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Old Sep 26, 2013, 04:35 PM   #1
G51989
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Libertarians and rescue and emergency services.

So, I have heard from people I know in my non internet life, as well as people on this website, that taxes should be voluntary only. And if you don't want to pay tax, you should not have to.

Great.

However, should those who not pay taxes be refused on public roads, airports, and seaports and denied care at any hospital that gets public funding? Should their be a database that allows police to remove these people from public property and a database that tells 911 dispatch to refuse them service?

Now I am aware that lots of towns have privately funded Fire Departments, but in big cities, the city more often than not runs the fire department.

So,



And should that extent to rescue services as well? The non tax payer could just wait for a true American private company to come recuse him/her?





These do not reflect my actual opinions, its just a question. Do you think that people who would refuse to pay taxes should be denied publicly funded anything? This means police protection, fire protection in big cities, rescue via FEMA or the coast guard or national guard, being able to drive on publicly funded roads? Or being allowed inside properties that are typically subsided by taxes? Like State University or Stadiums?

As far as I can tell, from a Libertarian viewpoint, those who don't pay dont get to play. So this system would seem fairest.

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Old Sep 26, 2013, 06:24 PM   #2
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 07:36 PM   #3
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The problem I have with taxes (I have lived in different countries (3)) is there is no Truth in taxes. You think the road toll but really the toll goes to the State General Fund for other programs , not to improve the road! I support the Truth in Taxes stance and most tax payers should do the same.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 07:48 PM   #4
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I honestly don't take Libertarians seriously just like I don't take Conservatives seriously. Both have an extremely flawed viewpoint that boils down to "I got mine but screw everyone else unless I need something."

Pretty much all of my Lib friends think anarchy is a valid form of government, they think that there should be no social programs (even though they're employed on the state end of such programs), and that common sense things like safety features in vehicles are "government intrusion.".

It's hard to take people like that seriously.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 07:51 PM   #5
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... should those who not pay taxes be refused on public roads, airports, and seaports and denied care at any hospital that gets public funding?
How would they be identified as non-taxpayers?

Identification and enforcement sounds like a nightmare to me.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:26 PM   #6
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How would they be identified as non-taxpayers?

Identification and enforcement sounds like a nightmare to me.
This brings to mind something interesting I found myself semi-involved in a long time ago. It's not directly related to what we're talking about here, but it's close enough I guess I could bring it into the discussion.

I've got this old friend. We've been buddies since the 4th grade. Smart guy, comes from a smart family. Though they're the type of smart that tends towards being a little overindulgent about upholding and living by certain ideals. I'm sure you all know the type. They've got a very technical mindset, and tend to think of everything in blacks and whites. They're hands on about everything they do, love the idea of being completely self sufficient, and almost always end up being libertarian.

One day, I guess it was around '98 or so, comes up to me to tell me about this program that involves something called debtors. Or deaders. I'm not sure which. He goes on about how income taxes aren't constitutionally legal, and how the government found a loophole by assigning everyone a surrogate at birth, which they charge income taxes to. Lines of credit, social security, stuff like that, it's all represented by your debtor, not you directly. You can tell by looking at certain thing attached to you, like bank and credit cards. If your name is in all caps, it's your debtor.

He also went into things like being sued, common law, and....blah. I usually start tuning out when he goes into the really outlandish conspiracy theory stuff.

But here's where it gets interesting. He talks about a government program that allows you to buy back your debtor from the government. It's apparently a long, convoluted process to do so, but it is doable. If you don't cross your T's and dot your lower cased I's, you can potentially lose your citizenship. Do it right, and you're relieved of your civic duty to pay income taxes.

...and here's where it gets weird. One day, totally out of the blue, I'm called to act as a 3rd party witness to a signing of a series of documents. I drive out to town, to a law office, and find a few lawyers, a notary, and a judge all waiting for me. It goes without saying I found the whole thing strange. I watch him sign the documents, everyone shakes hands, and we all walk out the door. I ask him what all that was about, and he says...

"Oh, I bought back my debtor".

Now I never knew exactly what went down that day, but he's not the type to lie or embellish the truth about things. Once again, he's a very black and white, technical sorta person.

So apparently, if there's a bit of truth to this argument, people who don't pay income taxes walk around using the same services as everyone else. They're denied entry into certain government programs, but there's nothing to identify them from anyone else.

...though I'd love to know what I acted as witness to. I'll see something that reminds me of it, and it'll make me curious yet again. Yet I haven't been able to find a single thing online about it. Either my leg was pulled to the point of breaking, or there are some weird subbasements of the law few of us are aware of.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:34 PM   #7
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... I drive out to town, to a law office, and find a few lawyers, a notary, and a judge all waiting for me. ...
If there wasn't a bona fide Nigerian Prince present, then it was clearly a scam.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:38 PM   #8
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This brings to mind something interesting ...
If insanity was contagious, then I wouldn't get too near your friend.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:39 PM   #9
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If there wasn't a bona fide Nigerian Prince present, then it was clearly a scam.
Sounds like it, doesn't it? But nope, I went to an officially licensed, bar certified lawyers office, and watched some people sign some documents. All I was asked to give was 20 minutes of my time, and the gas to drive up there.

I'm not saying this is real, and he did in fact buy back this supposed debtor, but it was a curious thing.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:41 PM   #10
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Sounds like it, doesn't it? But nope, I went to an official licensed, bar certified lawyers office, and watched some people sign some documents. All I was asked to give was 20 minutes of my time, and the gas to drive up there.

I'm not saying this is real, and he did in fact buy back this supposed debtor, but it was a curious thing.
Lawyers get involved in all kinds of things.

Debtor buy backs, however ...



Edit: It was interesting about losing your citizenship. You just gave me incentive to not pay my bills.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:45 PM   #11
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Lawyers get involved in all kinds of things.
I know this. But the fact he's going on and on and on about this one subject, then a few months later supposedly does it in an official capacity makes the whole situation...odd.

He could've been lying to me then, and continued to lie to me for years afterwards. I've thought of that. But the timing, and the circumstances, and the way he usually is about things makes me intensely curious about it.

It's one of life's little mysteries for me.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:51 PM   #12
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He could've been lying to me then, and continued to lie to me for years afterwards.
Yes. Or he could be severely deluded or insane.

True story ...

In my early twenties (over 30 years ago) a very intelligent friend and I had fun watching professional wrestling. We even watched a live performance.

I always thought it was just fun, but my friend floored me when he told me he thought the wrestling was real. Like real, real.

Don't be fooled by intelligence. Sometimes it can be overwhelmed by other influences.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:56 PM   #13
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Sounds like it, doesn't it? But nope, I went to an officially licensed, bar certified lawyers office, and watched some people sign some documents. All I was asked to give was 20 minutes of my time, and the gas to drive up there.

I'm not saying this is real, and he did in fact buy back this supposed debtor, but it was a curious thing.
Just because a lawyer was present and people signed documents doesn't mean you witnessed a legal process. What you saw sounds more to me like a ritual for the benefit of your friend.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 09:00 PM   #14
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Yes. Or he could be severely deluded or insane.
I've thought of that too. But if he were deluded to the point that he went to a lawyer to, say, sign a lease while secretly believing he was doing this perfectly legal, yet subversive thing, that level of insanity probably would've manifested itself elsewhere by now.

Trust me, I've had awhile to mull this over. All I can come up with are a bunch of ifs, maybes, and buts.

Hell, maybe I'm the one who's insane. Maybe I imagined it all. O_o

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True story ...

In my early twenties (over 30 years ago) a very intelligent friend and I had fun watching professional wrestling. We even watched a live performance.

I always thought it was just fun, but my friend floored me when he told me he thought the wrestling was real. Like real, real.

Don't be fooled by intelligence. Sometimes it can be overwhelmed by other influences.
I dunno if I'd call that crazy so much as incredibly naive.

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Just because a lawyer was present and people signed documents doesn't mean you witnessed a legal process. What you saw sounds more to me like a ritual for the benefit of your friend.
Possibly, though, say, a third party getting a bunch of actors together to indulge this one crazy fantasy of his is almost as outlandish. Especially when you consider the way he was then and the way he is now. Like I said above, I doubt anyone would have a single break with reality that extreme and then just have it...go away. It'd be more like the first symptoms of some greater sickness.

From my perspective, he wasn't obsessive over it to the point it consumed his entire life that something so extreme had to be done. He was just very interested about it, then (allegedly) took advantage of it.

If you want to use Occham's Razor, the only truly simple, logical answer here is that he's been lying to me all this time. He's usually so matter of factly and serious, you wouldn't expect it, but it could just be him having fun at my expense.

Last edited by Renzatic; Sep 26, 2013 at 09:26 PM.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 09:09 PM   #15
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In regard to the OP's question. Die hard libertarians tend to place themselves on a pedestal of personal responsibility and self sufficiency -- to the point where they believe that they will never *need* any type of emergency services. Only weak, irresponsible parasites like us need any type of assistance from anyone.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 09:15 PM   #16
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... Trust me, I've had awhile to mull this over. All I can come up with are a bunch of ifs, maybes, and buts.

Hell, maybe I'm the one who's insane. Maybe I imagined it all. O_o
...
Well, there could be a perfectly logical explanation...

Perhaps at some point on your drive to the fabric of out of town law office you slipped through a trans-dimensional rip that allowed you to slip into a parallel universe where it's legal and common-place for people to "buy back the debtor" from the government. Then, on your return trip you crossed back over to the prime universe from whence you came...
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 09:15 PM   #17
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I dunno if I'd call that crazy so much as incredibly naive.
You might be on to something there.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 09:24 PM   #18
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Well, there could be a perfectly logical explanation...

Perhaps at some point on your drive to the fabric of out of town law office you slipped through a trans-dimensional rip that allowed you to slip into a parallel universe where it's legal and common-place for people to "buy back the debtor" from the government. Then, on your return trip you crossed back over to the prime universe from whence you came...
Hate to tell you this man, but the alternate universe? I've been there twice now.

...it's not weird enough over there to account for this. :P
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 09:40 PM   #19
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He could've been lying to me then, and continued to lie to me for years afterwards. I've thought of that.
"Lying" implies intentional deception. Someone can be wrong about something without lying.

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But the timing, and the circumstances, and the way he usually is about things makes me intensely curious about it.
Then why not ask him about it?

One big problem with the story you've posted is there doesn't seem to be much to go on, if someone wanted to investigate it. You're not even sure if it's "debtor" or "deader". In its current state, and with the information you've given so far, it's just a weird story that you experienced. I have a few of those, too, just not about taxes.


The thing with income taxes not being Constitional is something I first heard over 30 years ago. The guy who told me the story, including various details about how to avoid paying income tax, was (as far as I could tell) completely convinced, no, make that completely certain, that this was a viable strategy with no significant consequences for him. It seemed preposterous to me at the time, but I didn't do any more research on it than looking up the text of the 16th Amendment, and confirming for myself what it's ratification date was. At that point I decided he was deluding himself, so I stopped listening to him about that subject. I have no idea whether he tried it or not, as we lost contact within a year or so after that.

Since that time, it's become much easier to find basic research results, such as the text of the 16th Amendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

That article also has some information on the legislative history, the case law (legal arguments & court rulings), and various protests against it. I thought the case law was interesting, as well as the protests. For example, this See Also article linked to by the above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_pro...ment_arguments

Note that one of the protestor arguments is that Ohio wasn't a state at the time of ratification. Even though that argument was dismissed by courts, all one has to do is look at the dates on which States ratified the Amendment to realize that two additional States ratified the Amendment on the same date as Delaware. So even if you take Ohio out, there are still enough States to ratify it, and on exactly the same date (Feb 3, 1913).

I don't know how you judge credibility, but if someone can be that wrong about something that basic, I tend to doubt any other arguments they might advance, even if the argument seems plausible on its face. Basically, if tax avoidance were that simple, then why aren't more people doing it? The internet makes it so darn simple to distribute information, that surely it should be trivial to find precise simple instructions. So where are those instructions?

As to renouncing US citizenship to avoid taxes, one ought to look into that more closely, using information from a credible source. Not because it's impossible, or even implausible, but because there might be consequences one hadn't considered.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 10:07 PM   #20
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Then why not ask him about it?
I just dug up his number and texted him a little while ago. It's 11PM, and I haven't talked to him in about 2 years, so I don't expect I'll be able to hit him up right away, but hopefully I'll have something to post tonight or tomorrow.

Now that it's been brought up beyond an offhand reminder, and pushed to the forefront of my brain, I want to get to the bottom of it.

Quote:
One big problem with the story you've posted is there doesn't seem to be much to go on, if someone wanted to investigate it. You're not even sure if it's "debtor" or "deader". In its current state, and with the information you've given so far, it's just a weird story that you experienced. I have a few of those, too, just not about taxes.
Keep in mind that I was only involved in the periphery of the whole thing. My experience with it was maybe about three-four conversations, and acting as a witness, and then a conversation about it afterwards. I've attempted looking it up a few times over the years, but my quick Google searches for "Income tax debtors, debtor/deader surrogate, buying back your debtor/deader, etc", haven't netted me much of anything.

But considering what you've said below...

Quote:
The thing with income taxes not being Constitional is something I first heard over 30 years ago. The guy who told me the story, including various details about how to avoid paying income tax, was (as far as I could tell) completely convinced, no, make that completely certain, that this was a viable strategy with no significant consequences for him. It seemed preposterous to me at the time, but I didn't do any more research on it than looking up the text of the 16th Amendment, and confirming for myself what it's ratification date was. At that point I decided he was deluding himself, so I stopped listening to him about that subject. I have no idea whether he tried it or not, as we lost contact within a year or so after that.

Snip
First off, I'm wondering why the hell I didn't think of the 16th amendment while researching this. It's not like I haven't read through the amendments over a dozen times in the last 10 years, and at least 10,000 times since I started posting here. It's the one best piece of proof that counters his claims.

There's a dozen different things I can draw from this, a few being...

He's actually honestly crazy.
He's having fun at my expense.
He did do something, though I misunderstood exactly what. Maybe I've mixed up two entirely separate conversations over the passing years.

If it's the third, he did do something a little off kilter, though whatever it was, it's probably not nearly so outlandish.

Quote:
As to renouncing US citizenship to avoid taxes, one ought to look into that more closely, using information from a credible source. Not because it's impossible, or even implausible, but because there might be consequences one hadn't considered.
From what I remember, it wasn't that you renounced your citizenship to avoid taxes, so much as it was a potential consequence of not doing everything perfectly. Like it all depended on your statement on the forms, how the judge interprets it, and...yeah...it's all very strange.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 10:48 PM   #21
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Now that it's been brought up beyond an offhand reminder, and pushed to the forefront of my brain, I want to get to the bottom of it.
The only thing that I'll suggest is to not feel compelled to defend it.

We all believe some pretty crazy stuff in our lives.

At best, we move on and learn something from it.

On the other hand, if you find something interesting ... by all means ... please pass it on.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 11:21 PM   #22
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In regard to the OP's question. Die hard libertarians tend to place themselves on a pedestal of personal responsibility and self sufficiency -- to the point where they believe that they will never *need* any type of emergency services. Only weak, irresponsible parasites like us need any type of assistance from anyone.
So, I think I would agree with that statement, and libertarians should be happy to be denied services. They will do just fine on their own
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 11:27 PM   #23
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The only thing that I'll suggest is to not feel compelled to defend it.

We all believe some pretty crazy stuff in our lives.

At best, we move on and learn something from it.
Well, it's not so much I'm compelled to defend it, so much as trying to explain why I don't flat out dismiss the whole thing offhand. It's one of situations where you have to know everyone involved to understand what makes it seem slightly less insane and a lot more mysterious than it appears on the surface. I don't believe it exactly, but something weird went on that day.

Though admittedly, if the situations were reversed, I'd be saying the exact same things you all are.

Quote:
On the other hand, if you find something interesting ... by all means ... please pass it on.
I plan on it. Though if I don't post anything in the next two or three days...call 911. :O

edit: also, I should pop in and formally apologize for hijacking G5's thread. :P
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 12:18 AM   #24
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I plan on it. Though if I don't post anything in the next two or three days...call 911. :O
911 can't save you from the black helicopters.
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 12:31 AM   #25
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How would they be identified as non-taxpayers?

Identification and enforcement sounds like a nightmare to me.
It is a nightmare.


There could be an RIFD chip that they would need to carry ,or a bright patch letting police know not to protect them, and to remove them from public land by force.

Also ,the said non tax payers will not be protected by the constitution on any level, as the government it formed is funded by tax payers, therefore the non payers will not carry the same rights.
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