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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:18 PM   #1
steve knight
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National Rifle Association Enemies List Now Includes Scientists, Zoos

as if we need any more reason not to listen to the NRA got to protect lead I mean it is a cool thing and all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3708593.html

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WASHINGTON -- In a move bizarrely reminiscent of its "anti-gun" enemies list, the National Rifle Association announced a new plan Friday to target scientists, environmental groups, government regulators and individuals who favor banning the use of lead in gun ammunition.

The targeted attacks are part of Hunt for Truth.org, a newly revamped effort by the nation's largest gun lobby to block attempts to regulate the use of lead in bullets. Regulations have been proposed in some states after studies have shown that millions of birds -- most notably the highly endangered California condor -- are dying of lead poisoning after ingesting lead bullet fragments.

The Center for Biological Diversity, an environmental group, estimates that hunters in the United States shoot more than 3,000 tons of lead into the outdoors every year, and that as many as 20 million birds die annually from lead poisoning.

To the NRA, however, the proposed bans on lead in bullets represent an "assault" on "traditional" hunting and on hunters' rights.

"Anti-lead ammunition groups will not rest until all lead ammunition, and ultimately hunting, is banned," the gun lobby claimed in a Friday press release.

The NRA singled out a law under consideration in California which would require hunters in the Golden State to use lead-free ammunition. Lead free bullets are widely available from top manufacturers, and have not been shown to function any differently than bullets containing the highly toxic element.

In order to rally its members to oppose the lead regulation, the NRA described a conspiracy theory involving crooked scientists, phony research, and a shadowy network of nonprofits, zoos and government agencies all conspiring to ban hunting.

According to the NRA, an "activist portion of the scientific community" has formed "a highly organized network of like minded researchers with an agenda to ban lead ammunition." In order to thwart this looming threat, "Hunt for Truth will expose the researchers associated with 'faulty science' critical of lead ammunition," the gun lobby says.

Scientists aren't the NRA's only new targets. Nonprofits like the San Diego Zoo and the California Condor Recovery Team are also on the enemies list. The NRA claims these groups "have considerable influence over many legislators and regulators," which they use to "capture" the regulatory agencies and bureaucrats responsible for lead ammunition restrictions.

"Under this capture theory, NGO’s, legislators, regulatory agencies and researchers work in concert to implement policies and regulations to ban traditional ammunition," the NRA alleges.

As of Monday, the NRA had yet to list any scientists it planned to target, but there were seven environmental and wildlife conservation groups on the site, including the National Resources Defense Council and the Center for Biological Diversity. Four government agencies were also singled out: the Arizona Game and Fish Department, the California Department of Fish and Game, the Los Angeles Zoo and the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

A spokesman for the NRA declined to comment on the listings.
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Last edited by SandboxGeneral; Aug 6, 2013 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Added quote tags
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:29 PM   #2
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Wow.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:32 PM   #3
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Ow... my brain.


So on top of climate change, these people believe that lead-poisoning is "junk science"? I want to make sure I understand their POV.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:45 PM   #4
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I'm thinking about that video iMike posted about Goldman Sachs etc buying up metals and the facilities to store them to drive up prices which led to billions in profits. Aluminium and copper were the two they had a racket with. I wonder if the same is going on with lead, and this is part of a move to get the public to fight against any legislative move to further restrict the use of lead.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by skottichan View Post
Ow... my brain.


So on top of climate change, these people believe that lead-poisoning is "junk science"? I want to make sure I understand their POV.
Why? It may screw your mind permanently. Starting to remind me of creationists and flat earthers.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 12:50 PM   #6
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Sounds like the people in charge of the NRA might be exhibiting symptoms of lead poisoning.


Gotta love low-intelligence morons who think their right to shoot high velocity projectiles at rocks and empty beer cans is more important than the well-being of our entire planet and the survival of all of it's species. Can't get more selfish than that.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 01:33 PM   #7
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Good damn scienctists and their logical reasoning and peer reviewed research. Facts have no place in this debate! FREEEDOM!
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 02:11 PM   #8
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Color me not surprised.

They're a lobbying group, and will do ANYTHING to get more guns purchased. ANYTHING.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 06:31 PM   #9
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 06:34 PM   #10
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Reason #638 to hate the NRA.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 07:18 PM   #11
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Time for the tin foil hat....


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Old Aug 6, 2013, 07:41 PM   #12
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I didn't know we were still using lead bullets. :/ How did they get banning lead bullets would be a ban on hunting, I don't get it? :/

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Old Aug 6, 2013, 07:51 PM   #13
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I didn't know we were still using lead bullets. :/ How did they get banning lead bullets would be a ban on hunting, I don't get it? :/
This is what I was wondering. Why does it matter if the bullets are full of lead or cheese? Does the lead give the bullets extra power because of weight or something? Or is this just a reason to get angry and scream about stuff?
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 07:58 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
This is what I was wondering. Why does it matter if the bullets are full of lead or cheese? Does the lead give the bullets extra power because of weight or something? Or is this just a reason to get angry and scream about stuff?
it is because it is a backdoor way of eliminating guns. I guess they leaned about this with the GOP and think everyone does it.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 08:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
This is what I was wondering. Why does it matter if the bullets are full of lead or cheese? Does the lead give the bullets extra power because of weight or something? Or is this just a reason to get angry and scream about stuff?
Lead, and sometimes depleted uranium, is indeed used because its density gives extra inertia to the bullet.

Of course Lead has many useful properties. Yet most industries have stopped using more than trace amounts of it because the dangers outweigh the benefits.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 08:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skottichan View Post
Ow... my brain.


So on top of climate change, these people believe that lead-poisoning is "junk science"? I want to make sure I understand their POV.
You have to remember that these are the same kind of people who take the bible literally. To them God controls the climate. God put animals on this earth for us to do with what we will. For this reason they cannot accept the notion that we could be permanently destroying these things.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 08:45 PM   #17
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I didn't know bullets still had lead in them. I'm all for banning its use here because the lead isn't collected and disposed of safely after usage. There just isn't a practical way of doing that.

However, I do not own a gun, nor do I ever want to, so this affects me from an environmental standpoint only. Are there any hunters on this forum who have used both lead and leadless bullets and care to offer their opinions on the recreational impact of such a ban?
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 09:59 PM   #18
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Are there any hunters on this forum who have used both lead and leadless bullets and care to offer their opinions on the recreational impact of such a ban?
Your question made me search a bit and I found this article regarding lead vs. lead-free bullets that had nothing to do with hunting. While it isn't a consequence I expected, I have to believe we have the wherewithal to figure it out.

Quote:
Ammunition manufacturers are in the process of removing lead from their bullets--a new development that experts say could threaten law enforcement's ability to arrest and convict criminals.

"This is a potential game changer," predicts Michael Knox, a seasoned crime scene investigator. Knox is based in Jacksonville, but consults on cases nationwide, including the Trayvon Martin killing in Sanford.

Knox said he believes the absence of "lead" from bullets and "lead residue" from crime scenes will threaten public safety.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Exp...7/-/index.html
It really sounds like a bit of b.s. to me. Science is constantly having to create new ways to assess and measure new materials. Someone surely can figure this stuff out.

Quote:
Knox said investigators have no idea how lead-free bullets will react when fired. There is little acceptable science because lead free bullets are so new; certainly nothing any court would rule admissible -- yet.

Sigman and his team are analyzing the already known lead-free bullets available to determine what they're made of. They have already made one vital discovery; Ammunition makers are not replacing lead with another universal material.

"Each manufacturer is using their own combination of metals or materials or alloys for that particular bullet," says Knox. "And they're not sharing that information. It's proprietary information like Coca Cola doesn't share its receipt for its beverages."
This actually sounds like an opportunity to me. Once you determine the unique "signature" of a bullet you could use that to pinpoint or exclude a suspect. In the end, you don't halt progress because it requires you to change or advance your scientific methods. You change your methods. I'd prefer a little less hand-wringing and a little more "can-do" attitude.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 10:15 PM   #19
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This actually sounds like an opportunity to me. Once you determine the unique "signature" of a bullet you could use that to pinpoint or exclude a suspect. In the end, you don't halt progress because it requires you to change or advance your scientific methods. You change your methods. I'd prefer a little less hand-wringing and a little more "can-do" attitude.
I can see the NRA going after that too.
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Old Aug 6, 2013, 11:02 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mentaluproar View Post
I didn't know bullets still had lead in them. I'm all for banning its use here because the lead isn't collected and disposed of safely after usage. There just isn't a practical way of doing that.

However, I do not own a gun, nor do I ever want to, so this affects me from an environmental standpoint only. Are there any hunters on this forum who have used both lead and leadless bullets and care to offer their opinions on the recreational impact of such a ban?
Phasing out lead for hunting shouldn't be news to anyone. Lead shot has been banned for all hunting of migratory birds (e.g. ducks, geese) in the U.S. since 1991.

http://www.fws.gov/hunting/whatres.html

Some combination of {tungsten, iron, copper, nickel, tin, bismuth} is typically used to make shot instead of lead.

http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases...3B0D75A0A06180

I don't think there is much momentum yet to ban lead in all uses, but, people should be aware that it is deadly to birds, and therefore, is an issue in specific areas, such as condor territory, where hunting with lead bullets is banned.

One alternative to lead for many uses is bismuth. Bullets may be made of a tin/bismuth alloy. The main disadvantage is that bismuth is that it is relatively expensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismuth

(Lead is also quite toxic to people, by the way, not just birds.)
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Old Aug 7, 2013, 01:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by mentaluproar View Post
I didn't know bullets still had lead in them. I'm all for banning its use here because the lead isn't collected and disposed of safely after usage. There just isn't a practical way of doing that.

However, I do not own a gun, nor do I ever want to, so this affects me from an environmental standpoint only. Are there any hunters on this forum who have used both lead and leadless bullets and care to offer their opinions on the recreational impact of such a ban?
When you are talking about recreational shooting, all those bullets come to rest somewhere and their may or may not be an environmental impact if the area isn't kept clean. A properly managed range that is KEPT CLEAN will have no negative impact. slob shooters in open areas that leaver trash do more harm than lead bullets. Hunting on the other hand is a different situation. If I shoot ONE ROUND at a deer then collect my animal, there is literally no environmental impact. more often than not, if the hunter makes a wise projectile choice, and proper shot placement the bullet may not come out the other side. every wild pig I have killed was taken with a 175 grain berger VLD (which is a lead core bullet) fired from a rifle chambered in .308 winchester. Every one of those pigs dropped where they stood or only ran a few yards. I never had an exit wound, and recovered the mangled bullet when we processed the meat. no negative impact on the environment
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Old Aug 7, 2013, 01:02 AM   #22
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Okay lets make a trade.

Okay so in CA you can't use steel core ammo because the gun gabber-nuts claim it is armor piercing and now you can't have lead because it is bad for the environment?!?!

If these gun gabber-nuts want to ban bullets with lead in them, then I say legalize machine guns as non-nfa items again and we will live with the lead ammo ban.
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Old Aug 7, 2013, 01:05 AM   #23
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Okay lets make a trade.

Okay so in CA you can't use steel core ammo because the gun gabber-nuts claim it is armor piercing and now you can't have lead because it is bad for the environment?!?!

If these gun gabber-nuts want to ban bullets with lead in them, then I say legalize machine guns as non-nfa items again and we will live with the lead ammo ban.
A serious and well-thought argument.
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Old Aug 7, 2013, 03:13 AM   #24
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Every one of those pigs dropped where they stood or only ran a few yards. I never had an exit wound,
Most people aren't as good at shooting as you are .

I'd have a lot more sympathy if other non-lead bullets weren't widely available. Complaining about this is like complaining about the demise of leaded petrol.
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Old Aug 7, 2013, 04:16 AM   #25
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If I shoot ONE ROUND at a deer then collect my animal, there is literally no environmental impact.
Not even remotely "literally".
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