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Old Aug 6, 2013, 03:49 AM   #1
iMikeT
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"Shoot first" mentality kills a 95 year old man

A 95 year old WWII veteran named John Wrana was killed over the weekend when police were called to his room in the retirement home he was living in. Unable to calm him down, police equipped with riot gear used both a taser then later a beanbag fired from a shotgun. Wrana later died from internal bleeding caused by the beanbag shotgun.


Chicago Tribune article


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So it looks like a group of "tough guy" cops equipped with riot gear needed to subdue a 95 year old man with a taser and a beanbag shotgun, both claimed to be "less lethal" force. What was it about this 95 year old man that the police felt fear for their lives? Was it his walker? Was it his cane? Was it his senility? Was it his wrinkly skin? Was it his crankiness? Perhaps it was it his bad hip or how high he wears his pants?

There are conflicting accounts about what happened in this case. There's the version from the police where they claim to being threatened by a geriatric person that needed a walker to get around, of course. Then the version where the living assistance staff wanted to get in the room where Wrana was so they can actually help calm him down. On top of that, the people who knew him best made no mention of this man ever being a threat to anyone.

Personally, I think the police department is in full CYA mode and claim to being threatened by a man who needed a walker. And if that's the case, these old-man shooters aren't so tough if they can't handle a 95 year old man, which in turn is such a weak case being made for self-defense. What are we coming to as a society when those who are hired to work for the public can't wait to use excessive force especially against the weakest among us?
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 04:08 AM   #2
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Must be nice havin' a badge. Can get away with absurd behaviour all in the name of public service. Anyone else would be deemed a murderer.

Check this out. Police get a call from the public of a man in the area with a samurai sword. They go on patrol, and one officer sees a blind guy walkin slowly with a walking stick. Officer says 'stop'. Blind guy keeps walkin' along - gets tasered.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-19979184

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Old Aug 6, 2013, 04:11 AM   #3
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This thread wreaks of "I hate cops" biasness

I'm not even going into the situation and who was right or wrong because quite frankly no one on this forum was there at the time. Let to courts do their job and hold those who broke the law (cops or otherwise) be held accountable.

Bad **** happens in the world much worse than this everyday. At least this guy lived to 95 years old in America unlike 3rd world children of the world who perish due to neglect and starvation.

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Old Aug 6, 2013, 05:06 AM   #4
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This thread wreaks of "I hate cops" biasness

I'm not even going into the situation and who was right or wrong because quite frankly no one on this forum was there at the time. Let to courts do their job and hold those who broke the law (cops or otherwise) be held accountable.

Bad s*** happens in the world much worse than this everyday. At least this guy lived to 95 years old in America unlike 3rd world children of the world who perish due to neglect and starvation.
Yeah. 95 year old gets blasted with a lead pellet bag by police and dies to internal bleeding. But that's OK. Bad ***** happens everyday. Could have been worse. He could have starved in a 3rd world country.

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Old Aug 6, 2013, 05:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
Yeah. 95 year old gets blasted with a lead pellet bag by police and dies to internal bleeding. But that's OK. Bad ***** happens everyday. Could have been worse. He could have starved in a 3rd world country.

Whatever, if you want to make **** up like "But that's OK." then that's on you. I'm simply a realist in calling out this thread as no-real-knowledge police bashing when the OP or even the news article is obviously biased from the beginning.

As for worse things happening everyday in the world then your are correct. Hell, I just got an Amber Alert tonight about a woman in California who was 44 that got murdered by a man she knew and her kids stolen. This police incident isn't even in the same league as that or children starving. At least this guy live a long life in a good country which is more than most people could ask for.

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Old Aug 6, 2013, 05:33 AM   #6
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Whatever, if you want to make s*** up like "But that's OK." then that's on you. I'm simply a realist in calling out this thread as no-real-knowledge police bashing when the OP or even the news article is obviously biased from the beginning.

As for worse things happening everyday in the world then your are correct. Hell, I just got an Amber Alert tonight about a woman in California who was 44 that got murdered by a man she knew and her kids stolen. This police incident isn't even in the same league as that or children starving. At least this guy live a long life in a good country which is more than most people could ask for.
You're not being a realist. You're being an apologist. And you're using the plight of people starving in 3rd world countries to mitigate how bad this tragedy seems.

Police killing a 95 year old man is a shocking tragedy. Nothing we've heard so far changes that.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 05:52 AM   #7
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You're not being a realist. You're being an apologist. And you're using the plight of people starving in 3rd world countries to mitigate how bad this tragedy seems.

Police killing a 95 year old man is a shocking tragedy. Nothing we've heard so far changes that.
I'm ok with being an apologist. As long as it keeps me in a good perspective of what I can control and what I can't.

It's sad that a person had to die, but since no one on this forum was there or knows the real circumstances behind the situation then pulling up some biased news article and saying "down with police!" doesn't do any real good. All that does is get people riled up and promotes further ignorance which is exactly what the OP (and the Chicago tribune reporter) wanted when he made the thread title.

What about the fact that the police report says he grabbed a 12 inch butcher knife? Now of course you could say "Oh the cops are lying!" and sure, they might be, but you or I don't know jack **** because we weren't there. If he did grab a 12 inch butcher knife to use against the cops then I can fully understand the use of a taser and, if that didn't work, a beanbag. If he did have the knife then this wouldn't be a "shocking tragedy"... simply a man who was stupid and got himself shot by arming himself and threatening others.

But of course you or I don't, and will never, know the real truth.

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Old Aug 6, 2013, 06:03 AM   #8
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I'm ok with being an apologist. As long as it keeps me in a good perspective of what I can control and what I can't.

It's sad that a person had to die, but since no one on this forum was there or knows the real circumstances behind the situation then pulling up some biased news article and saying "down with police!" doesn't do any real good. All that does is get people riled up and promotes further ignorance which is exactly what the OP (and the Chicago tribune reporter) wanted when he made the thread title.

What about the fact that the police report says he grabbed a 12 inch butcher knife? Now of course you could say "Oh the cops are lying!" and sure, they might be, but you or I don't know jack s*** because we weren't there. If he did grab a 12 inch butcher knife to use against the cops then I can fully understand the use of a taser and, if that didn't work, a beanbag. If he did have the knife then this wouldn't be a "shocking tragedy"... simply a man who was stupid and got himself shot by arming himself and threatening others.

But of course you or I don't, and will never, know the real truth.

It doesn't matter about the 'real truth'. Because people are starving in Africa.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 06:06 AM   #9
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Let us not convict people before a fair trial. My father had vascular dementia and as a consequence was prone to outbursts. He was old and not very mobile, but he was also quite large and strong. I don't care how old anybody is, using a wheelchair or walking frame increases upper body strength, so if the man indeed was armed with a knife he would be capable of doing damage to himself and others. If not, then the police involved might be guilty of using excessive force.

As a neuroscientist, the one thing that I wish the police would understand is that it is very likely that the taser will have varying effects on people. Of course most people will be stunned, but I would be willing to bet that a proportion of the population experience analgesia afterward from the release of endogenous opiates. Police seem to equate continued apparent resistance of a suspect after being tasered with determined, aggressive intent rather than considering the possibility that the suspect might be in abnormal neurological state in which they cannot feel pain (and are probably confused).
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 06:07 AM   #10
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It doesn't matter about the 'real truth'. Because people are starving in Africa.
Well at least you're finally focused on the bigger tragedy (when children never even have a chance), even if it's albeit facetious
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 06:12 AM   #11
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Let us not convict people before a fair trial. My father had vascular dementia and as a consequence was prone to outbursts. He was old and not very mobile, but he was also quite large and strong. I don't care how old anybody is, using a wheelchair or walking frame increases upper body strength, so if the man indeed was armed with a knife he would be capable of doing damage to himself and others. If not, then the police involved might be guilty of using excessive force.

As a neuroscientist, the one thing that I wish the police would understand is that it is very likely that the taser will have varying effects on people. Of course most people will be stunned, but I would be willing to bet that a proportion of the population experience analgesia afterward from the release of endogenous opiates. Police seem to equate continued apparent resistance of a suspect after being tasered with determined, aggressive intent rather than considering the possibility that the suspect might be in abnormal neurological state in which they cannot feel pain (and are probably confused).
There's going to be a trial?
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 08:46 AM   #12
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There's going to be a trial?
Can't say for sure given the information available, but it seems that the family of the deceased has a lawyer making statements to the press. Even if the police officers involved are not criminally charged, I'd be willing to bet a civil law suit is on its way.... In any case, we can't really judge the police to harshly until we know the facts. Just sayin'.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 09:06 AM   #13
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Can't say for sure given the information available, but it seems that the family of the deceased has a lawyer making statements to the press. Even if the police officers involved are not criminally charged, I'd be willing to bet a civil law suit is on its way.... In any case, we can't really judge the police to harshly until we know the facts. Just sayin'.
Of course you can't say for sure. You don't know anymore than the rest of us.

All we know is that the police killed a 95 year old man. I can judge them from my own capacity to handle a man of that age, which for a physically fit male in his early 30s, is rather high. Just sayin'.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 11:08 AM   #14
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I don't think this can really be considered a shooting. They were using a beanbag round to subdue him and he died of internal injuries. At 95 you aren't going to be able to put up with much.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 11:18 AM   #15
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I don't think this can really be considered a shooting. They were using a beanbag round to subdue him and he died of internal injuries. At 95 you aren't going to be able to put up with much.
I mean it was only a round of packed lead pellets fired from a gun. Basically a shotgun round, complete with casing, only much larger and the pellets are slaved in a bag to focus the impact.

But sure, lets arse around with the definition of shooting for a while. Technically! Technically!
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 11:42 AM   #16
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I don't care how old anybody is, using a wheelchair or walking frame increases upper body strength, so if the man indeed was armed with a knife he would be capable of doing damage to himself and others.
"Better kill him before he hurts himself."
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:28 PM   #17
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I mean it was only a round of packed lead pellets fired from a gun. Basically a shotgun round, complete with casing, only much larger and the pellets are slaved in a bag to focus the impact.

But sure, lets arse around with the definition of shooting for a while. Technically! Technically!
Actually the bag distributes the impact of the pellets, this way it doesn't penetrate.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:56 PM   #18
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Actually the bag distributes the impact of the pellets, this way it doesn't penetrate.

Actually what? The bag stops individual pellets from penetrating. What's profound or contradictory to what I wrote? The bag distributes the impact of the pellets across the area of the bag upon contact. The bag stops the individual pellets from scattering.

If you don't understand what focus means:

Typical pellet scatter

At 7 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 4 to 10 inches

At 15 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 45 feet

At 25 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 75 feet

Source - Law Enforcement Website & personal shotgun experience

Last edited by niuniu; Aug 6, 2013 at 03:15 PM. Reason: changed inches to feet
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 01:11 PM   #19
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I'm not sure why people are defending the police here. Its pretty obvious they screwed up.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 01:18 PM   #20
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Actually what? The bag stops individual pellets from penetrating. What's profound or contradictory to what I wrote? The bag distributes the impact of the pellets across the area of the bag upon contact. The bag stops the individual pellets from scattering.

If you don't understand what focus means:

Typical pellet scatter

At 7 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 4 to 10 inches

At 15 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 45 feet

At 25 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 75 inches
Because your post intended to make the beanbag round sound worse than what it actually is. Putting the pellets in a bag to "focus the impact" when in reality, the purpose of the bag is to distribute the impact while not allowing for penetration.

Id much rather get hit with a "focused" bean bag round than an "unfocused" bird shot round.

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Originally Posted by TedM View Post
I'm not sure why people are defending the police here. Its pretty obvious they screwed up.
If someone is in danger of harming themselves or others a bean bag round is just one weapon of many that police use to calm them down.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 01:28 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
Typical pellet scatter

At 7 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 4 to 10 inches

At 15 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 45 feet

At 25 yards
Pellets in bag - pellets do not exceed area of bag
Standard shotgun - 75 feet
I don't think the underlined spreads are correct.

15 yards is exactly 45 feet (3 ft / yard, so 3 * 15 = 45). If the spread at 7 yards is 4-10 inches, then at 15 yards is 45 ft, then the shot has somehow spread an additional 44 ft over the additional 8 yards. I find that highly unlikely for a spherical ballistic projectile (shotgun pellet). The angular change alone isn't even wrong.

Same for the 75 feet of spread at 25 yards. 25 yards = 75 feet, at the same 3 ft / yard.

I might believe 45 inches at 15 yards, or 75 inches at 25 yards, but I'd still like to see a citation.

A modicum of googling produced this, with a handy picture:
http://www.hunter-ed.com/montana/stu...1027_700048225
It gives a 40-inch spread at approx. 25 yards with no choke.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 01:30 PM   #22
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Because your post intended to make the beanbag round sound worse than what it actually is. Putting the pellets in a bag to "focus the impact" when in reality, the purpose of the bag is to distribute the impact while not allowing for penetration.

Id much rather get hit with a "focused" bean bag round than an "unfocused" bird shot round.

----------



If someone is in danger of harming themselves or others a bean bag round is just one weapon of many that police use to calm them down.

Don't judge me by your own standards. You came in here saying, 'oh I don't think shot is the right word tee hee'. Then you got all bent over the word 'focused', which was a perfectly adequate description as I have shown.

You came in here tryin' to downplay this. And you're still trying anything you can to take attention from the fact the police shot and killed a 95 year old.

I'm sure the man is happier he died slowly in agony rather than being killed instantly. Hosanna.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 02:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by waa1futs View Post
This thread wreaks [sic] of "I hate cops" biasness

I'm not even going into the situation and who was right or wrong because quite frankly no one on this forum was there at the time.
Who was right or wrong??!? Can you think of any, ANY instance where a 95 year old man needs to be subdued by a non-lethal round (short of him pointing a gun at you)?

That's like saying "Yeah, they tazed that 2-year-old, but you weren't there, so you can't make a judgement." Yes, I ****-ing can.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 02:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Because your post intended to make the beanbag round sound worse than what it actually is. Putting the pellets in a bag to "focus the impact" when in reality, the purpose of the bag is to distribute the impact while not allowing for penetration.
It's actually a bit of both.

When you consider the energy involved in the process, the bean bag is a method of transferring some of that energy onto a specific "focused" point.

It is only less focused when compared to a conventional bullet.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 03:33 PM   #25
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Who was right or wrong??!? Can you think of any, ANY instance where a 95 year old man needs to be subdued by a non-lethal round (short of him pointing a gun at you)?

That's like saying "Yeah, they tazed that 2-year-old, but you weren't there, so you can't make a judgement." Yes, I ****-ing can.
Two of my roommates worked at nursing homes when I was in college. So yes I can imagine a few situations where they need to be subdued. Some of them are extremely violent. WW2 vet could have went on a crazy warpath.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/20...h_assault.html

Quote:
The provincial Health ministry has released a scathing report ordering immediate action after concluding an east-end nursing home failed to protect its residents from each other when one was beaten to death and another brutally battered.
For more than 30 minutes, Peter Roy Brooks a 72-year-old resident with a documented history of aggression and behavioural concerns was allowed to roam the halls of The Wexford, a seven-storey, long-term care facility. He allegedly battered one woman before moving to another floor to kill another elderly woman, according to a ministry inspection dated May 22 that detailed the nightmarish ordeal.
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