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Old Aug 4, 2013, 09:30 AM   #1
guzhogi
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Testing Out Torture/Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

Something I was thinking of this morning: with all the non-lethal punishments, interrogation techniques, or whatever they're called, should you have it done to yourself before you're allowed to do it to others?

Take a look at tasters or water boarding. When used appropriately, they're non-lethal. But there have been so many things where I've heard people say "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy."

What do you all think?
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 09:52 AM   #2
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Why would I have to waterboard myself before approving of it done to a terrorist?

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should you have it done to yourself before you're allowed to do it to others?
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 09:58 AM   #3
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Something I was thinking of this morning: with all the non-lethal punishments, interrogation techniques, or whatever they're called, should you have it done to yourself before you're allowed to do it to others?
I don't think you need to have it done to yourself. But it needs to be exposed what exactly is being done, the physical effects, the short and long-term consequences, the rate of injury and death, etc.

(I'm not familiar with the term "tasters". Is that another way to say "force feeding"?)
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 10:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by guzhogi View Post
Something I was thinking of this morning: with all the non-lethal punishments, interrogation techniques, or whatever they're called, should you have it done to yourself before you're allowed to do it to others?

Take a look at tasters or water boarding. When used appropriately, they're non-lethal. But there have been so many things where I've heard people say "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy."

What do you all think?
What makes you think they aren't? I was tazed, pepper (OC) sprayed, and CS'd before being allowed to carry them. My SERE training was pre- water boarding but if they were using it, even to a limited degree, on Special Operators and pilots, I would suspect it was part of the training programs for "enhanced" interrogators.

In April 2009, the U.S. Department of Defense refused to say whether waterboarding is still used for training (e.g. SERE) U.S. military personnel in resistance to interrogation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Last edited by TPadden; Aug 4, 2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 11:26 AM   #5
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Why would I have to waterboard myself before approving of it done to a terrorist?
For LEOs, you have to be tased before you're issued a taser. You have to be pepper sprayed before you're issued pepper spray. So if you're going to be waterboarding someone, you should have to be waterboarded first.

That said, we shouldn't be using torture at all. It's an egregious human rights violation.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 12:42 PM   #6
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For LEOs, you have to be tased before you're issued a taser. You have to be pepper sprayed before you're issued pepper spray. So if you're going to be waterboarding someone, you should have to be waterboarded first.
I asked why. Pretty sure we're all aware of testing. I've seen journalists tazed, for kicks.

If there is a reason why, then are we to be tazed/waterboarded etc - to the same degree.

Because that's where the real issue lies as far as I'm concerned. Torture can range from fun, to sexual, to mildy irritating.

Or it can be so extreme that it breaks a person mentally and/or physically. Are the CIA agents implicated in torture broken down for months by waterboarding until they crack, so that they're allowed to use the techniques in the field?
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 12:48 PM   #7
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I asked why. Pretty sure we're all aware of testing. I've seen journalists tazed, for kicks........ Are the CIA agents implicated in torture broken down for months by waterboarding until they crack, so that they're allowed to use the techniques in the field?
Guess you'd have to ask them; ..... but then you'd run into the old "I'd have to kill you if I told you" catch 22 !
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 12:50 PM   #8
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Guess you'd have to ask them; ..... but then you'd run into the old "I'd have to kill you if I told you" catch 22 !
Watched Damages Season 4 last week. I don't want to be anywhere near a CIA agent!
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 12:51 PM   #9
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Because that's where the real issue lies as far as I'm concerned. Torture can range from fun, to sexual, to mildy irritating.
Sounds to me you've put too much thought into torture. I'm returning to changing front and rear tires on my motorcycle; torture enough for me .
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 12:52 PM   #10
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Or it can be so extreme that it breaks a person mentally and/or physically. Are the CIA agents implicated in torture broken down for months by waterboarding until they crack, so that they're allowed to use the techniques in the field?
Exactly.

It's one thing to be tazed or waterboarded by your colleagues in a situation you know is controlled versus those things being done to you by an adversarial force possibly to the point or injury or death.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 12:57 PM   #11
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Exactly.

It's one thing to be tazed or waterboarded by your colleagues in a situation you know is controlled versus those things being done to you by an adversarial force possibly to the point or injury or death.
Exactly.

Kind of like being bombed by your colleagues in a situation you know is controlled versus those things being done to you by an adversarial force always to the point or injury or death .....
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 01:23 PM   #12
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Kind of like being bombed by your colleagues in a situation you know is controlled versus those things being done to you by an adversarial force always to the point or injury or death.....
That makes so little sense.

Being blown up would be the same regardless of who detonated the bomb.

However, torture under the hands of an adversary is vastly different than a controlled exercise with friends and colleagues.

I'm sorry that you can't see the difference.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 01:24 PM   #13
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Exactly.

Kind of like being bombed by your colleagues in a situation you know is controlled versus those things being done to you by an adversarial force always to the point or injury or death .....
No, that's not the same at all.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 01:30 PM   #14
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But I see the strict application of logic behind it
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 02:12 PM   #15
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I asked why. Pretty sure we're all aware of testing. I've seen journalists tazed, for kicks.

If there is a reason why, then are we to be tazed/waterboarded etc - to the same degree.

Because that's where the real issue lies as far as I'm concerned. Torture can range from fun, to sexual, to mildy irritating.

Or it can be so extreme that it breaks a person mentally and/or physically. Are the CIA agents implicated in torture broken down for months by waterboarding until they crack, so that they're allowed to use the techniques in the field?
Why? They should know what they're inflicting on another human being. If something is so extreme that they wouldn't be willing to undergo it themselves, they shouldn't be doing it to other people. That's the bottom line in my opinion.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 02:21 PM   #16
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Why? They should know what they're inflicting on another human being. If something is so extreme that they wouldn't be willing to undergo it themselves, they shouldn't be doing it to other people. That's the bottom line in my opinion.
And to what degree?
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 04:26 PM   #17
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Why? They should know what they're inflicting on another human being. If something is so extreme that they wouldn't be willing to undergo it themselves, they shouldn't be doing it to other people. That's the bottom line in my opinion.
Interesting concept to apply to the death penalty. Of course, after testing the effects, it would be rather difficult to turn around and apply the same penalty to another. s/
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 05:50 PM   #18
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George Washington on Torture

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Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."

John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."

Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."
https://www.commondreams.org/views05/1217-30.htm


Here is another one. Washington's letter to Benedict Arnold regarding his expedition into Quebec:

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Camp at Cambridge, September 14, 1775.

Sir: You are intrusted with a Command of the utmost Consequence sequence to the Interest and Liberties of America. Upon your Conduct and Courage and that of the Officers and Soldiers detached on this Expedition, not only the Success of the present Enterprize, and your own Honour, but the Safety and Welfare of the Whole Continent may depend. I charge you, therefore, and the Officers and Soldiers, under your Command, as you value your own Safety and Honour and the Favour and Esteem of your Country, that you consider yourselves, as marching, not through an Enemy's Country; but that of our Friends and Brethren, for such the Inhabitants of Canada, and the Indian Nations have approved themselves in this unhappy Contest between Great Britain and America. That you check by every Motive of Duty and Fear of Punishment, every Attempt to plunder or insult any of the Inhabitants of Canada. Should any American Soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any Canadian or Indian, in his Person or Property, I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary Punishment as the Enormity of the Crime may require. Should it extend to Death itself it will not be disproportional to its Guilt at such a Time and in such a Cause: But I hope and trust, that the brave Men who have voluntarily engaged in this Expedition, will be governed by far different Views. that Order, Discipline and Regularity of Behaviour will be as conspicuous, as their Courage and Valour. I also give it in Charge to you to avoid all Disrespect to or Contempt of the Religion of the Country and its Ceremonies. Prudence, Policy, and a true Christian Spirit, will lead us to look with Compassion upon their Errors without insulting them. While we are contending for our own Liberty, we should be very cautious of violating the Rights of Conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the Judge of the Hearts of Men, and to him only in this Case, they are answerable. Upon the whole, Sir, I beg you to inculcate upon the Officers and Soldiers, the Necessity of preserving the strictest Order during their March through Canada; to represent to them the Shame, Disgrace and Ruin to themselves and Country, if they should by their Conduct, turn the Hearts of our Brethren in Canada against us. And on the other Hand, the Honours and Rewards which await them, if by their Prudence and good Behaviour, they conciliate the Affections of the Canadians and Indians, to the great Interests of America, and convert those favorable Dispositions they have shewn into a lasting Union and Affection. Thus wishing you and the Officers and Soldiers under your Command, all Honour, Safety and Success, I remain Sir, etc.
Washington's principle makes just as much sense today as it did then.
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Old Aug 4, 2013, 05:52 PM   #19
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Why? They should know what they're inflicting on another human being. If something is so extreme that they wouldn't be willing to undergo it themselves, they shouldn't be doing it to other people. That's the bottom line in my opinion.
I don't want to go to jail but I have no problem sending other people to it for life.
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Old Aug 5, 2013, 10:15 AM   #20
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For LEOs, you have to be tased before you're issued a taser. You have to be pepper sprayed before you're issued pepper spray. So if you're going to be waterboarding someone, you should have to be waterboarded first.

That said, we shouldn't be using torture at all. It's an egregious human rights violation.
Uh, no you don't. Guess they have to be hit with a baton first too, or better yet shot.
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 10:27 AM   #21
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My colleagues and I waterboarded each other while in the service. We did have medics present just in case, but despite the controlled circumstances, I decided to never waterboard anyone for real after that.

Waterboarding is torture.
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 03:51 PM   #22
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That said, we shouldn't be using torture at all. It's an egregious human rights violation.
How is water boarding a human rights violation?
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 04:50 PM   #23
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How is water boarding a human rights violation?

Because it's torture. What's more, in the case of the United States, often inflicted without due process.

The United States is signatory to the Geneva Convention and the United Nations Convention against Torture, just for starters. The Treaty Clause means that international treaties become part of US federal law.

John McCain, who knows more about torture than anyone here:

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Ask any military lawyer, ask any person who knows about the Geneva Conventions that we're signatories to. We actually prosecuted Japanese war criminals specifically for the act of waterboarding against Americans.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...re_112075.html
Clear enough?
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 05:53 PM   #24
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How is water boarding a human rights violation?
It's torture.

And, there was a time when the United States recognized the practice as a war crime.

As former JAG attorney Evan Wallach noted in the Washington Post, the "water cure" was used by Japanese interrogators in WWII. After the war, several Japanese officers were executed for war crimes during the "Tokyo Trials" and one of the offenses was the use of the "water cure" or water-boarding.

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...That term is used to describe several interrogation techniques. The victim may be immersed in water, have water forced into the nose and mouth, or have water poured onto material placed over the face so that the liquid is inhaled or swallowed. The media usually characterize the practice as "simulated drowning." That's incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death.

That is, the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted. According to those who have studied waterboarding's effects, it can cause severe psychological trauma, such as panic attacks, for years.
As Wallach notes, the United States prosecuted the use of the technique as far back as the Spanish-American War and as recently as 1983 when a Texas sheriff was sentenced to 10 years for doing the same thing to a prisoner.
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Old Aug 14, 2013, 06:50 PM   #25
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It's torture.
Not according to the U.S. Government....

How can it possibly be torture? The U.S. Government used it and the President of the United States has stated on multiple occasions that we DO NOT torture people.

If it is torture as you stated why has no one been charged?
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