Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Aug 8, 2013, 12:36 PM   #1
Huntn
macrumors 604
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Firefighter's family fights for full death benefits

If you give your life in service to a community, I'd think they'd be more willing to offer something to your family. Prescott to victim's family: Them's the breaks!

Firefighter's family fights for full death benefits

Quote:
PHOENIX The family of a firefighter killed with 18 colleagues while battling a summer wildfire is waging a campaign urging the city of Prescott, Ariz., to provide his survivors with full health and pension benefits.

The city, which employed Andrew Ashcraft and other members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, says Ashcraft and 12 others who died were seasonal employees, leaving their survivors ineligible for benefits that would go to a full-time employee.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 01:16 PM   #2
filmbuff
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Why would the families be entitled to full benefits if the firefighters weren't full time employees? It's a horrible tragedy but just because someone dies doesn't mean you get lifetime benefits from the government.

Alright, flame away.
filmbuff is offline   9 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 02:31 PM   #3
ucfgrad93
macrumors G5
 
ucfgrad93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Colorado
It is a tragedy, but it isn't like they are getting nothing. From the linked article in the OP:

Quote:
All families are to receive a one-time payment of $328,613 and various other financial and tuition benefits.

But the families of firefighters who were not categorized as full time are not eligible for three benefits that will go to survivors of the six full-time firefighters who died: health insurance, a lump-sum life-insurance payment and monthly lifetime survivor benefits.

The lifetime survivor benefits are paid out by the Public Safety Personnel Retirement System, which Ashcraft did not pay into, city officials said.
I would be interested to see what the "various other financial and tuition benefits" are.
ucfgrad93 is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 05:24 PM   #4
Erendiox
macrumors 6502a
 
Erendiox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Brooklyn NY
Send a message via AIM to Erendiox
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmbuff View Post
Why would the families be entitled to full benefits if the firefighters weren't full time employees? It's a horrible tragedy but just because someone dies doesn't mean you get lifetime benefits from the government.

Alright, flame away.
I was about to agree with you, but after looking at the article it looks like the firefighter in question was nearly full time and only worked part time for a portion of the year. It looks like the family is basically missing out because of a technicality.
__________________
Eighthinch Pictures
Erendiox is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 05:44 PM   #5
Huntn
Thread Starter
macrumors 604
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfgrad93 View Post
It is a tragedy, but it isn't like they are getting nothing. From the linked article in the OP:



I would be interested to see what the "various other financial and tuition benefits" are.
My understanding, but I could be wrong, that is a one time death benefit, based on life insurance. My point is that if you give you life in service to your community, the city should be able to cover your families medical insurance, just my opinion.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 05:47 PM   #6
ucfgrad93
macrumors G5
 
ucfgrad93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Colorado
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
My understanding, but I could be wrong, that is a one time death benefit, based on life insurance. My point is that if you give you life in service to your community, the city should be able to cover your families medical insurance, just my opinion.
While I agree with you, the family is getting some compensation. At least $328k and some other unnamed benefits which could result in thousands more to the family.
ucfgrad93 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 06:06 PM   #7
firedept
macrumors Demi-God
 
firedept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Somewhere!
This is ridiculous. As a firefighter for several years I know what they are going through. The city where I was working was just the same. As a part-time employee, I only had life insurance and no other benefits that the full-time had.

Yet I did the exact same work as them. Nothing against the full-time here, it was the city that determined what we got. Union could do nothing for us. Yet us part-time put ours lives on the line the same as anyone full-time who worked at our hall. The city refused to recognize that.

It is an unfortunate fact. But sure sounds the same as we were going through. Our chief was 100% behind us, but had no luck in fighting the politics. So our chief took the hall full-time staff only. Ended up costing the city more in the end. Maybe the widow should remind the Mayor who voted them in or run for Mayor in the next elections.

Shame that people should have to even begin to fight something like these policies. It is BS. They were all heroes in my eyes and deserve the respect. Heaven forbid should a Councillor or Mayor have to give up a raise of salary so staff can be paid properly.

You can roast me if you want, but I have been there and know it is all about politics and money.
__________________
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt!
firedept is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8, 2013, 07:41 PM   #8
malman89
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Michigan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucfgrad93 View Post
It is a tragedy, but it isn't like they are getting nothing. From the linked article in the OP:



I would be interested to see what the "various other financial and tuition benefits" are.
This seems sufficient for part time employees. They knew what they were getting into. They knew they were part time employees. If they wanted security, they should have kept looking for a full time job, which I know is incredibly hard as a fire fighter these days, as my buddy is a part time fire fighter and part time EMT (combined he easily works 60 hour weeks usually).

Insurance pay outs typically aren't taxed, so assuming their husbands made $35k/year in their part time jobs, that would be 9.37 years. That's not a bad length of time - even for families - to adjust/transition their life styles and move on.
__________________
Lenovo IdeaPad Z510 running Windows 8.1
Motorola Moto G LTE running Android 4.4.4
Old Machine: Late 2006 Model - 13.3" MacBook, 2 GHz C2D, 4 (3.3) GB RAM, 500 GB 7200rpm HD running OS X 10.6.8
malman89 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 09:19 AM   #9
velocityg4
macrumors 68040
 
velocityg4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Georgia
Putting aside whether or not her husband should have rated as full time status.

$328,000 is a lot for benefits depending on if they are taxable and if that is after tax. If she gets the full amount there are many parts of the country where that would be plenty to buy a nice little house paid in full along with two more houses for rentals. Those houses could bring in an income of $1,500 per month. She should also be expecting survivors benefits from Social Security for her and her children. For her while any child is under 16 and for her children under 18.

This is plenty for them to live off of. It can also provide whatever support she needs while training for a part time or full time job.

While the death of her husband is tragic. It doesn't mean that the community has to provide her with comfortable income for the rest of her life. She's already been given more than ample means to cushion her and her family while she gets whatever education and entry level jobs out of the way to provide for them comfortably.

They also don't specify what those other benefits are nor how they compare to full time.
__________________
Quadra 650 040 33MHz 72MB RAM, 2GB HD, 2x CD
Macbook C2D 2.0Ghz; 3GB RAM, 500GB HD
Home Made i5 4.0Ghz, GeForce 560 Ti, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD RAID 0, 3TB HD RAID 0 in a G5 Case.
velocityg4 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 09:38 AM   #10
GermanyChris
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Here
We've now monetized the value of a firefighters life

Great
GermanyChris is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 09:59 AM   #11
rhett7660
macrumors G3
 
rhett7660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sunny, Southern California
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
We've now monetized the value of a firefighters life

Great
Can't that be said about any person who is a first responder?

Plain and simple they were part time. They were not full time and they knew the benefits, or lack of, when they signed on.
__________________
"It's quite an experience to hold the hand of someone as they move from living to dead."
"Times are looking grim these days, holding on to everything, it's hard to draw the line"
rhett7660 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 10:13 AM   #12
GermanyChris
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhett7660 View Post
Can't that be said about any person who is a first responder?

Plain and simple they were part time. They were not full time and they knew the benefits, or lack of, when they signed on.
What is the value of their life?

If the guy had died off duty I wouldn't have an issue, but he didn't part time/full time matter not at all when you're working to save others.
GermanyChris is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 11:27 AM   #13
rhett7660
macrumors G3
 
rhett7660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sunny, Southern California
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
What is the value of their life?

If the guy had died off duty I wouldn't have an issue, but he didn't part time/full time matter not at all when you're working to save others.
It does matter if they are part time or full time. Especially the contracts they sign etc. They chose to do so. They were not forced to sign up. They chose to be part time, in hopes of becoming full time. They knew the risks.

I am not being cold, but they knew what they were doing. They knew the risks associated to what they were doing.
__________________
"It's quite an experience to hold the hand of someone as they move from living to dead."
"Times are looking grim these days, holding on to everything, it's hard to draw the line"
rhett7660 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 12:46 PM   #14
MacNut
macrumors P6
 
MacNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
We've now monetized the value of a firefighters life

Great
A lot of firefighters are volunteers and don't get much in compensation. Sure they have to get the same training as full time union members but they don't get the same pay for the same risks.
__________________
The thoughts in my head are rated TV-MA. Viewer discretion is advised.
Now batting, Number 2 Derek Jeter, Number 2
MacNut is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 12:51 PM   #15
GermanyChris
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
A lot of firefighters are volunteers and don't get much in compensation. Sure they have to get the same training as full time union members but they don't get the same pay for the same risks.
My Father-n-Law was a volunteer fire fighter has been his entire adult life. I don't know what the rule are here for that so I can't comment. This strikes me as distasteful, and it always will no matter the whether it's legal or just.
GermanyChris is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 01:01 PM   #16
MacNut
macrumors P6
 
MacNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
My Father-n-Law was a volunteer fire fighter has been his entire adult life. I don't know what the rule are here for that so I can't comment. This strikes me as distasteful, and it always will no matter the whether it's legal or just.
A lot of smaller towns can't afford to pay union wages so they have volunteer members. I don't know how towns would be able to survive with paid members. My town has 2 departments that goes way back when there were 9 districts. The professional dept. that is paid by the town and covers full fire and medical service and a volunteer service in the northern area and relies on the town for medics. They both fight the same just one is paid the other isn't. Part of it is money savings the other is tradition. They both have the same risks but only one gets full pay.
__________________
The thoughts in my head are rated TV-MA. Viewer discretion is advised.
Now batting, Number 2 Derek Jeter, Number 2
MacNut is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 01:21 PM   #17
GermanyChris
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
A lot of smaller towns can't afford to pay union wages so they have volunteer members. I don't know how towns would be able to survive with paid members. My town has 2 departments that goes way back when there were 9 districts. The professional dept. that is paid by the town and covers full fire and medical service and a volunteer service in the northern area and relies on the town for medics. They both fight the same just one is paid the other isn't. Part of it is money savings the other is tradition. They both have the same risks but only one gets full pay.
And if the volunteer is killed in the line of duty, there is no pension? It would seem that if a volunteer got killed he/she would receive benefits as if he was a paid fire fighter.

As a soldier my life insurance was null and void if I was killed down range, as a civilian the same exemption exists, in essence if I am in an area where hostile fire pay is paid my insurance will not cover my death. It would seem that the same type of thing would apply to fire fighters, the worse part is I don't go into areas with bad guys too much but fire fighters do every day. If the same rules that apply to me applies to volunteer fire fighters a widow could be left with nothing but memories and bills.

I find it kinda sad that a country as big as ours can give a young lady 300K and call it good.
GermanyChris is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 01:29 PM   #18
malman89
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Michigan
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
And if the volunteer is killed in the line of duty, there is no pension? It would seem that if a volunteer got killed he/she would receive benefits as if he was a paid fire fighter.
I would guess/hope the volunteer firefighter gets a Life/Accidental Death & Dismemberment (AD&D) policy covered by their city/township, but probably something small like $20-50k, which just costs the township a few dollars per month.

I wouldn't expect much more - if anything - in terms of coverage for a volunteer firefighter, but perhaps I'm wrong. I don't know to be honest.

Edit: Looks like volunteer firefighters can get up to 20% benefits of a full time firefighter, per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunte...#United_States
__________________
Lenovo IdeaPad Z510 running Windows 8.1
Motorola Moto G LTE running Android 4.4.4
Old Machine: Late 2006 Model - 13.3" MacBook, 2 GHz C2D, 4 (3.3) GB RAM, 500 GB 7200rpm HD running OS X 10.6.8
malman89 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 06:28 PM   #19
lannister80
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicagoland
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhett7660 View Post
Can't that be said about any person who is a first responder?

Plain and simple they were part time. They were not full time and they knew the benefits, or lack of, when they signed on.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/bu...anted=all&_r=0

Anywhere between $6M and $9.1M per life.
__________________
Early 2008 Mac Pro, 8x2.8GHz, 3.25TB, 18GB RAM
UnRAID NAS, 9TB storage, 3TB parity, 400GB cache
lannister80 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2013, 07:05 PM   #20
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Unless HR didn't disclose their benefits to them I don't see how this is even up for discussion.
__________________
--2.6 C2Q 4gb DDR3 GTX 260-Win 7--
--2.0 CE Macbook Alum-Leopard--
Zombie Acorn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13, 2013, 06:17 PM   #21
aerok
macrumors 65816
 
aerok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Jeez so many heartless people here... What is this world turning to...
__________________
Kangmlee Photography Blog
Macbook Pro 13 Mid-2009 - Macbook Pro Retina 15 Mid 2014) - iPhone 5S - iPad Air
aerok is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13, 2013, 08:58 PM   #22
LIVEFRMNYC
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chalk this up for the B.S bureaucrats that only look at numbers and nothings else.

I bet some of those part time firefighters were only under 2 hours of what's required for full time. This is what they do across all fields of employment just to get over from paying what's deserved.

They need to make some type of law that requires a REAL gap from part time to full time, instead of cutting hours just short of full time requirement.
LIVEFRMNYC is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13, 2013, 09:56 PM   #23
malman89
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Michigan
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIVEFRMNYC View Post
Chalk this up for the B.S bureaucrats that only look at numbers and nothings else.

I bet some of those part time firefighters were only under 2 hours of what's required for full time. This is what they do across all fields of employment just to get over from paying what's deserved.

They need to make some type of law that requires a REAL gap from part time to full time, instead of cutting hours just short of full time requirement.
There is a law on the books - the Affordable Care Act. My friend is a part time firefighter and he is only supposed to average 29 hours/week because the department does not want to be held liable for full time benefits or fines for non-compliance. It started earlier this year.

It creates quite a problem with his training and shifts - not even including calls.
__________________
Lenovo IdeaPad Z510 running Windows 8.1
Motorola Moto G LTE running Android 4.4.4
Old Machine: Late 2006 Model - 13.3" MacBook, 2 GHz C2D, 4 (3.3) GB RAM, 500 GB 7200rpm HD running OS X 10.6.8
malman89 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13, 2013, 10:07 PM   #24
LIVEFRMNYC
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by malman89 View Post
There is a law on the books - the Affordable Care Act. My friend is a part time firefighter and he is only supposed to average 29 hours/week because the department does not want to be held liable for full time benefits or fines for non-compliance. It started earlier this year.

It creates quite a problem with his training and shifts - not even including calls.
Seems like it was written in a way of one size fits all, which is another major problem. They should allow certain occupations to go over hours if it's training and if duty comes first without penalizing. Everyone knows the some occupations are unique vs the standard 8 hr shift.

I'm just against the obvious short changing and still requiring almost same amount of work and time.
LIVEFRMNYC is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Aug 14, 2013, 01:17 AM   #25
GermanyChris
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by malman89 View Post
There is a law on the books - the Affordable Care Act. My friend is a part time firefighter and he is only supposed to average 29 hours/week because the department does not want to be held liable for full time benefits or fines for non-compliance. It started earlier this year.

It creates quite a problem with his training and shifts - not even including calls.
This stuff happened before the affordable care act.
GermanyChris is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cop arrests on-duty Firefighter for doing his job SoAnyway Politics, Religion, Social Issues 24 Feb 10, 2014 10:01 PM
Advice: The benefits of Full Frame? Puckman Digital Photography 42 Sep 3, 2013 04:25 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC