Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Special Interests > Visual Media > Design and Graphics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jun 27, 2013, 10:29 PM   #1
Votekinky06
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Logo Feedback

Sock it to me here, I've never used any kind of graphics design software up until yesterday. I decided to put together a rough draft so that when I went to a professional I would be able to give them an idea of what I was looking for without showing them the embarrassing sketch that I drew by hand. Now I'm thinking I may do it myself as I'm having a lot of fun with the process. The logos below are in order of progression. I really like the initial font, but when I put a phone number in there for dometags I realized that the numbers in that font are very hard to read, and I don't know what the odds are of finding a good font that doesn't clash, so I'm thinking I may need to change the font altogether. Any feedback is appreciated.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools1.png
Views:	40
Size:	40.5 KB
ID:	420346   Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools2.png
Views:	30
Size:	47.2 KB
ID:	420347   Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools4.png
Views:	27
Size:	68.3 KB
ID:	420348  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools5.png
Views:	32
Size:	71.4 KB
ID:	420349   Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools Dometag.png
Views:	27
Size:	64.7 KB
ID:	420350  
__________________
MR Challenge Part 2 Score: 1
Votekinky06 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 27, 2013, 11:43 PM   #2
12dylan34
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Votekinky06 View Post
Sock it to me here, I've never used any kind of graphics design software up until yesterday. I decided to put together a rough draft so that when I went to a professional I would be able to give them an idea of what I was looking for without showing them the embarrassing sketch that I drew by hand. Now I'm thinking I may do it myself as I'm having a lot of fun with the process. The logos below are in order of progression. I really like the initial font, but when I put a phone number in there for dometags I realized that the numbers in that font are very hard to read, and I don't know what the odds are of finding a good font that doesn't clash, so I'm thinking I may need to change the font altogether. Any feedback is appreciated.
All of them are far too complicated for what a professional logo should be. The first two aren't as bad, but just no on the last 3. I could definitely see these painted on the side of a van, but they would look amateur at best (and not to insult you at all; they look very good for your inexperience).

It's fine if it's just a sketch for a designer, but when you do hire the professional, be aware that he knows what he's doing, and will probably come back with something less busy. I urge you, as someone who's been in his perspective, to not try to force him to incorporate waves and sunglasses, and a beer glass or whatever that is into a single logo. (On closer inspection, I now realize that it's one of those spartan helmets, but a good logo shouldn't take so long to parse).

Also, the phone number shouldn't be part of the logo. It's fine to use a different font more legible for other text.

If I were you, I would show him these, but tell him that you're open to any other creative options that he feels would fit. Tell him the feel that you want, and I'm sure that he'll come back with something great. Remember that he's not just an intermediate between you and Photoshop/Illustrator, and he should have input on what makes a good logo.
12dylan34 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 28, 2013, 01:07 AM   #3
The Mad Kiwi
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In Hell
Keep it simple. Pools are blue, your logo should be blue. Try a smooth sans-serif font to represent the nice curves of a pool. Add some blue wavy lines. Done. Clean blue font represents clean blue water. Choatic black messy font = dirty untidy messy pool.
The Mad Kiwi is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 28, 2013, 11:41 AM   #4
Votekinky06
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12dylan34 View Post
All of them are far too complicated for what a professional logo should be. The first two aren't as bad, but just no on the last 3. I could definitely see these painted on the side of a van, but they would look amateur at best (and not to insult you at all; they look very good for your inexperience).

It's fine if it's just a sketch for a designer, but when you do hire the professional, be aware that he knows what he's doing, and will probably come back with something less busy. I urge you, as someone who's been in his perspective, to not try to force him to incorporate waves and sunglasses, and a beer glass or whatever that is into a single logo. (On closer inspection, I now realize that it's one of those spartan helmets, but a good logo shouldn't take so long to parse).

Also, the phone number shouldn't be part of the logo. It's fine to use a different font more legible for other text.

If I were you, I would show him these, but tell him that you're open to any other creative options that he feels would fit. Tell him the feel that you want, and I'm sure that he'll come back with something great. Remember that he's not just an intermediate between you and Photoshop/Illustrator, and he should have input on what makes a good logo.
Thanks for the feedback. I completely understand the concern of this being too busy, and personally like the first one best too. A couple of others have raised the concern of not being able to decipher the helmet, it looks like a spartan helmet to me, but it should since I'm the one that made it . The one with the phone number was just something I was toying with to put on stickers that we will be applying to the equipment we install. I just really don't have the eye for this stuff, hence the request for the much appreciated feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mad Kiwi View Post
Keep it simple. Pools are blue, your logo should be blue. Try a smooth sans-serif font to represent the nice curves of a pool. Add some blue wavy lines. Done. Clean blue font represents clean blue water. Choatic black messy font = dirty untidy messy pool.
I'm going to try this tonight, thanks for the feedback.
__________________
MR Challenge Part 2 Score: 1
Votekinky06 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 28, 2013, 12:53 PM   #5
chrfr
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Votekinky06 View Post
it looks like a spartan helmet to me...
I see beekeeper or airport firefighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Votekinky06 View Post
I just really don't have the eye for this stuff, hence the request for the much appreciated feedback.
This is why you're hiring a professional. Kudos to you for realizing that you're not an expert and that you're hiring someone who is. You don't need to bring a sketch to the designer, and you're probably better off not doing so. No professional wants a client telling him how to do his job, so let the designer use the expertise you've hired. Be ready to get rid of the sunglasses and waves. Everyone knows what a pool is, and what goes on at one, so there's no need to beat the viewer over the head with this sort of thing.
As for your sketches, the font isn't good: legibility is poor, and that's compounded by the all caps. Notice how the P and A in Spartan run together. Also, a splattered look like that is difficult to reproduce and even more difficult if you'll be getting vinyl signage cut to apply to a vehicle. The phone number in that typeface is entirely illegible so you definitely need to change that. The comments about the font looking messy are spot on.
chrfr is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 28, 2013, 01:49 PM   #6
Hankster
macrumors 68000
 
Hankster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Washington DC
Logos are simple and clean.

You have too many lines and it's not easy to read. It is also too busy. A logo is a very simplistic image that represents an entity. Tone down all the lines and make it very simple that you could easily draw it on paper in less than 20 seconds.

Also, use common fonts. Don't use fancy fonts, they do not work for business.
__________________

iMac - MacBook Air - iPhone - iPad - Shuffle - Nikon
Hankster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 28, 2013, 04:02 PM   #7
firedept
macrumors Demi-God
 
firedept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere!
Simplicity in a logo is key. Your first logo is the best but still to busy with the font you are using. I have been in printing industry for 38 years and can speak from experience that a simple logo is much more eye appealing. Also make any illustration you are using for the logo to be easily perceived.

I have also found over the years that some of the best designs are just 2 colours. This approach can also save you money down the road when you are looking at having it reproduced on different mediums.
__________________
Success only comes before work in the dictionary!
firedept is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 29, 2013, 10:24 AM   #8
Votekinky06
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Are these any better? Went for more simplicity/readability. Would you suggest the blue background behind "Spartan" or the white?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools12kel.png
Views:	14
Size:	49.2 KB
ID:	420570   Click image for larger version

Name:	Spartan Pools12.png
Views:	16
Size:	47.3 KB
ID:	420571  
__________________
MR Challenge Part 2 Score: 1
Votekinky06 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 29, 2013, 06:18 PM   #9
firedept
macrumors Demi-God
 
firedept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere!
I like the second one. Good to see you moved the Spartan Helmet down. Much more recognizable now. Both look good though. I only say the second one due to the fact a lot of inks used to print with are fairly transparent. Should you pick a medium that is colored it will change your blue. With it only in the glasses it will be less noticeable. Should you only be printing on a white colored medium, then either logo will look good. One suggestion though, smooth out your font. If the program you are using can not do that, then get whoever does your printing to do it for you. It is a simple logo that will be cheap to reproduce. Good job.
__________________
Success only comes before work in the dictionary!
firedept is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 30, 2013, 09:07 AM   #10
Votekinky06
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by firedept View Post
I like the second one. Good to see you moved the Spartan Helmet down. Much more recognizable now. Both look good though. I only say the second one due to the fact a lot of inks used to print with are fairly transparent. Should you pick a medium that is colored it will change your blue. With it only in the glasses it will be less noticeable. Should you only be printing on a white colored medium, then either logo will look good. One suggestion though, smooth out your font. If the program you are using can not do that, then get whoever does your printing to do it for you. It is a simple logo that will be cheap to reproduce. Good job.
Thanks for the feedback. I like the white background better. I can't find an option or tool for smoothing text in my software so I'll have to see if the person doing the printing can do that for me.
__________________
MR Challenge Part 2 Score: 1
Votekinky06 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jun 30, 2013, 03:39 PM   #11
firedept
macrumors Demi-God
 
firedept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere!
Whoever does the printing will most likely do it in Illustrator. That is what we mostly use at our shop. They will create an EPS of your logo and then you will be able to use it on anything you please. Welcome!
__________________
Success only comes before work in the dictionary!
firedept is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2, 2013, 03:02 PM   #12
Hankster
macrumors 68000
 
Hankster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Washington DC
The last image you posted (right one) is best, but I would still remove all the lines above the helmet. It's too messy. Make them straight solid lines or just remove them all together. Honestly, I can barely tell it's a "spartan" helmet. I did graphic design and printing professionally for six years, simple is always best.
__________________

iMac - MacBook Air - iPhone - iPad - Shuffle - Nikon
Hankster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2, 2013, 03:16 PM   #13
tobefirst
macrumors 68030
 
tobefirst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Is there still time to change the name? I'm not sold on that, yet, let alone any of the logos. If you're going to stick with Spartan Pools, you need to drastically simplify the logo, as Hankster said.
  • Do not put a bounding box around your logo, regardless of its color.
  • It's now *starting* to look like a helmet, but it needs to be simpler, more iconic. Perhaps a profile view of the helmet might be the way to go?
  • The sunglasses aren't necessary. Not only do they not add anything, but they actually make the helmet's recognizability decrease.

Design is a tough thing to get right. Keep working at it.
__________________
soupmagazine.net
graphic design portfolio
tobefirst is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2, 2013, 07:15 PM   #14
ezekielrage_99
macrumors 68040
 
ezekielrage_99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tobefirst View Post
Is there still time to change the name? I'm not sold on that, yet, let alone any of the logos. If you're going to stick with Spartan Pools, you need to drastically simplify the logo, as Hankster said.
  • Do not put a bounding box around your logo, regardless of its color.
  • It's now *starting* to look like a helmet, but it needs to be simpler, more iconic. Perhaps a profile view of the helmet might be the way to go?
  • The sunglasses aren't necessary. Not only do they not add anything, but they actually make the helmet's recognizability decrease.

Design is a tough thing to get right. Keep working at it.
+1

I'd also try some different type, the logotype doesn't feel right and I believe where the issue for the design is due to the chosen font. There's a disconnect between the subject matter and how it reads, which makes it hard to read and hard to match styles to when it comes time to design letterheads, business cards and web sites.

Where I would suggest a more stylised helm and working on the type from a kerning perspective, this will improve no end.

Also here's a few links I think you make give a little inspiration and design refinements for what you're trying to achieve.

10 Rules for Logo Design.
Smashing Tutorials for Logo Design - Oldie but a goldie
5 Useful Tips
Smashing Logo - Common Mistakes
Logopond
__________________
"There is a world elsewhere" - Coriolanus
ezekielrage_99 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2, 2013, 07:59 PM   #15
808?
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hong Kong
A very rough quick one.

808? is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2, 2013, 08:45 PM   #16
Votekinky06
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezekielrage_99 View Post
+1

I'd also try some different type, the logotype doesn't feel right and I believe where the issue for the design is due to the chosen font. There's a disconnect between the subject matter and how it reads, which makes it hard to read and hard to match styles to when it comes time to design letterheads, business cards and web sites.

Where I would suggest a more stylised helm and working on the type from a kerning perspective, this will improve no end.

Also here's a few links I think you make give a little inspiration and design refinements for what you're trying to achieve.

10 Rules for Logo Design.
Smashing Tutorials for Logo Design - Oldie but a goldie
5 Useful Tips
Smashing Logo - Common Mistakes
Logopond
Thanks for the reading material, will be checking all of these out tonight! We've enlisted the help of a professional and he's steering us in the right direction, very consistent with the feedback you all have provided. I'm still really enjoying playing around with this, it's a fascinating process that I never really appreciated because you don't really think about it, you just like or identify with logos and don't think about their creation. Very fun work for sure, but I won't quit my day job, I'll have fun with it and leave the serious work to the pros

Quote:
Originally Posted by 808? View Post
A very rough quick one.

Image
I really like this font! The font is actually what we're trying to figure out right now. My brother and I have been staring at different fonts all day, but I'm really liking this one.
__________________
MR Challenge Part 2 Score: 1
Votekinky06 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 2, 2013, 08:51 PM   #17
808?
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hong Kong
The font is Herculanum.

I used Pages to whip this up in about 3 minutes.

If you are using Pages I can post the file here if you like.
808? is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 01:21 PM   #18
Parkin Pig
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Yorkshire, the starting grid of the 2014 Tour de France
tobefirst hit the nail on the head with his points of ditching the sunglasses and using a simplified profile of the helmet.

Following on from 808?'s design, I've added a couple of aqua waves and used Lithos Pro for the font.

Again, tobefirst had a good point about the name - is it set in stone?
The helmet would indicate that the use of the word 'Spartan' is used in a Spartan warrior context, but the dictionary also defines spartan as 'showing lack of interest or sympathy to comfort or luxury' - probably not the message you want to associate with a luxury item like a swimming pool. It's always worth a few minutes research into the derivation of words when choosing a company name.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SP1.jpg
Views:	11
Size:	190.3 KB
ID:	421221  
Parkin Pig is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 02:44 PM   #19
vigorblade
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New York, NY
"Logo Design is sooo Easy"

One of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the art of professional logo design is that it is so easy to do, that it is not worth paying a "Professional" to do. They see the final results and that's all they see is the results, so they often assume it was conceptualized and completed in 5 minutes.

The general public just do not fully respect what a professional designer does and can do. I remember one time being in a taxi and the driver asked me what I do for a living and I said "I am a graphic designer, so I design things like logos...", as soon as he heard logos, he immediately says "Oh, logo design, that's easy, I did that before, it's so easy". I think I just laughed and thought to myself "If they really knew, what it really takes to do this stuff"

I can sometimes see from their perspective of how designing logos could appear easy, especially when a final logo can be so simple. What they don't understand is the time and dedication it can take to achieve such simplicity in good design. Achieving simplicity in good design is not simple.

It's actually good that you have gone through this process of attempting to design your own logo and then going that next step of seeking honest feedback from people who actually do this stuff for a living and not just your cousin John
(You know John doesn't know anything about good design and will say everything you do looks nice). As others have mentioned, seek out a professional who's work you like and let him know a bit about your company, the name of your company, possible the type of logo that you absolutely do not like and let him/her do what they do best in designing your logo. Be open to the designer's ideas. Also, absolutely do not show them your ideas (when a client gives me a logo design project along with their sketch, I automatically know that they are putting me in a box and constraining me creatively).

Good Luck.
vigorblade is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 06:49 PM   #20
ezekielrage_99
macrumors 68040
 
ezekielrage_99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigorblade View Post
One of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the art of professional logo design is that it is so easy to do, that it is not worth paying a "Professional" to do. They see the final results and that's all they see is the results, so they often assume it was conceptualized and completed in 5 minutes.
Very well put, I couldn't have said it better

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigorblade View Post
The general public just do not fully respect what a professional designer does and can do. I remember one time being in a taxi and the driver asked me what I do for a living and I said "I am a graphic designer, so I design things like logos...", as soon as he heard logos, he immediately says "Oh, logo design, that's easy, I did that before, it's so easy". I think I just laughed and thought to myself "If they really knew, what it really takes to do this stuff"
It's like that with design though education is the key, I was told by a head of marketing a few months back "I can't understand how making a 30 second 3d segment would take more than 2 hours?".

It's just not design, it's any industry people don't understand they consider it to be easy they expect it to be easy. Working with a legal business, I was designing UX and UI for an up and coming iPad and was told by many a lawyer that being a designer was the easiest degree route, basically qualifications for 4 years of drawing

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigorblade View Post
I can sometimes see from their perspective of how designing logos could appear easy, especially when a final logo can be so simple. What they don't understand is the time and dedication it can take to achieve such simplicity in good design. Achieving simplicity in good design is not simple.
One thing a very good professional friend told me "Good professionals make it look easy, the curse being people consider it to be easy." And this is not just unique to design.
__________________
"There is a world elsewhere" - Coriolanus
ezekielrage_99 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 23, 2013, 05:03 PM   #21
joewillmott
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: England
I am pretty high right now, but simple block background colour with negative design and clean fonts are what I enjoy right now. They're not good, but I whipped up these simplistic ideas:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	spartan01.png
Views:	5
Size:	44.5 KB
ID:	424428   Click image for larger version

Name:	spartan02.png
Views:	7
Size:	15.4 KB
ID:	424429   Click image for larger version

Name:	spartan03.png
Views:	7
Size:	14.2 KB
ID:	424430  

Click image for larger version

Name:	spartan04.png
Views:	10
Size:	9.8 KB
ID:	424438  
__________________
13" MBA i5/8GB/128GB || iPad rMini || iPhone 5 || iPod Touch 4G

I make apps and games and stuff: JoeWillmott.com

Last edited by joewillmott; Jul 23, 2013 at 06:27 PM.
joewillmott is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 2, 2014, 02:09 PM   #22
24hrpizza
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by joewillmott View Post
I am pretty high right now, but simple block background colour with negative design and clean fonts are what I enjoy right now. They're not good, but I whipped up these simplistic ideas:
These look good dude for quick turnaround.
24hrpizza is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 28, 2014, 11:33 AM   #23
macaddiict
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: OKC & Lubbock, TX
Send a message via AIM to macaddiict
Have you ever heard of http://www.bamagazine.com ?

I'm not a spammer -- your logo work just reminded me of myself a few years back when I was just getting started, and I found Before & After magazine to be an awesome source of helpful design tips for projects like these.

Perhaps a better one if you aren't going into graphic design would be this: The Non Designers Design Book ... a fantastic read ... http://www.amazon.com/The-Non-Design.../dp/0321534042

The book is a really quick and interesting read. It takes about an hour to breeze through (lots of illustrated examples of good and bad design) and you'll know the majority of what a person needs to know to make good design choices for ads, logos, letters, etc. Every business owner should read it, IMHO!

(If you're in a rush, the book is available at most bookstores. It is pretty popular.)

---

For feedback on your logo that you uploaded, I don't know what the "thing" is that is above the word 'pools.'

The idea of the sunglasses is pretty rad, though! I think that could make a really good logo.
macaddiict is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 29, 2014, 01:09 AM   #24
schopaia
macrumors newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigorblade View Post
One of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the art of professional logo design is that it is so easy to do, that it is not worth paying a "Professional" to do. They see the final results and that's all they see is the results, so they often assume it was conceptualized and completed in 5 minutes.

The general public just do not fully respect what a professional designer does and can do. I remember one time being in a taxi and the driver asked me what I do for a living and I said "I am a graphic designer, so I design things like logos...", as soon as he heard logos, he immediately says "Oh, logo design, that's easy, I did that before, it's so easy". I think I just laughed and thought to myself "If they really knew, what it really takes to do this stuff"

I can sometimes see from their perspective of how designing logos could appear easy, especially when a final logo can be so simple. What they don't understand is the time and dedication it can take to achieve such simplicity in good design. Achieving simplicity in good design is not simple.

It's actually good that you have gone through this process of attempting to design your own logo and then going that next step of seeking honest feedback from people who actually do this stuff for a living and not just your cousin John
(You know John doesn't know anything about good design and will say everything you do looks nice). As others have mentioned, seek out a professional who's work you like and let him know a bit about your company, the name of your company, possible the type of logo that you absolutely do not like and let him/her do what they do best in designing your logo. Be open to the designer's ideas. Also, absolutely do not show them your ideas (when a client gives me a logo design project along with their sketch, I automatically know that they are putting me in a box and constraining me creatively).

Good Luck.
All good advice. I hope our "bro" joewillmott is not to high to absorb it. I always find it strange how people in these forums so readily "whip up" designs for the OP's. There's really nothing to be learned from that - their time would be much better spent with a book (or 2). Grid Systems and Interaction of Color (Albers) would be a good start.
schopaia is offline   1 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > Special Interests > Visual Media > Design and Graphics

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sports Logo Quiz! - An actually nice looking logo game. GoldenJoe iPhone and iPod touch Apps 1 May 28, 2013 11:51 AM
A Extremely powerful and convenient logo search app “Logo.”! ruiruirui971 iPhone and iPod touch Apps 0 Mar 10, 2013 01:30 AM
Need feedback on our first app. Ads, Logo, themes, etc.? jponticello iPhone Tips, Help and Troubleshooting 0 Jul 16, 2012 10:10 PM
iPhone 4S stuck on Apple Logo, rapid repeating of logo CRip4s Jailbreaks and iOS Hacks 7 Jun 23, 2012 02:31 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:58 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC