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Old Aug 21, 2013, 07:12 AM   #1
rdowns
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National Database of Gun Owners - 2A Patriot Alert!

This is quite disturbing. We all know that expanding background checks for gun purchases is a terrible thing that can only lead to a national database of gun owners and will lead to confiscation. Not to mention it's expensive, can be selectively enforced and will be abused. We also know that Chinese and other foreign hackers could access this information.

We need to rise up and protect our 2A rights. Not only are they maintaining a database of gun owners, but also potential gun owners. It's not like the NSA doesn't have access to this. This is just unconscionable, not to mention hypocritical and kind of funny.


How The NRA Built A Massive Secret Database Of Gun Owners


Quote:
WASHINGTON — The National Rifle Association has rallied gun-owners — and raised tens of millions of dollars — campaigning against the threat of a national database of firearms or their owners.

But in fact, the sort of vast, secret database the NRA often warns of already exists, despite having been assembled largely without the knowledge or consent of gun owners. It is housed in the Virginia offices of the NRA itself. The country’s largest privately held database of current, former, and prospective gun owners is one of the powerful lobby’s secret weapons, expanding its influence well beyond its estimated 3 million members and bolstering its political supremacy.

That database has been built through years of acquiring gun permit registration lists from state and county offices, gathering names of new owners from the thousands of gun-safety classes taught by NRA-certified instructors and by buying lists of attendees of gun shows, subscribers to gun magazines and more, BuzzFeed has learned.

I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 08:21 AM   #2
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Just like with any organization or company you interact with they store information about you. Big deal. If the information they obtain is freely available what is the problem? Oh it is the NRA and not someone like Amazon who tracks all your purchases.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 08:21 AM   #3
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You need a license to drive a car, which is registered at the DMV... you **** up with your car one time too many and you have the license suspended and possibly your car towed until further notice. No problem, it's the law and for your own and everyone else's protection.

However, the idea of acquiring a license to operate a gun (a weapon no less) and having it registered in the case it may have been potentially used in a crime appears to be far beyond the comprehension of a 2A patriot.

Where... is the logic?
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 08:55 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Just like with any organization or company you interact with they store information about you. Big deal. If the information they obtain is freely available what is the problem? Oh it is the NRA and not someone like Amazon who tracks all your purchases.
Yet we hear absolute screaming and infant-style tantrums if there's any mention of the government keeping such a database. But if the NRA keeps it...eh, big deal? Interesting.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 09:00 AM   #5
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Now all someone has to do is plant the story that is not a NRA list, but a NSA list.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 09:17 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
Yet we hear absolute screaming and infant-style tantrums if there's any mention of the government keeping such a database. But if the NRA keeps it...eh, big deal? Interesting.
I was going to say the same thing..
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 09:30 AM   #7
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Keeping track of who has possession of firearms? I don't see that as a bad thing.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 09:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
Just like with any organization or company you interact with they store information about you. Big deal. If the information they obtain is freely available what is the problem? Oh it is the NRA and not someone like Amazon who tracks all your purchases.

I should have known the sarcasm would be a bit much for the NRA apologists. I have no problem with companies I do business with keeping track of what I buy, when I buy etc. I have no problem with the NRA or BATF keeping a list of gun owners.

I have a problem with the hypocrisy of the NRA. I think it's pretty ****ed up that they are tracking people who are not members of their cult.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 11:50 AM   #9
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The NRA neither has nor claims the legal right to use violence to force me to do things that I would not choose to do voluntarily. Therefore a national gun database in their hands poses little to no threat to me. The same cannot be said of the federal government.

>
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 11:55 AM   #10
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The NRA doesn't care one bit about your privacy so this is no surprise. However, I don't think this will lead to an "official" database of gun owners that the public can access. If such a thing were seriously discussed, I'd be against it--even though I think gun violence is a major problem in this country.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 12:05 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
The NRA neither has nor claims the legal right to use violence to force me to do things that I would not choose to do voluntarily.
They dont need it. They've been successfully manipulating people like you for their benefit for years.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 02:09 PM   #12
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The NRA is probably just a very clever front created by the UN World Government to gather the required information before they come to round up all the unregulated militias. You have been warned.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 04:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Andeavor View Post
However, the idea of acquiring a license to operate a gun (a weapon no less) and having it registered in the case it may have been potentially used in a crime appears to be far beyond the comprehension of a 2A patriot.

Where... is the logic?
Oh it's logic you're seeking? By your logic, everybody should have their fingerprints, DNA and mugshot registered in case they're implicated in a crime.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 04:36 PM   #14
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Oh it's logic you're seeking? By your logic, everybody should have their fingerprints, DNA and mugshot registered in case they're implicated in a crime.
It's only a matter of time. A couple more terrorist attacks on US soil is all it'll take.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 05:12 PM   #15
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Oh it's logic you're seeking? By your logic, everybody should have their fingerprints, DNA and mugshot registered in case they're implicated in a crime.
Ain't they already doing that? They got prints off of my kids right after they were born. The probably have a DNA from the blood sample the doctor took during the first check post hospital check up. Got a driver license? Gub'ment issued photo ID? Passport? School ID? Yar, they your mugshot already.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 05:46 PM   #16
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Oh it's logic you're seeking? By your logic, everybody should have their fingerprints, DNA and mugshot registered in case they're implicated in a crime.
You mean like when the Supreme court ruled a few months ago that police are now legally allowed to take your DNA sample just like they fingerprint you when you get arrested?
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 07:02 PM   #17
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People worry so much about their privacy/rights, but eat, drink and smoke themselves to death.

Government ---- We need your information.
Citizen ---- **** OFF!!!!!

Bank ---- We need your information and a ton of signatures for this loan.
Citizen ----- OK!!! Signs while not giving a **** about fine print.

Government ---- We are watching you!!!
Citizen ---- Hell No!!! I have rights!!! I will fight this.

Credit Bureaus(which are for profit and privately owned) ----- We are watching you.
Citizen ---- Bends over and asks to be gentle.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 07:36 PM   #18
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It's only a matter of time. A couple more terrorist attacks on US soil is all it'll take.
But can we agree it'll be a bad thing to force us to surrender our rights?
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 01:27 AM   #19
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Oh it's logic you're seeking? By your logic, everybody should have their fingerprints, DNA and mugshot registered in case they're implicated in a crime.
As mentioned before, if you have an ID or passport of any kind, they already have all of that on file. The only issue here would be how they use it.
As a non-American, when I travel into the US, I have to show my fingerprint as well.

Also, think about how much easier their work gets when they can simply trace DNA on the crime scene, match it with their local database and rule out dozens of innocent people because their DNA doesn't match. Is it 100% fool proof? No, but it heavily cuts down the suspect list and lets them focus more on the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
But can we agree it'll be a bad thing to force us to surrender our rights?
What rights are surrendered? They just have you on file like your town hall has when you moved into town, the DMV after you passed or renewed your driver's license and the newspaper you've subscribed to.
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 01:37 AM   #20
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They just have you on file like your town hall has when you moved into town, the DMV after you passed or renewed your driver's license and the newspaper you've subscribed to.
American towns don't have a gemeindehaus in the sense that Germans do and probably the Swiss do.
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 02:03 AM   #21
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 03:05 AM   #22
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You need a license to drive a car, which is registered at the DMV... you **** up with your car one time too many and you have the license suspended and possibly your car towed until further notice. No problem, it's the law and for your own and everyone else's protection.

However, the idea of acquiring a license to operate a gun (a weapon no less) and having it registered in the case it may have been potentially used in a crime appears to be far beyond the comprehension of a 2A patriot.

Where... is the logic?
If you are talking about repressive gun laws like what Washington DC or Chicago have, then a lot like licensing free speech or religion depending on the degree.

Gun ownership and transactions are not the wild, wild west. I used to work in the industry and we sold tens-of-thousands of guns. Not one of those guns were released until the background investigation was completed and we got approval from the BATF and/or the BATF and State of Maryland. Not 1. And we weren't the exception.

There are indeed some loopholes and they should be closed, but these are generally secondary person-to-person sales (quite a few states have supplemental laws regarding these). In the US, the background check you noted is the NICS check which performs on-spot background investigations done by the BATF (govt agency that oversees firearms). The belief that gun shows are places where millions of sales just go through is not accurate. Many shows do not allow people to sell there and dealers are not going to be releasing guns without a NICS if it is anything other than a 100+ year old black powder gun (they aren't regulated). A FFL will call in a NICS check for all transactions they do and will not release firearms until the BATF provides a review disposition. More or less, the person completes BATF-4473, they provide ID documentation, the FFL calls the BATF and gives them info on the application, and the BATF provides a NICS number and says whether the firearm can be released, the firearm is to be held pending further investigation, or the transaction is disapproved and the gun cannot be released. Many states have supplemental investigations. If there was no system for registration, it would be impossible to provide numeric figures on guns sold in the US.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html

One of the biggest issues is that this is done with a hand-written form and called in via the phone. It is slow, and risks spelling errors. New systems are in development which are using tablets and laptops to complete background investigations which allows the BATF to not have to deal with a voiced or hand printed name they may not spell correctly. This will benefit quite a few people and potentially help fight crime and recover stolen weapons/exonerate innocent individuals. It's a slow process tho, because this is a big network.

As to p2p secondary sales, rules for these are in the process of changing. They are changing in the direction in which secondary handgun and 'assault' gun sales will require a NICS and any mandatory waiting as per the state...other rifles, shotguns, and long guns can be sold without a NICS. But even then, a lot of owners selling/buying will still do a NICS through a dealer given that NICS is what will show the gun has changed hands if it was used in a crime. Honestly they should just do the NICS on all of the sales regardless of who is selling it or type...it would potentially reduce death rates, it will make gun control advocates happier, and it will have minimal affect on law-abiding pro-gun owners.
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 03:10 AM   #23
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Ermahgerd!!

Ermahgerd, they have a mailing list!!!!

Liberal media fail...

Quote: "That database has been built through years of acquiring gun permit registration lists from state and county offices, gathering names of new owners from the thousands of gun safety classes taught by NRA-certified instructors and by buying lists of attendees of gun shows, subscribers to gun magazines, and more, BuzzFeed has learned."

1. Many states don't require permits to buy a firearm.
2. Just because you take a safety class doesn't mean you own a firearm.
3. Not all gun shows are NRA sponsored and you don't sign in when you attend a gun show.
4. Well crap, that means every waiting room with an NRA magazine in it is one the list!!! Not to mention many people have long sold their guns, moved or died that are on that list

So yes the NRA maintains a mailing list of gun owners. Last time I checked the NRA wasn't trying to take anyones 2A right away.
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 03:45 AM   #24
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There is nothing to be said against a well functioning bureaucracy that can keep track of certain basic data about it's citizens. A lot of government business in Germany is easier, speedier and cheaper than anything I ever experienced in the US. There is a big difference between maintaining a central database for tracking basic citizen information for purposes such as passports, marriage, tax, birth, death and services than sticking your nose into people's phone calls, mail and eMail and bugging their houses.
I don't have an issue with the way it works here, it's just the Europeans tend to think the American city hall is the same.

Yes dealing with bureaucracy is easier here than in most local governments institutions I've experienced in the States. Here if you don't have the paperwork they'll tell you where to get it give you a map if necessary tell you how much it'll cost if anything let you submit partials while you finalize the paperwork i.e. their friendly. The thing I don't like about paperwork here is everything is mailed and handled by hand.
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Old Aug 22, 2013, 07:20 AM   #25
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