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Old Jul 3, 2013, 03:54 AM   #1
Andeavor
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What exaclty makes one decide what's right for others?

I mean, who cares who your neighbor sleeps with or who gets married for what reason, as long as *you* aren't forced to do it yourself. There are a number of people *I* wish wouldn't reproduce or get married (for the wrong reasons) but I can't do anything about it because I have no right to decide for them, so why do they get the right to decide for me?

Where does this privilege to control other people's lives come from?

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I grew up and live by respecting the needs and desires of other people just as I expect the same in return. As long as they don't hurt others in the process they're good in my book, and holding them back because I don't like some of their practices is out of my control.

There are enough rich people that lie and cheat their way to more fortune, straight people with sinful secret lives that want gay people gone and religious people who think their antiquated way of life has to be applied to the rest of the world. What makes *them* think what they do is right and everybody else can suck it (for the lack of a better term)?

Maybe I already know the answers but I'm still curious to hear both sides, so even the conservative or religious posters (who'd rather I marry a woman and have a dozen children) can leave their thoughts. I won't flame or bitch and I encourage others to keep their cool as well!!! I just want to know the where, the why and the how.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 04:02 AM   #2
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Welcome to social anarchism..

This path will lead to some interesting conclusions as you follow it.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 04:14 AM   #3
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I feel like there's a song that poses that exact question, but I can't think of it. Something along the lines of "and how can a man decide what's right for someone else's life?"
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 04:42 AM   #4
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I am not religious, nor do I try to interfere in others' lives. However, social control is usually exerted when people believe there is some form of common threat. Thus, freedoms are not absolute, for they stop when they encroach on the freedoms of others. The question is what unalienable freedoms are and the conditions under which those freedoms encroach on others. Increasingly I see 'the right' as shifting from their traditional role limiting government intrusion into people's lives to a role in which they myopically use their moral system to define the limits of freedom.

Both the US (of which I am a citizen) and the UK (of which I am a resident) have enacted laws that limit freedom that would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago. For instance, since my arrival in the UK 20 years ago, laws have been passed that limit peaceful assembly; freedom from double jeopardy has been abolished; detention without trial for long periods has been instituted; regulation of the press has been proposed; and government monitoring of electronic communication has been made routine.

Jefferson said that "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." We're not being vigilant enough.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 06:35 AM   #5
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Personally, I think a lot of this control is due to overly-dominant people seeing the natural fears in others. Instead of helping people overcome their fear, they exploit it thus gaining control of others.

I don't see this a privilege or a right but some people gaining power and wanting more of it.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 06:48 AM   #6
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Reactions like the control you mention are fear based.

If those individuals could apply some Non-Violent Communication to their lives, the world would be a much better place!
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 07:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
.... detention without trial for long periods has been instituted....
Sadly, while it may not be an intentional thing in the states, many judiciary systems in the country practice this, especially with young offenders charged with misdemeanor crimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
Instead of helping people overcome their fear, they exploit it thus gaining control of others.

I don't see this a privilege or a right but some people gaining power and wanting more of it.
I actually think that it comes from people thinking they are actually helping people. Also I must mention that "supremacy" is something that is instilled in a generation/people. When you live your life seeing and hearing and, not always directly being told that "this" is what you want to be or that "this person" is who you want to emulate or that "this" culture is better then it's easy to get sucked into an idea that the "THIS" is what's right.

So when others don't fall into the "THIS" you try to convince them why it's the way to go. When they don't want to or they try to challenge it and you forcefully put them down you then become the oppressor.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 07:46 AM   #8
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I'd respond here for real but I already know what's going to happen.

1. People are going to twist my words & meaning and claim in implying things I didn't imply.

2. There's the "never say anything about gays" crowd where if you have an opinion about homosexuality that isn't "they're great!" they bash you. This group usually screams how "open minded" they are, yet they don't accept any views aside from their own. Ironically they're just as closed minded

3. Someone (usually one of the #2 crowds) is going to bring religion into it, despite the fact that no one is talking religion.

4. It's always one idiot that tries to compare being gay to being black or any other ethnicity. Terrible comparison for a few reasons.


So with that said, I already know the outcome so I'll just watch this one from the sidelines and call the shots!
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 09:28 AM   #9
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Similar to thehustleman above me, I'd like to explain my stance on certain social issues. But I have enough experience on these forums to know how that is probably going to end up, and I don't have the time or energy to re-address the same tired arguments that are always thrown about (which thehustleman nicely outlined) so I'll just sit here and watch until I see how this one is going.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 09:43 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
I'd respond here for real but I already know what's going to happen.
&
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Originally Posted by SLC Flyfishing View Post
Similar to thehustleman above me, I'd like to explain my stance on certain social issues.
Hi guys, welcome to the PRSI!

As to the OP, there was a thread a few months back asking the same kind of question within a different framework.

Basically my participation there was to say that society tries to balance the ideal of personal freedom vs the responsibility to exercise that freedom in a manner in which does not impede on the freedom of others to act.

Much of that can be applied here.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:09 AM   #11
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Basically it all boils down to hate and ignorance in my experience.

For example, a good amount of people I know are against gay marriage. Those individuals are really quite ignorant (and downright stupid) to think that being gay is a choice.

The think that just because THEY think its a choice that they have that right to impose restrictions on gay peoples lives even though those gay people are tax paying citizens too and deserve every bit of equal rights.

It's very ironic because these same people cry foul and say their rights are being violated because they're not allowed to oppress and belittle others without social backlash.

The same thing happens with race. In the 50's you saw people making the same stupid arguments against interracial marriage.

But yes OP, I agree people for some reason think they're entitled to rule someone elses life. We all only get one life to live, as long as your not hurting anyone no one should have to be oppressed by someone elses beliefs.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:09 AM   #12
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As I said in the OP, I don't want this to become a flame war, simply state your point of view. I myself have no energy or interest in a great debate or hurling insults at each other, I'm just curious to see your point of view, and why.

I know my truth but I'm open to see what other truths are out there.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
Basically it all boils down to hate and ignorance in my experience.

Those individuals are really quite ignorant (and downright stupid)

It's very ironic because these same people cry foul and say their rights are being violated...

The same thing happens with race. In the 50's you saw people making the same stupid arguments
Exhibit A

I've got no time for people who can't make a point without mischaracterizing another's views, and engaging in personal attacks. Which in topics like this, amounts to a majority of this forum's participants.

If interested I can PM you my views sometime.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:24 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by SLC Flyfishing View Post
Exhibit A

I've got no time for people who can't make a point without mischaracterizing another's views, and engaging in personal attacks. Which in topics like this, amounts to a majority of this forum's participants.

If interested I can PM you my views sometime.
There's no mischaracterizing going on. If people are against equal rights for gays/blacks/jews/whatever there is simply no other excuse than hate.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:25 AM   #15
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That's his point of view - maybe not a nice one but let him vent his own frustrations. You can have your say and we may not like it, but that is the whole point of sharing thoughts and ideas.

I'm not seeking to debate the rights or wrongs here, I just want to be an iota smarter about people who think different than I do, giving me reasons other than compassion or common sense. If there's anything I learned in therapy as a teenager is, as long as you know where the other person is coming from, the issue is half-solved. (I couldn't change those people in the past, but at least I know how to deal with them today. Though, not always.)

If you're still afraid of unnecessary backlash (watch it, chrono1081!) feel free to PM me instead.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:25 AM   #16
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if you have an opinion about homosexuality that isn't "they're great!" they bash you.
Because, you know, all those gays are totally homogenous, one gay person is just like the next one
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:32 AM   #17
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That's his point of view - maybe not a nice one but let him vent his own frustrations. You can have your say and we may not like it, but that is the whole point of sharing thoughts and ideas.

I'm not seeking to debate the rights or wrongs here, I just want to be an iota smarter about people who think different than I do, giving me reasons other than compassion or common sense. If there's anything I learned in therapy as a teenager is, as long as you know where the other person is coming from, the issue is half-solved. (I couldn't change those people in the past, but at least I know how to deal with them today. Though, not always.)

If you're still afraid of unnecessary backlash (watch it, chrono1081!) feel free to PM me instead.
You asked my views so I gave them. My personal experience is as stated:

1. Hate. (For some reason, many people hate what is different from them, this goes for gender, race, sexuality, etc).

2. Ignorance. (People thinking that gay is a "lifestyle choice" when its absolutely not.)

3. Bigotry. (People feeling that people shouldn't impede on their rights and beliefs even though they have no problem impeding on the rights and beliefs of others).

Sure it comes off as not nice but in my experience there is nothing nice about discrimination and everyone who I know who has an issue with gays or race (I live in PA so I know a lot of them) falls into one of the three above categories. I haven't had a single person prove me wrong yet.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 10:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Andeavor View Post
I mean, who cares who your neighbor sleeps with or who gets married for what reason, as long as *you* aren't forced to do it yourself. There are a number of people *I* wish wouldn't reproduce or get married (for the wrong reasons) but I can't do anything about it because I have no right to decide for them, so why do they get the right to decide for me?

Where does this privilege to control other people's lives come from?

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I grew up and live by respecting the needs and desires of other people just as I expect the same in return. As long as they don't hurt others in the process they're good in my book, and holding them back because I don't like some of their practices is out of my control.

There are enough rich people that lie and cheat their way to more fortune, straight people with sinful secret lives that want gay people gone and religious people who think their antiquated way of life has to be applied to the rest of the world. What makes *them* think what they do is right and everybody else can suck it (for the lack of a better term)?

Maybe I already know the answers but I'm still curious to hear both sides, so even the conservative or religious posters (who'd rather I marry a woman and have a dozen children) can leave their thoughts. I won't flame or bitch and I encourage others to keep their cool as well!!! I just want to know the where, the why and the how.
Leaving out the obvious politics, religion, and social upbringing .......... which IMO account for a large percentage of the reason.

I'll say the territorial instinct us humans possess has another huge role in this. Think about when someone states "I don't care what they do, as long as it's not done in my home". Now understand most people don't just consider their home being just within their personal living space, many consider their community, city, state, and country just as much as home as their specific address. Now some tend to want to set their own personal rules in their community, city, state and country as we all do inside our personal living space. It's easy to say "don't do x, y, and z in my home or yard" cause it's your private property, but people want to extend that towards what they feel is their territory whether public or private. Which is why when some don't like gays, they feel as if it shouldn't be allowed on what they believe is their territory. Unfortunately many can't seem to control that dominate territorial urge, and don't take other differ minded people into consideration.

I personal think like you and don't give a damn about other people's lifestyles.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 11:00 AM   #19
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Sure it comes off as not nice but in my experience there is nothing nice about discrimination and everyone who I know who has an issue with gays or race (I live in PA so I know a lot of them) falls into one of the three above categories. I haven't had a single person prove me wrong yet.
Agreed, especially about PA. But having lived in southern PA for quite some time I can safely say that many of them see themselves has trying to be tolerant, and trying to be inclusive.

There is a difference between supremacy: "I am better than you are and you should be like me . . . . let me help you with that."

And bigotry: "I hate you because you are different."

In America, on both sides, we get more of the former.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 11:17 AM   #20
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Well in respect for the OP's wishes I said my piece so I won't say anymore with regards to my personal experiences.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 11:23 AM   #21
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I think some folks have a hard time adapting.

You know, they've got their worldview all nicely set-up and then along comes this anomaly. (Not really an "anomaly", per-se, just something that wasn't around when their original world-view was solidified.)

Rather than rejig their worldview, it's easier just to reject the anomaly. Plus, if you do the rejection thing as a group activity, it creates a sense of kinship. And who doesn't want to belong?
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 11:36 AM   #22
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first, you have to separate morality from legality. the latter would include laws that are designed for the common good. although, i may not agree with all laws, i don't have a problem with elected officials creating them.

on the other hand, morality is a different animal. for me personally, as long as you are not hurting or endangering anyone, i don't pass judgement. people have affairs, stuff happens.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 11:45 AM   #23
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I've already seen example #2 so far...
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 12:27 PM   #24
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first, you have to separate morality from legality. the latter would include laws that are designed for the common good. although, i may not agree with all laws, i don't have a problem with elected officials creating them.

on the other hand, morality is a different animal. for me personally, as long as you are not hurting or endangering anyone, i don't pass judgement. people have affairs, stuff happens.
But many people seem to connect the two, especially when it comes to laws of the socio-economic nature. They let their morals direct their thought-process on establishing laws and thus infringe on the freedoms of those that do not abide the same moral compass. In a way, it's nearly impossible to separate them as we humans always reach back to our moral ideals, even when re-evaluating our world view.

In a way, I've had my world view changed quite a bit, not because I was rigged into a narrow-minded view but because I was naive not to realize that my view is just one of a billion, and there is so much stuff out there that we may not agree with but we shouldn't let anyone or any group have the power to dictate what is right or wrong, even if there's no negative repercussions thereof.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
I've already seen example #2 so far...
What did you expect him to say? Gays have gone through an emotional rollercoaster in the past few decades that many heteros just never will experience, so instead of feeling attacked before voicing your opinion take in consideration that a viewpoint can go down the wrong ear and one of us will lash out.

As I said, I'd love to have you or anyone else share their view and thoughts - even if they clash with mine - in order to get a better understanding of how (western) society in the 21st century works.
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Old Jul 3, 2013, 12:33 PM   #25
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I've already seen example #2 so far...
So instead of helping move the conversation along, you're just going to jump in every few post to say I told you so. That's so much more helpful.



People feel the need to tell others how to live because they can't bear to be wrong. If I make a choice to do A but you choose B, I'm going to think maybe I made the wrong choice. If I can get everybody to do A, then I will feel better about myself.
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