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Old Jul 27, 2013, 07:43 AM   #1
icanhazapple
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2013 Mac Pro Price (Range?)

Was wondering if anyone else thought (hoped?) that Apple might have showed off the highest end Mac Pro when the new model was initially introduced, and that there might be a single socket CPU/GPU model available. Anyone hear any rumors of that being the case?

$3000 USD and below is my (already very stretched) budget. I just can't do $4-5K, and I can't help but feel that besides the fact that this is a 'Pro' machine, $4-5K just puts it out of reach for quite a few people.

I don't want a retina MBP, I'm happy with my 2012 MBA, and patient enough to wait until Apple introduces retina into the Air lineup in 2-3 years time. I'm an iOS software developer who wants a desktop machine from Apple with a dedicated GPU and no screen. Will that really run me more than $3K?
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 08:13 AM   #2
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It sounds to me like you might be well served with an iMac?

Pricing is going to be interesting and is something that everyone is waiting for. My guess is that it will be priced higher than what many are hoping for.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 09:45 AM   #3
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It sounds to me like you might be well served with an iMac?

Pricing is going to be interesting and is something that everyone is waiting for. My guess is that it will be priced higher than what many are hoping for.
A new Haswell iMac would be just fine with me if the new Mac Pro is financially out of reach. I would use my current 2011 iMac as a sample library server and get an inexpensive USB 3 JOBD box.

I could always later move to a refurbished or used Mac Pro and probably keep an iMac for my display and maybe put the JBOD box drives in a affordable TB box.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 11:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by icanhazapple View Post
Was wondering if anyone else thought (hoped?) that Apple might have showed off the highest end Mac Pro when the new model was initially introduced, and that there might be a single socket CPU/GPU model available. Anyone hear any rumors of that being the case?

$3000 USD and below is my (already very stretched) budget. I just can't do $4-5K, and I can't help but feel that besides the fact that this is a 'Pro' machine, $4-5K just puts it out of reach for quite a few people.

I don't want a retina MBP, I'm happy with my 2012 MBA, and patient enough to wait until Apple introduces retina into the Air lineup in 2-3 years time. I'm an iOS software developer who wants a desktop machine from Apple with a dedicated GPU and no screen. Will that really run me more than $3K?
It looks like all models will be 1 CPU and two GPUs. The details we have offer no indication of anything else.

We don't know if they will price it like a workstation with two FirePros, or a workstation with two Radeon cards. We don't know if they will offer a 4-core CPU or which model of graphics cards they will use. We also don't know exactly who this is marketed at. If it's "industry users" then it could be $3,500+, but consider the Mac Pro has had a base model price of $2,499 for nearly every model and although they are using two GPUs they have cut costs considerably in the production of this new model.

Just going to have to wait.

Last edited by Umbongo; Jul 27, 2013 at 11:17 AM.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 11:39 AM   #5
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It will be interesting to see how the MP is priced compared to a maxed out iMac.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 11:44 AM   #6
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If they keep the MP base price at $2499, I'm in. Higher and I think sales fall off proportionately. There are always those few willing to pay 3-4K for these sort of computers. I am not one of them...

I also hope that "Pro" level RAM and storage are built-in to the price point and we don't have to ante-up to configure the box to match the "Pro" sticker.

Last edited by SeattleMoose; Jul 27, 2013 at 11:54 AM.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 12:02 PM   #7
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I too believe prices will start from $2500 for the base bare-minimum model but I think it could get insanely expensive since there will be almost no user serviceable parts. Imagination runs wild when I think how much Apple charges for RAM. In the case of CPU and GPU I believe each upgrade will be at least $1000 over the base model.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 12:11 PM   #8
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I
I also hope that "Pro" level RAM and storage are built-in to the price point and we don't have to ante-up to configure the box to match the "Pro" sticker.
That is very ambiguous as there is no such think as a "Pro" level of RAM and storage. What is completely acceptable for one Pro user is not at all acceptable for another Pro user could be complete overkill for yet a third Pro user. The idea of driving up the cost for all be including components that may not be needed is foolish. Especially when Apple components have been historically overpriced.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 12:20 PM   #9
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That is very ambiguous as there is no such think as a "Pro" level of RAM and storage...
If he's referring to ECC RAM then I'd agree with him. (you need a motherboard with ECC support and a workstation class CPU to go with it). "Desktop RAM" isn't meant for mission critical environments whereas ECC memory is, hence the memory correction capability.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 12:53 PM   #10
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If he's referring to ECC RAM then I'd agree with him. (you need a motherboard with ECC support and a workstation class CPU to go with it). "Desktop RAM" isn't meant for mission critical environments whereas ECC memory is, hence the memory correction capability.
It was pretty obvious he was talking about capacity and not error correction. Apple even specifically says that the new Mac Pro comes with ECC memory.

Mac Pro = Workstation Computer
Mac Pro ≠ Desktop Computer

Last edited by brand; Jul 27, 2013 at 01:04 PM.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 03:36 PM   #11
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Interesting marketing pitch to label capacity as Pro...
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 04:24 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by icanhazapple View Post
Was wondering if anyone else thought (hoped?) that Apple might have showed off the highest end Mac Pro when the new model was initially introduced, and that there might be a single socket CPU/GPU model available. Anyone hear any rumors of that being the case?

$3000 USD and below is my (already very stretched) budget. I just can't do $4-5K, and I can't help but feel that besides the fact that this is a 'Pro' machine, $4-5K just puts it out of reach for quite a few people.

I don't want a retina MBP, I'm happy with my 2012 MBA, and patient enough to wait until Apple introduces retina into the Air lineup in 2-3 years time. I'm an iOS software developer who wants a desktop machine from Apple with a dedicated GPU and no screen. Will that really run me more than $3K?
I am not a "pro" by any stretch of the imagination, but an iMac simply won't cut it for my hobby (CG art).

From my perspective, whatever the cost, it will need to be at least $1,500 cheaper than a comparable Dell. Which will be a problem, because the Dells go to 16 cores - today - whereas the iCan will top out at 12.

The new form factor means I'll need to spend at least $1,100 on external enclosures to hold my internal hard drives (4x3.5" & 2x2.5"). For my firewire & usb devices, I'll need an external TB docking station ($300) and a 4 port powered USB hub ($50) for:

1. iPhone,
2. iPad,
3. iPod,
4. 2 external USB hard drives
5. 1 4 bay esata/firewire 800 raid box
6. keyboard,
7. mouse (yes, I have an Apple wireless keyboard and mouse - which is why I am back to wired versions.),
8. camera,
9. thumb drives,
10. scanner
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 06:06 PM   #13
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From my perspective, whatever the cost, it will need to be at least $1,500 cheaper than a comparable Dell.
If its comparable hardware one would expect the price to be comparable so I doubt that it will be $1500 cheaper. Apple is not saving any money by not having empty internal storage bays or PCIe bays. Yes I realize that there is no room for internal expandability and that does drive up the cost for external peripherals but those are the breaks.
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 06:22 PM   #14
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That is very ambiguous as there is no such think as a "Pro" level of RAM and storage. What is completely acceptable for one Pro user is not at all acceptable for another Pro user could be complete overkill for yet a third Pro user. The idea of driving up the cost for all be including components that may not be needed is foolish. Especially when Apple components have been historically overpriced.
RAM is rather pointless to discuss. It will probably come with 8GB of RAM (4x2GB config), as that's being seen as the new minimum just to run an OS. While 4 can do it, you pretty quickly run out just using Safari these days. And despite the fact that most users will quickly take out that 8GB of RAM, I think Apple is right not to save $50 (or less with volumn discounts Apple gets), that probably wouldn't be passed along to consumers anyway, and give us a system that works well out of the box.

And, from what we know now, it looks like RAM is going to be the single user-replacable part. So, meh, forget Apple's pricing on RAM, and just buy it from newegg or owc.

Now the PCIe SSD is going to be interesting to see. I think it will be 128GB. That's what the new air starts at, and for many users that's plenty for a system drive. But they might feel pressure to make it 256GB since it has to be better than the little laptop. But I don't think that thinking will win out.

Thus, I think we'll see an E5-1620 v2, 128GB PCIe SSD, 8GB ECC RAM, and some unknown graphics card option in the base model. Hopefully all that will add up to something like $2199 or less, since you can't really do anything until you plug a $500+ TB RAID system in...

----------

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Apple is not saving any money by not having empty internal storage bays or PCIe bays. Yes I realize that there is no room for internal expandability and that does drive up the cost for external peripherals but those are the breaks.
Its also why many people are unhappy with the current design, especially if no price reduction is seen. So, Apple has put themselves in a situation where they are probably choosing between maintaining the same profit margin as before and driving some customers away, or dropping profit margins and trying to attract more users.

We will see what Apple picks.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 12:48 AM   #15
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If its comparable hardware one would expect the price to be comparable so I doubt that it will be $1500 cheaper. Apple is not saving any money by not having empty internal storage bays or PCIe bays. Yes I realize that there is no room for internal expandability and that does drive up the cost for external peripherals but those are the breaks.
Well today, a 16 core Dell goes for the same price as the current 12 core MP (5,1).

System costs are only driven up if I go with an iCan. If I go with a Dell, I save $1500 - and I'll end up with more cores, which is more important to my workflow than a 2nd GPU which won't be used by the software in my workflow.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 05:39 AM   #16
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 06:04 AM   #17
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although they are using two GPUs they have cut costs considerably in the production of this new model.
In what way? Although there's no apparent option for a second CPU, which is what makes the current high end models leap up in cost, that doesn't represent a saving for the low end model.

While the case is smaller, strips out most of the fans and has ditched internal HDDs and the superdrive, none of those are that expensive. The only saving really is on space, and any saving on cost will most likely be balanced by the cost of more compact components such as the power supply, a custom heat-sink, more complex custom single fan etc.

Instead, all models will now have Flash memory for storage, which isn't cheap at all, and it seems likely the entire range will have dual GPUs as standard, which again can't be cheap. It's also possible that all of the GPU options will be for Fire Pros with the only difference being the amount of VRAM. The entire line is also now going to be built in the US, which is an additional cost.

So we're talking about the entry-level Mac Pro potentially having two high-end GPUs and Flash memory which means it's likely to be more expensive.


Personally I'm hoping that one of the reasons Apple revealed the Pro early was so they could get a feel for the response, as it could give them time to setup a single GPU option. Even better would be options for a different model of GPU and a non-Xeon CPU, these kinds of options could allow them to offer a competitive "Mac Mini Pro" without an insane cost, and would suit the needs of less high-end users such as software developers. Give a less shiny Darth Vader case to distinguish it and it could be a great option to the line-up. After all, it's not like the Mac Pro needs many models in the range; you'd have a core i7 quad CPU and a desktop class ATI GPU, maybe with a 1-2gb option. Mid-range would be the 6-core Xeon with one Fire Pro 4gb VRAM (or two with 2gb, though one is probably cheaper). Then the high-end has the twin GPUs with up to the full 6gb VRAM each, and the 12-core Xeon.


Also, for those people who keep telling everyone that an iMac is fine for their needs; please stop. An iMac is a terrible option for someone that already has a screen, as you have to pay a hefty premium for an integrated screen you don't need. All-in-ones are fine for people that don't already have a computer, or for lunatics that are happy to get rid of an existing screen, but if you already have everything you need then an all-in-one is a bad option. This is one of the reasons I actually really like the idea of the new Mac Pro as it's more Mac Mini like in that you could just drop it into an existing setup without too much hassle (unless you have Firewire devices like me, bah!).

Since storage is now forced into enclosures it also introduces the possibility of just using a Mac Mini and swapping for a Mac Pro later on, but only if you can live without a discrete GPU. This is why Apple could really do with a Mac Pro option that uses more typical desktop parts to give solid enough performance. Given how (comparatively) simple the new Mac Pro is, offering such an option could be as simple as swapping some or all of the three boards to give you the correct combination of CPU and GPUs.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 07:10 AM   #18
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In what way? Although there's no apparent option for a second CPU, which is what makes the current high end models leap up in cost, that doesn't represent a saving for the low end model.

While the case is smaller, strips out most of the fans and has ditched internal HDDs and the superdrive, none of those are that expensive. The only saving really is on space, and any saving on cost will most likely be balanced by the cost of more compact components such as the power supply, a custom heat-sink, more complex custom single fan etc.

Instead, all models will now have Flash memory for storage, which isn't cheap at all, and it seems likely the entire range will have dual GPUs as standard, which again can't be cheap. It's also possible that all of the GPU options will be for Fire Pros with the only difference being the amount of VRAM. The entire line is also now going to be built in the US, which is an additional cost.

So we're talking about the entry-level Mac Pro potentially having two high-end GPUs and Flash memory which means it's likely to be more expensive.
The new Mac Pro appears to be nearly all custom parts, uses a lot less parts and it isn't being out-sourced. Apple wouldn't have done all this if they couldn't sell a lot more volume and that isn't going to come from a large price increase. Also keep in mind the $2,499 Mac Pros from 2009-2012 had $1,200-$1300 worth of hardware in them at retail pricing, Apple had huge margins on them.

If they aren't going to have a low end model then sure I can see the price being much higher, but for a 4-core, 8GB RAM type system? It isn't going to be $3,500+ and sell when other workstations with such specs start at $1,200.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 08:12 AM   #19
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The new Mac Pro appears to be nearly all custom parts, uses a lot less parts and it isn't being out-sourced. Apple wouldn't have done all this if they couldn't sell a lot more volume and that isn't going to come from a large price increase. Also keep in mind the $2,499 Mac Pros from 2009-2012 had $1,200-$1300 worth of hardware in them at retail pricing, Apple had huge margins on them.
Exactly, I'm getting tired of hearing the constant drum beat of "the price has to be higher". Bull! I'm sure one of the reasons of the stripped down system was to reduce the cost, probably to $2k on the low end. People seem to be so stupidly focused on the retail price of FirePro graphics, not recognizing that the price just reflects AMD driver "certification". In the Mac the drivers all come from Apple and they drive supplier costs down to the ground. Those graphics chips are little different from the consumer versions.

Apple is all about high volume consumer sales, and the present Mac Pro sticks out like sore thumb. The Darth Vadar Edition at $2K would bring in a lot of prosumers and bring sales in line with their other higher end computers.

Quote:
but for a 4-core, 8GB RAM type system? It isn't going to be $3,500+ and sell when other workstations with such specs start at $1,200.
Mark my words, I agree I'd be highly surprised to see a 4-core/8GB RAM/128GB Flash/W5000 GPU (possibly single GPU BTO) that isn't at $1,999
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 10:18 AM   #20
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Apple is all about high volume consumer sales, and the present Mac Pro sticks out like sore thumb. The Darth Vadar Edition at $2K would bring in a lot of prosumers and bring sales in line with their other higher end computers.



Mark my words, I agree I'd be highly surprised to see a 4-core/8GB RAM/128GB Flash/W5000 GPU (possibly single GPU BTO) that isn't at $1,999
I'll probably pass on a 4-core model if Apple actually makes one. A six-core processor sounds more like what Apple will offer for the entry point but it could depend on what kind of price/performance a new 4-core Mac Pro would offer.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 11:08 AM   #21
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Exactly, I'm getting tired of hearing the constant drum beat of "the price has to be higher". Bull! I'm sure one of the reasons of the stripped down system was to reduce the cost, probably to $2k on the low end.
They both reduced and increased the price. They pulled some lower cost stuff out but shifted to two GPUs. There is likely no large net reduction in costs. They may be a couple $100 closer to the $2,000 border with the iMac but they are likely not going to exactly match it.

They do need to get the price closer to $2K to get volumes up a bit but nothing points them trying to cross that mark and entery iMac's price zone.
FirePro certifications, likely 12 core BTO options, 3x as many Thunderbolt ports, etc. all point to a system about the same price as the current one.
The new Mac Pro is going to be able to do things the iMac can't. Hence, not going to be equally priced.


Quote:
Mark my words, I agree I'd be highly surprised to see a 4-core/8GB RAM/128GB Flash/W5000 GPU (possibly single GPU BTO) that isn't at $1,999
A W5000 can't drive 7 video outputs ( 6 DisplayPort (backward compatible mode TB ports ) and one HDMI It is way toooo low end. Minimally probably looking at W7000's, which will keep the price up close to the old $2,499.

[ NOTE: W5000 here only listed as supporting 2 DisplayPort outputs.
http://www.amd.com/us/products/works...omparison.aspx

Even with two cards that is only 4. There are 6 ports on the Mac Pro 2013 that must output DP to pass TB certification. ]

Doubtful they'll be a BTO config without the 2nd GPU. More likely getting to the 7 video outputs minimal configuration is physically dependent upon two cards (i.e., a subset of DisplayPort connections running from each GPU to separate Thunderbolt controllers and from one GPU to the HMDI output).

There are probably equivalent cards to W7000 , W8000 , and W9000 in the line up. A W5000 doesn't make much sense at all unless trying to work backward from some sub $2K price point using FirePro street pricing. Apple's card don't need to be priced at FirePro street pricing. So there is no need for a entry level GPU that is slower than the current iMac top end GPU BTO option. I don't think that is how Apple designs the systems. Crippling the Mac Pro so it can be priced under iMacs with worse GPUs isn't an Apple like move.


The 128GB Flash is also pretty lame. The rMBP 15" starts off at 256GB. 128GB is in the 13" laptop range and closer to $1,000 not $2,000 systems.
Remember Apple isn't gong to move the Mac Pro SSD in price/capacity for at least a year. In 2014 a workstation capped at 128GB internal isn't going to fly very well.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 11:20 AM   #22
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A six-core processor sounds more like what Apple will offer for the entry point but it could depend on what kind of price/performance a new 4-core Mac Pro would offer.
Not really. Currently

E5 1620 $294
E5 1650 $583

http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2012/2...2600_CPUs.html

There are no 2600 variants that can touch those two in that price range on 4-6 core performance.

Historically

2009 Xeon 3520 $294 ( http://ark.intel.com/products/39718/...-GTs-Intel-QPI )

2010 Xeon 3530 $294 ( http://ark.intel.com/products/41313/...-GTs-Intel-QPI )

2012 Xeon 3565 $294 ( http://ark.intel.com/products/41313/...-GTs-Intel-QPI )


The likelihood that in 2013 that the entry level CPU is going to jump up into the $600 range is pretty low. The likelihood that Intel is going to price the E5 1650 v2 into the $300 range is dismally microscopic.


The E5 1620 and E5 1620 v2 are much different than the "stuck in the mud" Xeon 3500 series was/is. In the E5 sequence the entry 4 core model is one of the highest base clocked models. For users whose software is core constrained it is actually a better fit $/performance wise. It would be kind of silly for Apple to skip those since they need to have a manageable gap in performance and price between Mac Pro and iMac. Skipping the 1620 is the wrong way to do that.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 04:21 PM   #23
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A W5000 can't drive 7 video outputs ( 6 DisplayPort (backward compatible mode TB ports ) and one HDMI It is way toooo low end. Minimally probably looking at W7000's, which will keep the price up close to the old $2,499.
All good points, however they have a history of having video restrictions (certain computers only support certain configurations). Assuming that it's possible to have a non video thunderbolt connection, I wouldn't be too surprised if they couldn't say that video is only supported on the top two ports or something. Or just out of the HDMI. But I don't know anything about the AMD cards, so don't know there.

Quote:
The 128GB Flash is also pretty lame. The rMBP 15" starts off at 256GB. 128GB is in the 13" laptop range and closer to $1,000 not $2,000 systems.
Remember Apple isn't gong to move the Mac Pro SSD in price/capacity for at least a year. In 2014 a workstation capped at 128GB internal isn't going to fly very well.
Yeah but that doesn't stop them from cheaping out. I have a 11" Air with a measly 2GB of RAM back when 4GB was standard. I stupidly didn't upgrade at the time, but it was ridiculous of Apple to have that as the starting configuration.

Learned my lesson though. When I buy a MP I'll get what I want, from the start.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 04:38 PM   #24
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Yeah but that doesn't stop them from cheaping out. I have a 11" Air with a measly 2GB of RAM back when 4GB was standard
Just because other manufactures installed 4GB as the default configuration on some of there computers does not make it a standard. Additionally there were no other ultra books at the time that had 4GB as their default configuration. Many Laptops/notebooks had 4GB as their default configuration but not ultrabooks.
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 06:52 PM   #25
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I think I agree with Umbongo.

The technical analysis you folks provide is fascinating. When I read a new post, I often think: "Well, that makes sense." And then there's a contradictory post that also makes sense.

Ultimately, I think Apple loves its price points and does whatever it can to maintain them. I'll look for a $2499 entry level model with prices going up from there as number of cores goes up. Toss in the usual set of goodies for high priced models, larger SSD, more memory ...
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