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Old Oct 12, 2013, 09:01 PM   #1
TacticalDesire
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Welfare Pays More Than Minimum-Wage Work In 35 States

Article pretty much says it all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...-in-35-states/

Help the poor but don't subsidize poverty. Welfare shouldn't be a disincentive to work which is what I feel it has become. At least to a certain degree. Welfare should NOT provide comfortable living but rather provide the absolute bare essentials for somebody to get back on their feet. It can be argued that it already provides the bare essentials or that it's too much or too little but that is where I will let the discussion start so others can provide their thoughts.

As Bill Clinton was quoted in the article during is 1992 campaign on a platform to “end welfare as we know it, to make welfare a second chance, not a way of life.”
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Old Oct 12, 2013, 09:19 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
Article pretty much says it all.
1. Welfare needs to be properly defined, as it consists of both temporary federal assistance as well as state and local programs that get combined under the general rubric, "welfare".

2. All those forms of "welfare" equal more than a $7.50 per hour job? Thank god. Otherwise we might as well call ourselves India and call the poor "untouchables".
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Old Oct 12, 2013, 09:21 PM   #3
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Cato Study Distorts the Truth on Welfare and Work

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So what makes this so misleading?

For one, Tanner and Hughes make the assumption that these families receive simultaneous assistance from all of the following programs: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Supplement Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), Medicaid, Housing Assistance Payments, Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP), Women, Infants, and Children Program (WIC), and The Emergency Food Assistance Program (TEFAP). It is this simultaneous assistance from multiple sources that lets the entire “welfare benefits package” identified by Cato add up to serious money. But it’s absurd to assume that someone would receive every one of these benefits, simultaneously.

- See more at: http://www.epi.org/blog/cato-study-d....zHh6Wb6l.dpuf
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Old Oct 12, 2013, 09:40 PM   #4
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Then perhaps it is time to increase the minimum wage rather than decrease welfare assistance.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 01:18 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
Welfare should NOT provide comfortable living ..
I suggest you try living on "welfare" (thats if you actually qualify for any in your state) for a couple of months. Get back to us and let us know how "comfortable" it was for you.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 01:36 AM   #6
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Yeah, as others have said, this is more a sign of minimum wage being too low. People on welfare aren't exactly living large.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 02:12 AM   #7
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I to must join the people saying that all that statement shows is that the "Minimum wage is too low"



One side effect that the crisis of 2008-2013 had here in the Netherlands, was before the crisis many many people were saying that unemployment benefits were far to high.
These were mostly on the right of the political spectrum VVD or PVV, since 2008 and many of these same people were themselves made unemployed suddenly the mood changed, and the cry went up just how hard it is to live on unemployed benefits.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 02:53 AM   #8
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Either increase minimum wage or lower welfare.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 05:41 AM   #9
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Or:

- adapt welfare in a way that allows people earning min. wage to still get some (and be better of than with just welfare)

- stop trusting statistics compiled with intent
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 08:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Yeah, as others have said, this is more a sign of minimum wage being too low. People on welfare aren't exactly living large.
This is pretty much the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
Article pretty much says it all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...-in-35-states/

Help the poor but don't subsidize poverty. Welfare shouldn't be a disincentive to work which is what I feel it has become. At least to a certain degree. Welfare should NOT provide comfortable living but rather provide the absolute bare essentials for somebody to get back on their feet. It can be argued that it already provides the bare essentials or that it's too much or too little but that is where I will let the discussion start so others can provide their thoughts.
Do you really believe that people on welfare have a comfortable living? Do you think that minimum wage provides a comfortable living? Are you one of those people who thinks that if someone is eating two meals a day of cheap frozen entrees and actually has a window air conditioner and a 15-year-old tube TV in their 300 square foot apartment that they are living comfortably?

Define comfortable living and then explain how you think welfare provides that. Also explain how you think minimum wage might provide a comfortable living. The federal minimum wage for a 40-hour/week, 52-week/year job is $15,080 before any deductions. That is most certainly not comfortable. Twice that is not comfortable. Three times that is barely what I would call "comfortable". So yet again, please explain how welfare provides for a comfortable life.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 10:07 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
Welfare should NOT provide comfortable living but rather provide the absolute bare essentials for somebody to get back on their feet.
That is what it does, minimum wage is just too low in most places to be able to survive on whiteout working 2 or 3 full time jobs. Welfare should stay about the same and minimum wage should go up so that people working a full time job that earns minimum wage are able to live without having to be working 80+ hours per week.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 11:08 AM   #12
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Time to increase the minimum wage. Simples.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 11:28 AM   #13
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I didn't say that everyone on welfare is living comfortably. I said welfare shouldn't be that which is what some people want. I didn't say I knew what the solution was either. I have my own beliefs and opinions but I left everything open for discussion. Not to be attacked and have words put in my mouth.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 11:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
I didn't say that everyone on welfare is living comfortably. I said welfare shouldn't be that which is what some people want. I didn't say I knew what the solution was either. I have my own beliefs and opinions but I left everything open for discussion. Not to be attacked and have words put in my mouth.
If it wasn't something you said, who are you responding to? I don't think anyone here has claimed that those on benefits should live "comfortably".
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 11:33 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
I didn't say that everyone on welfare is living comfortably. I said welfare shouldn't be that which is what some people want.
This post is a prime candidate for the thread, Should A Person's Opinion be Dismissed Due to a Grammatical Error?

Quote:
I said welfare shouldn't be that which is what some people want.
Could you please restate that in a way that makes some sense?

Thank you.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 11:35 AM   #16
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I managed to parse it. It's not that difficult, really.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 11:53 AM   #17
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I'm saying some people think welfare should provide a comfortable standard of living and I'm saying it shouldn't. Do not construe that as me saying that I think people on welfare are living large.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 12:01 PM   #18
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
I'm saying some people think welfare should provide a comfortable standard of living and I'm saying it shouldn't. Do not construe that as me saying that I think people on welfare are living large.
You can find "some people" who believe virtually anything.

Who are these people? Can you identify them or are they just some vague population out there?

Is there any specific political movement or legislation that you can connect to them so we can discuss something specific and not simply base the discussion on what you think "some people" believe?
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 12:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
This is pretty much the truth.

Do you really believe that people on welfare have a comfortable living? Do you think that minimum wage provides a comfortable living? Are you one of those people who thinks that if someone is eating two meals a day of cheap frozen entrees and actually has a window air conditioner and a 15-year-old tube TV in their 300 square foot apartment that they are living comfortably?

Define comfortable living and then explain how you think welfare provides that. Also explain how you think minimum wage might provide a comfortable living. The federal minimum wage for a 40-hour/week, 52-week/year job is $15,080 before any deductions. That is most certainly not comfortable. Twice that is not comfortable. Three times that is barely what I would call "comfortable". So yet again, please explain how welfare provides for a comfortable life.
You can create less expensive more wholesome, whole foods by staying away from frozen pre-mades.

Comfortable? On minimum. No. That is not the purpose. Bare essentials, minimum luxury. As that is all that is being earned.

My grandparents have window/wall units. Does fine even in hot humid GA summers. When the family gets together we are plenty comfortable.

If a tube TV is still working, why replace it? Electronics like that only depreciate in value. It's very wasteful and landfill-fillling to discard of devices just because they don't meet somebody else's cosmetic requirements. (I am guilty of this)

We are nerds and gadget lovers.
You make the mistake of assuming everyone has the same wants as you.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 12:18 PM   #20
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The problem with welfare and housing is a lack of personal inspection.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 12:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
Article pretty much says it all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...-in-35-states/

Help the poor but don't subsidize poverty. Welfare shouldn't be a disincentive to work which is what I feel it has become. At least to a certain degree. Welfare should NOT provide comfortable living but rather provide the absolute bare essentials for somebody to get back on their feet. It can be argued that it already provides the bare essentials or that it's too much or too little but that is where I will let the discussion start so others can provide their thoughts.

As Bill Clinton was quoted in the article during is 1992 campaign on a platform to “end welfare as we know it, to make welfare a second chance, not a way of life.”

If you read the article it does indeed say it all. The writers conclusion is to tax welfare benefits . How this gives incentive to welfare recipients to work is beyond me.

And keep in mind the origin of the article.

Avik Roy is a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. In 2012, he served as a health care policy advisor to Mitt Romney. In addition to his Forbes blog, he write on health care, fiscal matters, finance, and other policy issues for National Review.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 02:05 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TacticalDesire View Post
I'm saying some people think welfare should provide a comfortable standard of living and I'm saying it shouldn't. Do not construe that as me saying that I think people on welfare are living large.
A few points:

1) With or without kids? A young single guy might figure that living under a bridge is "comfortable". A single mom with two kids (with her deadbeat ex- ) might feel that a roof over her head and some food for the kids with protein in it is the bare minimum.

2) How much do you punish children for the bad judgement of their parents?

3) A few times in my youth about the only food I could afford was rice with potatoes. Tough circumstances are probably good for those who can benefit from them, but, can be very destructive for others. I don't think it is a good idea to punish people for being destitute, or, punish unmotivated people with destitution, even if some people actually do benefit from it.

4) The Living Wage Calculator can be a helpful way for people to think about how much money it takes to live.

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

5) Most of us live in an urban environment. My experience has taught me that the modern urban environment is very, very different from the Jeffersonian "yeoman farmer" ideal. Some type of Welfare State will come into existence; pure Libertarianism simply does not work. What we have right now is an extremely punitive form of welfare state, contrary to what the Cato Institute believes. I think there is a better way.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 02:45 PM   #23
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5) Most of us live in an urban environment. My experience has taught me that the modern urban environment is very, very different from the Jeffersonian "yeoman farmer" ideal. Some type of Welfare State will come into existence; pure Libertarianism simply does not work. What we have right now is an extremely punitive form of welfare state, contrary to what the Cato Institute believes. I think there is a better way.
Some type of Welfare State was already in existence. For anybody interested, English Poor Laws had long tried to address the problem if the "idle poor" (seemingly healthy individuals who refused to work). The modern urban environment did not create this problem, it has existed and proven unsolvable for centuries.

I'd be interested in hearing what CATO or anyone else thinks is the solution for this population. I personally think we're a wealthy enough nation to afford the relief programs that give them some degree of food and shelter and am happy my tax dollars go to such programs. However, if we as a society decided that it was time government stopped spending money on the poor, then the only solution that I believe is realistic are shantytowns.

Let's hear it for cinder blocks, tin roofs and raw sewage running through the streets.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 03:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
This post is a prime candidate for the thread, Should A Person's Opinion be Dismissed Due to a Grammatical Error?

Quote:
Quote:
I said welfare shouldn't be that which is what some people want.
Could you please restate that in a way that makes some sense?

Thank you.
Mostly, it was missing a comma.
Try "I said welfare shouldn't be that, which is what some people want."
Or to expand:
"I said that welfare shouldn't be a comfortable living. Some people want welfare to be a comfortable living."
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 03:06 PM   #25
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Mostly, it was missing a comma.
Try "I said welfare shouldn't be that, which is what some people want."
Or to expand:
"I said that welfare shouldn't be a comfortable living. Some people want welfare to be a comfortable living."
I ask again, who are these "some people"? Are they all straw men?
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