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Old Aug 2, 2013, 05:46 PM   #1
bradl
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Your Child Left Behind?

This is more of a parental issue, but since it deals with No Child Left Behind, I can see this immediately going to PRSI, so here it goes. I'm asking for input, especially from those of you who are parents of children or have actually been through the program as to "what would you do?"

My wife's and my decision is already made on the matter, so I'm just wondering on what others would do. But here's the problem:

For one reason or another, your child has qualified for an Individualized Education Plan (IEP). The reason for that qualification could be anything from as simple as speech delay to an actual disability. Whatever the reason, your child has qualified for it.

Prior to the school year starting, you receive a letter in the mail stating that the school in question has entered Program Improvement (PI), as for 2 consecutive years, the school has underachieved in both the state's standard and federal standards as defined by No Child Left Behind. They also are offering, should the parent request, to provide transportation at no expense to another school during the time that the school is under PI until they meet federal and state standard (obviously, when they meet the standard, transportation will not be provided).

They list you the schools that offer IEP, in which they also state that those schools have also underachieved, and are under the same situation as the current school. This leaves you a choice of those schools, or moving out of the school district to another one that has IEP, and has met or exceeded state and federal standard.

The question I have is: what would you do? Luckily, the child is young enough to not have any true friendship ties (yet), but does have a bit of sense of trust in the teachers they are with. Would moving be too much of an undertaking just to get your child the proper education and feel comfortable that the teachers and school are providing it to the best of their abilities? As the child isn't old enough yet, charter and/or private schools are out of the question. But what would you do? Leave them at a school where they are definitely getting the help they need, while the school is failing under NCLB, or pull them and move to another school district (if another is available)?

BL.
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Old Aug 2, 2013, 05:56 PM   #2
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Leave them at a school where they are definitely getting the help they need, while the school is failing under NCLB, or pull them and move to another school district (if another is available)?
If my child's needs are being met and he/she is showing improvement, I would keep my child there.

At the end of the day, there can be a lot of reasons why a school doesn't meet all of the requirements of NCLB. Some or most of them may not pertain to your particular child's needs.
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Old Aug 2, 2013, 06:00 PM   #3
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My kids are grown now but we moved to town that had a much better school system than where we were living. In our view the kid's education came above almost every other consideration. I hope that answers your question.
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Old Aug 2, 2013, 06:32 PM   #4
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If my child's needs are being met and he/she is showing improvement, I would keep my child there.

At the end of the day, there can be a lot of reasons why a school doesn't meet all of the requirements of NCLB. Some or most of them may not pertain to your particular child's needs.
That is a good point, as most IEPs start at the pre-kindergarten level, and where that may be excelling, the rest of the school may be falling behind. Something worth looking into.

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My kids are grown now but we moved to town that had a much better school system than where we were living. In our view the kid's education came above almost every other consideration. I hope that answers your question.
And that is where we are at as well. Since the only experience I have with changing schools is my own, my parents moved mainly to get away from the gang activity that was increasing in the neighbourhood we were in. But again, my mother worked in the school system where we lived, so it wasn't as if I couldn't get pulled to a better school. The other difference is that there was only one school district where I lived, and that was a town of nearly 500,000 so to get to a better school, parents could either request that the child be transferred there, or move to the that school's attendance area. Where we are at now, the city is split up into smaller incorporated cities and suburbs, with each having its own school district. So to get to another school, you'd have to move to the area the school district has, plus be in the attendance area of the school in question. That type of selection makes it harder.

Obviously, if it is for the child, you'd find a way to do it. But that says nothing about the school that failed under NCLB. It obviously won't get better if people start to abandon the school. So the question becomes: put your child first and get them to a better school, or help everyone by keeping your child there and help the school figure out a way to meet/exceed NCLB standards..

BL.
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Old Aug 2, 2013, 11:51 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bradl
So the question becomes: put your child first and get them to a better school, or help everyone by keeping your child there and help the school figure out a way to meet/exceed NCLB standards..
I'd put my child first and send them to a better school, preferably in a district which also has a great high school for later on. Better to do it now while (s)he is still young.

Moving is a pain and stressful for everyone involved, but you do what you gotta do.
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Old Aug 3, 2013, 12:06 AM   #6
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...the question becomes: put your child first and get them to a better school, or help everyone by keeping your child there and help the school figure out a way to meet/exceed NCLB standards...
think you nailed the crux of it there. don't believe there will be a 'right' answer, only the correct one for you or anyone else who would dare ask it.

my perspective has changed dramatically over time as my kids have grown, and now tend to lean toward a connection with a teacher over a school/stat approach. seeing how different my two boys are and the different needs and interests has really opened my eyes to new methods and ways of approaching teaching and learning. i value a teacher who can meet the child at the right point and move together in the right direction over a line/level on a standardized test any day. to me, love of learning is what matters at the end of the day.

this parenting gig is the hardest damn job i've ever had. every decision is difficult and has crazy long lasting ramifications. no pressure....
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Old Aug 3, 2013, 10:35 AM   #7
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In order of preference:

Homeschool
Private school

The IEP sounds suspiciously like it will come with medication. You want no part of that.

Government schools are a poor choice for the education of children anyway, but particularly so if your child has been singled out for special attention.

>
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Old Aug 3, 2013, 12:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
That is a good point, as most IEPs start at the pre-kindergarten level, and where that may be excelling, the rest of the school may be falling behind. Something worth looking into.
Without knowing more details, it is pretty difficult to say. I am very crime-averse myself, and, elementary schools that feed into high-crime middle and high schools are definitely a problem. But, I went to schools where poor minorities were the majority and that was never an issue. I think parents can easily make up for most gaps in education, and, teachers are generally far better qualified today than they were 50 years ago.

Quote:
Where we are at now, the city is split up into smaller incorporated cities and suburbs, with each having its own school district. So to get to another school, you'd have to move to the area the school district has, plus be in the attendance area of the school in question. That type of selection makes it harder.
A word of warning. Moving to a school district that is too high-achieving can also be problematic. If all your kid's friends are learning Calculus in middle school, a kid on an IEP can have a much bigger social challenge than in a normal school. And, the super-high-performing school district may view every kid on an IEP as a waste of precious pre-AP-exam resources.

Quote:

Obviously, if it is for the child, you'd find a way to do it. But that says nothing about the school that failed under NCLB. It obviously won't get better if people start to abandon the school. So the question becomes: put your child first and get them to a better school, or help everyone by keeping your child there and help the school figure out a way to meet/exceed NCLB standards..

BL.
I wouldn't be concerned at all about "abandoning" a badly-run school, but, I don't consider a high-minority school as necessarily failing. NCLB-driven testing discriminates against schools with a lot of foreign language speaking English language learners. Looking retrospectively at my own and my children's education, I would look for an average, diverse, low-crime district.

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Originally Posted by shinji View Post
I'd put my child first and send them to a better school, preferably in a district which also has a great high school for later on. Better to do it now while (s)he is still young.

Moving is a pain and stressful for everyone involved, but you do what you gotta do.
In my experience, "better" is not always better.

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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
In order of preference:

Homeschool
Private school

The IEP sounds suspiciously like it will come with medication. You want no part of that.

Government schools are a poor choice for the education of children anyway, but particularly so if your child has been singled out for special attention.

>
(The usual misdirected Libertarian Religion stuff.) Note that some children do benefit greatly from medication, and, many others do not. I don't agree with blanket statements; every child is different.
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Old Aug 3, 2013, 12:38 PM   #9
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My wife works in childhood education so I would homeschool, but the alternative would be private school or move. You can't go back and redo your education, and its a pivotal time in the kids life.
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Old Aug 3, 2013, 02:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
In order of preference:

Homeschool
Private school

The IEP sounds suspiciously like it will come with medication. You want no part of that.
Here is where I get personal, as if you haven't guessed under the innuendo outside of the statement that my wife and I already have made our decision, this involves my child.

You do not know what my child has gone through to even warrant or ASSume that medication is involved. In fact, it hasn't. To go straight to that assumption is completely asinine.

In short, you don't get to judge my child; that is up to myself, the teacher who works with him, and his/our Creator. You certainly/most definitely/thankfully are not it.

If anything, I would think you would owe an apology to my child; luckily, he doesn't know who you are, nor does he CARE who you are.

Not for nothing, his speech delay was exactly that; he was approximately 9 months behind in the natural speech development for a child his age. He has caught up to that. So his IEP is actually at the pre-kindergarten level, not anything higher. So for you to honestly think that we or the public school district is going to drug up a 3 to 4 year old child is petrifyingly sick.

Too bad that is a NATURAL think that commonly occurs. Furthermore, too bad your immediate jump to medication indicates your naivety of this issue. I wanted to leave out the personal nature of it. It's sad you brought it into it.

Quote:
Government schools are a poor choice for the education of children anyway, but particularly so if your child has been singled out for special attention.

>
See the above about what you think you know and what I know damn well sure you don't know.

EDIT: I'll again take the high road. Read the link below and educate yourself. You really need it. BADLY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individ...cation_Program

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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
My wife works in childhood education so I would homeschool, but the alternative would be private school or move. You can't go back and redo your education, and its a pivotal time in the kids life.
Very pivotal. And like I said, the only experience I have with moving between schools is my own, but mine was different as it was still within the same district. As I said before, we've made our decision, but I was wondering what others would do in this or any other similar situation. My family couldn't be the only one who has gone through this.

BL.

Last edited by bradl; Aug 3, 2013 at 03:00 PM. Reason: link to IEP
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Old Aug 3, 2013, 05:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
In order of preference:
The IEP sounds suspiciously like it will come with medication. You want no part of that.
I was an IEP student. And I was never medicated. Jus' sayin'.
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 07:11 AM   #12
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 10:14 AM   #13
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The IEP sounds suspiciously like it will come with medication. You want no part of that.
Why not? What's your experience been on this?
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 11:08 AM   #14
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 11:53 AM   #15
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I do believe that medicating a child for behavioral/developmental issues should always be the absolute last resort. Our society has become far to reliant on pill popping.......
Okay, since you joined in on the question, what's your experience? Why, exactly, do you feel that medication should be an "absolute last resort?" What is the downside? Why should it be avoided?

When you say we've become "far to reliant on pill popping," is there a deeper issue going on here? A bad experience? Or just a personal opinion not based on any real experience or research?

Has taking pills made us "soft" as a society? Should we tell someone to toughen up and get over it next time they get a headache and ask for some Tylenol? Should I skip my blood pressure medication because I've become too reliant on it?

I mean, you make claims like those you made, with no source, no background information, and no explanation, as if you're an expert on the subject. I'd like to know where your opinion is coming from.
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 12:40 PM   #16
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Okay, since you joined in on the question, what's your experience? Why, exactly, do you feel that medication should be an "absolute last resort?" What is the downside? Why should it be avoided?

When you say we've become "far to reliant on pill popping," is there a deeper issue going on here? A bad experience? Or just a personal opinion not based on any real experience or research?

Has taking pills made us "soft" as a society? Should we tell someone to toughen up and get over it next time they get a headache and ask for some Tylenol? Should I skip my blood pressure medication because I've become too reliant on it?

I mean, you make claims like those you made, with no source, no background information, and no explanation, as if you're an expert on the subject. I'd like to know where your opinion is coming from.
This study -
Antidepressant utilization and suicide in Europe: an ecological multi-national study
Find it here somewhere
http://www.plosone.org/

UK use of anti-depressants has risen nearly 500% in the past 20 years.
The most popular being SSRI's which have withdrawal symptoms, often quite serious. Not to mention the range of other side-effects these drugs can have.

I have many personal anecdotes about people on SSRIs and the older tri-cyclics some of which are quite shocking. I have a recent one from my mother who complained of stress (she has taken someone to court and it's really draining her). She was prescribed sertraline. I told her not to touch it when she told me over the phone. She's chilled out now, just had a rough couple of weeks and she's past that. Thankfully without the drugs.
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 01:16 PM   #17
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This study -
Antidepressant utilization and suicide in Europe: an ecological multi-national study
Find it here somewhere
http://www.plosone.org/

UK use of anti-depressants has risen nearly 500% in the past 20 years.
I found it. Here's the very first line from the conclusion, in the article's abstract:

Quote:
Suicide rates have tended to decrease more in European countries where there has been a greater increase in the use of antidepressants.
Oh, the horror! Reducing suicide rates by using antidepressants, who would've thought?

In any event, I'm not sure they're prescribing antidepressants for behavioral or developmental issues (as my post addressed), are they?
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 02:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
Here is where I get personal, as if you haven't guessed under the innuendo outside of the statement that my wife and I already have made our decision, this involves my child.

You do not know what my child has gone through to even warrant or ASSume that medication is involved. In fact, it hasn't. To go straight to that assumption is completely asinine.

In short, you don't get to judge my child; that is up to myself, the teacher who works with him, and his/our Creator. You certainly/most definitely/thankfully are not it.

If anything, I would think you would owe an apology to my child; luckily, he doesn't know who you are, nor does he CARE who you are.

Not for nothing, his speech delay was exactly that; he was approximately 9 months behind in the natural speech development for a child his age. He has caught up to that. So his IEP is actually at the pre-kindergarten level, not anything higher. So for you to honestly think that we or the public school district is going to drug up a 3 to 4 year old child is petrifyingly sick.

Too bad that is a NATURAL think that commonly occurs. Furthermore, too bad your immediate jump to medication indicates your naivety of this issue. I wanted to leave out the personal nature of it. It's sad you brought it into it.



See the above about what you think you know and what I know damn well sure you don't know.

EDIT: I'll again take the high road. Read the link below and educate yourself. You really need it. BADLY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individ...cation_Program



Very pivotal. And like I said, the only experience I have with moving between schools is my own, but mine was different as it was still within the same district. As I said before, we've made our decision, but I was wondering what others would do in this or any other similar situation. My family couldn't be the only one who has gone through this.

BL.
There was no attack on your child in any of my statements and I am saddened that you would view them as such.

On the contrary I am urging you to defend your child from an institutionalized school system that is incapable of properly understanding and addressing his needs, precisely because it is institutionalized.

>
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 02:49 PM   #19
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There was no attack on your child in any of my statements and I am saddened that you would view them as such.

On the contrary I am urging you to defend your child from an institutionalized school system that is incapable of properly understanding and addressing his needs, precisely because it is institutionalized.

>
the problem I have is that you do not know what is going on with my child or any other child outside of your own, and should not make the straight correlation and diagnosis as 'medication'. As listed in the Wikipedia article you should have read:

Quote:
Services specified in IDEA include, but are not limited to, speech therapy, occupational or physical therapy, interpreters, medical services (such as a nurse to perform procedures the child needs during the day, for example, catheterization), orientation and mobility services, parent counseling and training to help parents support the implementation of their childs IEP, psychological or counseling services, recreation services, rehabilitation, social work services, and transportation.
As far as my child goes, all he needed was transportation to the school and speech therapy. But you went straight to medication. Would it also surprise you that an ESL child may also require an IEP? Do they need medication as well? What of an adoptive child, say Baby Veronica?

See, there are too many reasons why a child may need individualized attention, and none of them have anything to do with the presumed conclusion you've brought up, let alone medication.

It appears quite a bit to me, that there is a lot of negativity and cynicism regarding life and institutions such as schools in your posts. While I share in some of them, especially with how education is going down the tubes in this country, keep in mind that we are the product of what we've created and have gone through. No need to pass on that nor the cynicism and negativity to our children. You may want to jettison it as such.

BL.
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 02:53 PM   #20
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My child has just finished her primary school (4-11 years for those of you not in the UK) and is about to start secondary (11-16 or 18 years if you stay on) in September.
She was diagnosed with Higher functioning Autism about half way through. The process of how she got diagnosed was initially the school told us she was fine at school (she was not). Then told the Social Services she was fine and the problems must be at home! After being accused of the most terrible things, she was finally diagnosed and we were cleared of any wrong doing.
We then had a dilemma. Keep her in the school were we had been accused, or take a child who struggles with social issues to a new school.
Wrongly (IMO) we decided to stick it out as it was only 3 more years. Year 4 was her best ever year (because her teacher was excellent). Year 5 was okay, and year 6 was a disaster. She managed about 50% attendance and still finished in the top 5% of her year. In any statistics it would show the school was a success because of her grades. In reality they (for the most part) failed her and us miserably.
The truth is you will get good teachers, bad teachers and average teachers. That is what makes or breaks the experience for a child. Even if you have a supportive head or SENCO teacher, the reality is your child will probably be at the school longer than they will!
Whatever you decide, good luck. How the parent supports any child is just as important as the school.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 07:57 AM   #21
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It appears quite a bit to me, that there is a lot of negativity and cynicism regarding life and institutions such as schools in your posts. While I share in some of them, especially with how education is going down the tubes in this country, keep in mind that we are the product of what we've created and have gone through. No need to pass on that nor the cynicism and negativity to our children. You may want to jettison it as such.

BL.
There is certainly neither cynicsm nor negativity about life in any of my posts as I am a great fan of life and freedom for all individuals. What you are sensing is a lot of cynicism about governmental authority and government institutions as they are antithetical to a respect for free lives.

My suggestion is simply that YOU will be a better caretaker for your child than a government school. If you believe that his or her education is better handled by an agent, then hire that agent yourself so that that agent works solely in YOUR interest. Government schools operate in the interest of the government, not necessarily that of you or your child. Thus my suggestion that you be wary of the IEP and get active about creating your own plan for your child, whether or not that includes the hiring of outside expertise.

>
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 12:20 PM   #22
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 12:33 PM   #23
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Now I watch friends and family around me put their kids with alledged ADHD on drugs at first blush because they rather not have the kids infringe their personal life more than absolutely necessary. It's like there is an ADHD epidemic around me.
So, Doctor, you don't accept that ADHD is a real condition that can be treated with medication?
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 12:43 PM   #24
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Old Aug 13, 2013, 12:53 PM   #25
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...basically all of them got drugs because the parents thought the other options were to cumbersome for them.
Explain further. How is a child with ADHD "cumbersome" for the parents without medication?
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