 AM   #25
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^^^snap


Instead of just posting them verbatin lets look where the quote came from (not surprisingly the article didn't provide references).


The Journal, whilst sounding respectable, is actually a partisan source only publishing conservative and libertarian articles and opinion. Furthermore the authors of this paper were Don B. Kates, a lawyer with the conservative right wing think tank the Pacific Research Institute, and Gary Mauser, an associate of another right wing think tank, the Fraser Institute. One could perhaps question their objectivity.


Citation not provided. Because this data is incredibly poor.


A quote that is not supported by current data. If we use a source that isn't biased from Harvard;



http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...uns-and-death/

For future reference could you give us a list of groups that you consider non-baised?
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