Apple has had over half a year to get IGZO in the Retina Macbook Pro! Expect in Oct.

Starfyre · Oct 13, 2013

It seems a lot of people are in disbelief that Apple could possibly unveil an IGZO product in October, and instead are saying that Apple is likely to release one with an IGZO display in 2014 due to the short amount of time the displays have been in mass production. However, look at companies like Dell launching products on October 16th and October 18th with the IGZO display technology. Yes, you can order them on that day, even before any Apple keynote. And you think Apple may not have had the time to get them in before dell?

Interviews about the display clearly indicate that there are 15.6'' displays being manufactured and the following video from CES 2013 posted January 13, 2013...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1L4mrc_XdM

The representative mentions the displays being on sale in February 2013. Thats over half a year's time for Apple, or any other company like Dell to have done research to use that display in their existing lineup. Yes Dell had done their homework and completed it in a reasonable amount of time that they did to get their XPS 15 to have the IGZO display giving it a whopping 13 hours of battery life, best of any 15 incher including that of the retina Macbook Pro. Mass production doesn't begin now or next year, they already started manufacturing April 13, 2012 (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2537...f_igzo_displays_amid_rumors_of_apple_use.html), yes, that is over a year ago...

If Apple Engineering is superior to Dell Engineering... there is no reason why they could not get this technology into an October refresh of the Haswell Macbook Pro complimenting nicely with their power saving Mavericks OS.

Given the display sizes that Sharp representative has said they are manufacturing the displays currently, there should be no reason why Apple could not include this in the latest Retina Macbook Pro. Even when asked by the interviewer if the reason Sharp displays are not in laptops in America because of supply constraints, the representative has flat out said "No". Of course, we can't take the Sharp reps word for granted, but lets face it, Dell is first to release a technology with this display. Apple needs to use it unless it wants to put the retina Macbook Pro back in the lead over Dell's XPS line.

Youtube Link for an IGZO Interview originally posted by Dubberton

For clarification, the display dell uses (3200 x 1800 pixels) has already been in mass production for some time. Sharp has announced 4K displays are due for mass production February 2014. Retina Macbook Pro doesn't need 4K for this October release, the one thats already in mass production now will do.

dusk007 · Oct 13, 2013

Well as far as the iphone goes a lot of people consider the galaxy S4, LG G2, HTC One, ... superior simply because of the display. Display size is the single most useful improvement for media consumption. All the speed of the A7 is virtually worth less as the apps used on these devices for the most part don't need that speed nor run any better.
A 4.3-4.5" display is what even the conservative people consider the better display size. 5" and bigger for those that really like media, notepads and so on. And 4.3" 16:9 is already a significantly bigger than the iphone 5X.

So Apple does fine including all sorts of other stuff while sticking with the less useful display. The thing Apple really has on its competitors is the finger print reader and that things usefulness is up for debate as even Apple doesn't think it needs to be on a just slightly cheaper 5C. Motion+other awareness stuff coprocessors Motorola did too, and many have in the pipeline, afaik it was something that google pushed for first.

The problem with IGZO is also that there is currently only one manufacturer. Its benefits are mostly battery life so all they can claim by including them is more battery life. Even if they used IGZO the resolution would stay as is in the retinas. Granted how big the battery in the retinas is compared to what other companies use they probably will be fine on at least getting to a draw.

I never liked Dells cooling on their consumer XPS lines and their battery life claims are probably not very realistic. If you put a rMBP 15" idle and dimm the display all the way it will also run a very long time. I think we need to wait and see how worthwhile those notebooks are. I still think it is weird that there still is no such notebook available. No 15" high end allrounder from Samsung, Asus has been updated yet and Dells is coming in a week or in some countries. I would rather have an Ativ book 8 than the Dell as Samsung is better with silent cooling.

lcseds · Oct 13, 2013

I don't know why folks are excited about a panel made by Sharp. Pretty low grade stuff in my opinion. I will wait and see how that goes for some months before I'll bite. Hopefully the tech will make it to other manufacturers before too long.

PDFierro · Oct 13, 2013

I think you have put more thought into it than Apple has. It really doesn't mean anything, just that Apple can't get them ready for mass productions.

Most consumers will not miss IGZO if it doesn't come this year. I fully expect it to be in the Broadwell refresh.

FrozenDarkness · Oct 13, 2013

i'm highly skeptical that we'll see 4K next year. i think it's a pipe dream.

Starfyre · Oct 13, 2013

Apple has had over half a year to get IGZO in the Retina Macbook Pro! Expect in Oct.

VanillaCracker said:
Or they don't want to be early adopters again like they were for Retina and instead of having to optimize for another resolution (~3200x1800) they're simply going to wait for the 4k IGZO displays in 2014, and jump right to that for the 2014 rMBP, considering the current rMBP's display has a pretty decent resolution as it is. Current MBP: 2800x1800. Availabe IGZO: 3200x1800. They'll likely wait till 4k (~3800x2200) IGZO next year. Ofc, this would mean they don't get to take advantage of IGZO's battery savings this year either.

If Apple has this "lets be patient and wait" attitude we would probably have not seen 64-bit, Motion Coprocessor, or any of the actual new innovations Apple included for the iPhone 5S, which is a new product release that puts Apple ahead of its competitors at least for now.

The issue here is we are talking about laptops... which Apple has consistently been able to be in the lead without having to "adopt" any of these new technologies. With Dell and their new 13 hour beast XPS 15 due out October 18th, Apple is losing... its like Apple releasing an iPhone 5S that was clearly worse than the Galaxy S4, which it has been proven to be better on many factors and benchmarks.

What could they advertise about the Retina Macbook Pro when its announced late October? That is has better battery life and new features because of Mavericks, but has a sub-par display compared only to Dell?

Its one thing to delay adopting IPS technologies because you are already ahead of your competitors, and your competitors just can't get IPS displays and battery life to work right even if they did.... but its a whole nother thing when a company like Dell is actually able to innovatively engineer a product that does better than a product that you currently have with this new IGZO technology.

Apple can't just take a "lets wait and adopt the next biggest thing attitude" without causing their reputation to take a dip even at least a mild one from supporters that believe Apple being in the lead with a solid product despite whatever the PC market comes out with that have been subpar.... The Dell XPS 15 is like a message to Apple of Dell showing they have the engineering capacity to really deliver a complete and innovative product to its consumers and Apple is not the only one that has "the quality and resources to be the only company to be able to pull off a product like this".

If Apple didn't put an IGZO display in their product this year, they would have to make sure they are somehow able to pull battery life that is at least or greater than what the Dell XPS 15 is able to pull with its 13 hours of battery life, or we can only see Apple continue to slip in the charts as they have begun to in the latest back to school charts.

If Apple is going to release a new rMBP with haswell that falls behind the Dell in battery life without an IGZO display... and release a future product that comes with an IGZO display... well... maybe Apple is just the kind of company is just strategically trying to make some more money like they did with the incremental bumpups of the iPads, iPhones and the rest of their product lines. However... it would also mean that up until the time Apple does release the rMBP with an IGZO display, Apple really is taking a backseat with Dell at the front, despite the profits Apple will make from the product.

sjinsjca · Oct 13, 2013

Shrug. Go buy a Dell, then.

Apple is often a first-mover when new technologies arrive... and make sense. (A good example being 64-bit ARM SOCs, which Apple is first delivering, and SSDs, which ditto.)

But sometimes Apple hesitates or even passes on a technology for good reason. A year ago there were practically bricks being thrown through the windows of 1 Infinite Loop for Apple's failure to deliver NFC technology in the iPhone 5. Fast forward twelve months, and NFC suddenly looks much less interesting. Similarly, I can recall posters condemning the company for not adopting OLED displays in the iPhone. And here we are, with OLEDs now known for florid, over-saturated colors and device-wrecking burn-in issues. And so on.

My point is, sometimes Apple deserves credit for what it doesn't do. Who knows, IGZO might be an example.

bilawal · Oct 13, 2013

My friend... It's true, a lot of folks on here don't believe 4k will happen...

Here are two reasons why:

First, all of this is speculation until something concrete is announced. Yes, I saw what that rep said. Quite hopeful. But Apple is already been behind every other manufacture to refresh their high-end laptop series with Haswell and new GPUs. If they go with 4k, they'll have to optimize Mavericks and the iLife suite (among other apps) for the increase resolution. No too difficult of a job, but still takes time, especially given that they recently optimized everything for the current retina screens. Beyond displays, people are also deliberating iGPU vs dGPU among other things. Maybe the 4k was on it's way and something happened. We just don't know. Plans change. All we can do is make our own best guess.

Second, a lot of people are just tired of waiting for the Haswell refresh for such a long time, need a bloody laptop, don't give two deuces about 4k and want their new MBP now now now!

Actually, it might mainly be the latter

Anyway, I for one hope you're right- I'd love a 4k Haswell MBP. But, I'd also be perfectly happy with the current retina display.

Anyway, back to waiting... *looks at calendar*

Wuiffi · Oct 14, 2013

Another thing is, that we really don't know how good those IGZO panels are. For years now (I remember asking on this forum if first gen rMBP and den iPhone 5 had IGZO) we have been told that IGZO is the next big thin. Extreme power savings, higher resolution, brighter, cheaper to manufacture and so on. But what do we really know about the quality: viewing angles, color gamut, ...

Furthermore they just moved their (high end) mobile computers to IPS last year!

Personally I'd love to see them adopt IGZO - perhaps 2880x1800 on the 13" and 3360x2100 on the 15".

laurihoefs · Oct 14, 2013

Wuiffi said:
Another thing is, that we really don't know how good those IGZO panels are. For years now (I remember asking on this forum if first gen rMBP and den iPhone 5 had IGZO) we have been told that IGZO is the next big thin. Extreme power savings, higher resolution, brighter, cheaper to manufacture and so on. But what do we really know about the quality: viewing angles, color gamut, ...

Furthermore they just moved their (high end) mobile computers to IPS last year!

Personally I'd love to see them adopt IGZO - perhaps 2880x1800 on the 13" and 3360x2100 on the 15".

My thoughts exactly.

What bothers me about all this hype, is that right now all the available information is very vague and limited, and pretty much comes from the marketing materials of a couple of display manufacturers. There's nothing concrete. No available reviews, no measurements, nothing.

The much talked about revised Dell XPS 15 with its IGZO display is not available yet. It's detailed pricing is yet to be announced. Even when it becomes available, the $1499 basic configuration does not have the IGZO panel, and no-one outside Dell knows whether the IGZO panel will be shipping right away.

Here's a quote from The Verge (emphasis added):

The catch could be price. The new XPS 15 will start at $1,499 on October 18th, but that's just for the base model with a Core i5 processor, a 1080p screen, integrated Intel graphics, hybrid storage, and even a smaller battery. That's already pricy, and it's likely Dell will charge a good bit more to get the specs that set this laptop apart.

Apple is quite certainly testing IGZO displays internally, and will draw their conclusions. If the initial IGZO IPS offerings mean sacrificing uniformity, viewing angles or color reproduction for an increased resolution, I hope Apple stays with the current amorphous silicon IPS until the technology matures. If on the other hand the quality is on par with current rMBP displays, then Apple might as well ship IGZO displays very soon.

But I really don't think (or at least I really hope) Apple will go for IGZO displays just because of the hype, they will do it if it makes sense.

CausticPuppy · Oct 14, 2013

Starfyre said:
It seems a lot of people are in disbelief that Apple could possibly unveil an IGZO product in October, and instead are saying that Apple is likely to release one with an IGZO display in 2014 due to the short amount of time the displays have been in mass production. However, look at companies like Dell launching products on October 16th and October 18th with the IGZO display technology. Yes, you can order them on that day, even before any Apple keynote. And you think Apple may not have had the time to get them in before dell?

Interviews about the display clearly indicate that there are 15.6'' displays being manufactured and the following video from CES 2013 posted January 13, 2013...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1L4mrc_XdM

The representative mentions the displays being on sale in February 2013. Thats over half a year's time for Apple, or any other company like Dell to have done research to use that display in their existing lineup. Yes Dell had done their homework and completed it in a reasonable amount of time that they did to get their XPS 15 to have the IGZO display giving it a whopping 13 hours of battery life, best of any 15 incher including that of the retina Macbook Pro. Mass production doesn't begin now or next year, they already started manufacturing April 13, 2012 (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2537...f_igzo_displays_amid_rumors_of_apple_use.html), yes, that is over a year ago...

If Apple Engineering is superior to Dell Engineering... there is no reason why they could not get this technology into an October refresh of the Haswell Macbook Pro complimenting nicely with their power saving Mavericks OS.

Given the display sizes that Sharp representative has said they are manufacturing the displays currently, there should be no reason why Apple could not include this in the latest Retina Macbook Pro. Even when asked by the interviewer if the reason Sharp displays are not in laptops in America because of supply constraints, the representative has flat out said "No". Of course, we can't take the Sharp reps word for granted, but lets face it, Dell is first to release a technology with this display. Apple needs to use it unless it wants to put the retina Macbook Pro back in the lead over Dell's XPS line.

Youtube Link for an IGZO Interview originally posted by Dubberton

For clarification, the display dell uses (3200 x 1800 pixels) has already been in mass production for some time. Sharp has announced 4K displays are due for mass production February 2014. Retina Macbook Pro doesn't need 4K for this October release, the one thats already in mass production now will do.

I guess it depends on whether these new IGZO displays will perform well with regard to color rendering (gamut and accuracy). Dell might be the first to put in a high-res IGZO panel, but is it a good panel? It might very well be, but I haven't seen any reviews yet. Looking forward to Anandtech reviewing one of these models.

jeblis · Oct 14, 2013

Technology is a pipeline. 6 months may not really be long enough. Often times several years in length.

One supporting rumor is that one analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, who often gets things right, suggested that macbooks would be delayed to October due to display yields. Since the current rmbp displays are well into mass productions, it implies that there is a least some difference with the new ones.

tofagerl · Oct 14, 2013

The Precision 15" with IGZO is listed as shipping on the 18th, so not long after that we should have some reviews. The XPS will probably be a bit later.

radiologyman · Oct 14, 2013

The yields could be too low for apple as Kuo said. It's easier for Dell to launch igzo given that their launch numbers are orders of magnitude lower than those of popular apple notebook.

sarakn · Oct 14, 2013

jeblis said:
Technology is a pipeline. 6 months may not really be long enough. Often times several years in length.

One supporting rumor is that one analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, who often gets things right, suggested that macbooks would be delayed to October due to display yields. Since the current rmbp displays are well into mass productions, it implies that there is a least some difference with the new ones.

Eff Kuo

Freyqq · Oct 14, 2013

sjinsjca said:
Shrug. Go buy a Dell, then.

Apple is often a first-mover when new technologies arrive... and make sense. (A good example being 64-bit ARM SOCs, which Apple is first delivering, and SSDs, which ditto.)

But sometimes Apple hesitates or even passes on a technology for good reason. A year ago there were practically bricks being thrown through the windows of 1 Infinite Loop for Apple's failure to deliver NFC technology in the iPhone 5. Fast forward twelve months, and NFC suddenly looks much less interesting. Similarly, I can recall posters condemning the company for not adopting OLED displays in the iPhone. And here we are, with OLEDs now known for florid, over-saturated colors and device-wrecking burn-in issues. And so on.

My point is, sometimes Apple deserves credit for what it doesn't do. Who knows, IGZO might be an example.

Wasn't there a rumor here that apple was a major investor in Sharp due to IGZO displays? They wouldn't take a big stake for that reason and not use the tech.

gizmo84 · Oct 15, 2013

http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/11/07/apple-may-have-invested-2-billion-to-aid-struggling-display-maker-sharp

Previse · Oct 15, 2013

sjinsjca said:
Shrug. Go buy a Dell, then.

Apple is often a first-mover when new technologies arrive... and make sense. (A good example being 64-bit ARM SOCs, which Apple is first delivering, and SSDs, which ditto.)

But sometimes Apple hesitates or even passes on a technology for good reason. A year ago there were practically bricks being thrown through the windows of 1 Infinite Loop for Apple's failure to deliver NFC technology in the iPhone 5. Fast forward twelve months, and NFC suddenly looks much less interesting. Similarly, I can recall posters condemning the company for not adopting OLED displays in the iPhone. And here we are, with OLEDs now known for florid, over-saturated colors and device-wrecking burn-in issues. And so on.

My point is, sometimes Apple deserves credit for what it doesn't do. Who knows, IGZO might be an example.

Not only has apple been testing IGZO, but the whole reason the retina ipad was "Bigger" (If you will) than the 2nd gen was because they were counting on IGZO. Otherwise they had to add a thicker panel with a bigger battery.

I can understand passing up NFC (IMO (And i own a GS4) It's completely useless) I can also understand passing up OLED (It was pre-mature) but passing up IGZO out of all, would be a complete let down.

sjinsjca · Oct 15, 2013

Previse said:
I can understand passing up NFC (IMO (And i own a GS4) It's completely useless) I can also understand passing up OLED (It was pre-mature) but passing up IGZO out of all, would be a complete let down.

Apple's lack of IGZO may be a temporary disappointment related to the manufacturers' ability to deliver quality product in the necessary quantities.

None of us know. But if they are holding off on IGZO, you can bet there is at least one good reason. Perhaps an entirely mundane and boring reason, but a good one.

Krazy Bill · Oct 15, 2013

This close to the refresh, I truly believe if IGZO displays were forthcoming next week we'd have seen evidence, a leak, a blurry pic, a sign in the zodiac.

Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zip.

FrozenDarkness · Oct 15, 2013

Krazy Bill said:
This close to the refresh, I truly believe if IGZO displays were forthcoming next week we'd have seen evidence, a leak, a blurry pic, a sign in the zodiac.

Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zip.

i mean, i rarely see macbook pro rumors and screenshot anyway.

OneCharmingQuar · Oct 15, 2013

Here are my thoughts on the matter:
There have been tons of accurate leaks and available information on which IGZO displays Sharp has been making. So far there have been none that would fit into the typical Macbook paradigm. The displays in rMBPs are already good, so is the battery life. Apple is more likely to prioritze IGZO displays in iPads and Macbook Airs. Both of which need the IGZO technology more, and are probably bigger money makers. Apple wants a Retina iPad mini to catch up with their competition on the display front. They want an IGZO iPad Retina to reduce weight while keeping performance and battery life high. They want a Retina Macbook Air so that they can catch up with Windows 8 Ultrabooks. The TN panel in the current generation might help with battery life compared to higher resolution IPS panels, but it is pretty much worst in class in terms of actual image quality. IGZO should allow for high resolution, high quality, and 10+ hour battery life. IGZO in the rMBP is certainly a possibility, but I haven't read anything that would make it seem plausible.

CausticPuppy said:
I guess it depends on whether these new IGZO displays will perform well with regard to color rendering (gamut and accuracy). Dell might be the first to put in a high-res IGZO panel, but is it a good panel? It might very well be, but I haven't seen any reviews yet. Looking forward to Anandtech reviewing one of these models.

The 3200x1800 IGZO display in the Dell M4800 was tested by someone on the notebookreview forums. It's a very good display. Better than the on the rMBP, especially in brightness.

No screen door effect. The pixels were not visible at all. There were no lines between them. The panel was like looking at paper in a way. Beyond what you see in an iPad or iPhone.

Viewing angles were good, but not as good as the best IPS panels.

100% of sRGB (greens are more than sRGB). 80% of AdobeRGB. 74% NTSC.

Max brightness was 409.51 cd/m2 (nits).

Native white point is 6607K.

Overall Delta Average is 1.0. Attaching chart.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/del...-haswell-based-mobile-precision-m6800-41.html

FrozenDarkness · Oct 15, 2013

my thing is mavericks is a os that's pushing for great battery life. it wouldn't make any sense if they didn't take IGZO into consideration. Haswell is a tock upgrade, the entire focus should be battery life battery life battery life. put in igzo

Starfyre · Oct 15, 2013

I don't see the practicality in having a 4K display in such a small form factor. If it goes to 3000+, the pixels are small enough already. If it means any reduction in battery life going for the even higher resolution, than there really isn't any need for it. Apple should make sure it is able to drive a 4K display though from the laptop.

Xerotech · Oct 15, 2013

IR retention and flickering were relatively a big problem with the first release of the rMBP. Apple is known to test thoroughly, jump ship and release their products ahead of others. The Haswell update is a no brainer. Apple must have something in store that's mind blowing to wait this long.

Apple has had over half a year to get IGZO in the Retina Macbook Pro! Expect in Oct.

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