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Old Oct 14, 2013, 09:48 AM   #1
citizenzen
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Chinese calls for ‘de-Americanized’ world

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U.S. debt crisis spurs Chinese calls for ‘de-Americanized’ world

BEIJING — The political standoff in Washington has spawned frustration and growing worries in China, which remains the largest holder of U.S. government debt, as the clock ticks down to a possible U.S. debt default this week.

The crisis shows that China and the rest of the world should start to “de-Americanize,” according to a strongly worded commentary from Xinhua news agency, China’s leading government-controlled news outlet.

“The world is still crawling its way out of an economic disaster thanks to the voracious Wall Street elites,” the commentary said. “Such alarming days when the destinies of others are in the hands of a hypocritical nation have to be terminated.”

Sunday’s Xinhua opinion piece pushed for establishing a new international reserve currency to replace the dominant U.S. dollar, “so that the international community could permanently stay away from the spillover of the intensifying domestic political turmoil in the United States.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...45b_story.html
It's incredible to me that this whole "debt crisis" is entirely avoidable and is just a product of political brinkmanship. Yet there are very real consequences to these games being played in Washington and the world is taking notice.

Is China right? Is it time to move away from the dollar and "de-Americanize" the world?
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 09:51 AM   #2
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China has always been the voice of neutrality and putting the good of the world before itself. Although I agree our political leader's actions in the eyes of the world is shameful. I'm starting to view the Tea Party as something out of a Steven King novel.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 10:04 AM   #3
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Can China really cast stones?
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 11:01 AM   #4
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Can China really cast stones?
I guess at least it can afford stones.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 11:33 AM   #5
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I guess at least it can afford stones.
How long will that last though? Yea America is in debt to China, but how much of China's economy depends on America? Just asking cause America is the #1 consumer globally. Or am I mistaken?
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 11:49 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
It's incredible to me that this whole "debt crisis" is entirely avoidable and is just a product of political brinkmanship. Yet there are very real consequences to these games being played in Washington and the world is taking notice.

Is China right? Is it time to move away from the dollar and "de-Americanize" the world?
Until the US gets back to passing yearly budgets instead of Omnibus spending bills and CRs, debating fiscal policy and appropriations will continue to be done around the gates of raising the debt limit and passing the next CR. As opposed to entirely avoidable, it seems to be the logical conclusion of this type of governing.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 12:22 PM   #7
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Ceasing to be the world leader may be the one thing that could finally bring real reform to our education, military, and health industries (eg ACA is still a far cry from UHC). The opponents of which often claiming that our current system is somehow still the envy of the world!
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 12:58 PM   #8
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How long will that last though? Yea America is in debt to China, but how much of China's economy depends on America?
China trades a lot with plenty of other countries other than the US .
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:08 PM   #9
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China trades a lot with plenty of other countries other than the US .
I know that. But how much does America affect their economy? What would be the impact on China if America all of the sudden fell into a blackhole?
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:17 PM   #10
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I know that. But how much does America affect their economy? What would be the impact on China if America all of the sudden fell into a blackhole?
Oh probably quite large, but the same applies to everyone else too.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:17 PM   #11
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China trades a lot with plenty of other countries other than the US .
They do, but losing US trade and having us default on our debt would cut their economy off at the knees. Just like every other country in the world, China is betting everything on the status quo.

It's a tightly wound global economy out there. The only way for a country to prosper over another these days is for them to succeed better than their competition, though ultimately everyone has to succeed in some shape, form, or fashion for it all to work. If one of the larger players default, the entire works come tumbling down, and everyone takes a severe beating.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:20 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by LIVEFRMNYC View Post
I know that. But how much does America affect their economy? What would be the impact on China if America all of the sudden fell into a blackhole?
From the article quoted in the OP ...

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China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. Treasury bonds, with roughly $1.28 trillion, although holdings have declined slightly in absolute terms in the past year, and more sharply as a proportion of total reserves in the past decade.

Meanwhile, Japan — the second-largest holder of U.S. debt with $1.14 trillion — has expressed similar concerns. “The U.S. must avoid a situation where it cannot pay, and its triple-A ranking plunges all of a sudden,” Japan’s finance minister, Taro Aso, said last week.

For China, a U.S. default could mean a shock to China’s assets, effects on its currency issuing, and exchange rate fluctuations, Mei said.

“If the U.S. debt default happens, China and other investors will face great risks in their dollar-denominated assets,” Zhao said. “But I think it will hurt the U.S. itself the most. . . . A debt default will only cause a sharp fall in U.S. credibility.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...45b_story.html
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:26 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
It's incredible to me that this whole "debt crisis" is entirely avoidable and is just a product of political brinkmanship. Yet there are very real consequences to these games being played in Washington and the world is taking notice.

Is China right? Is it time to move away from the dollar and "de-Americanize" the world?
I don't think of this as a right vs wrong issue. China and many other countries that are critical of the U.S. have accepted the role the U.S. Dollar has played because it is cheaper than the alternative. The Tea Party (for lack of a better description) is raising the cost. If "the world" goes through with it, it will effectively cost the U.S. around $7B/year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage

Not an incredible sum like the Petrodollar warfare conspiracy theorists seem to think. But, not chump change either-- the National Science Foundation budget request for FY14 was $7.6B.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:41 PM   #14
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I don't think of this as a right vs wrong issue.
I'll differ with you in this one aspect ... the internal political conflicts the U.S. is all too often indulging in have consequences, yet it would appear that our politicians don't recognize them.

The right or wrong isn't between China and the U.S. It's between political factions that have forsaken the ability to compromise and choose instead to engage in bullheaded brinksmanship. That is where I find the "wrong".

China is simply responding to a completely unnecessary fight that threatens their economic interests and I completely understand their befuddlement and their desire to change the system in order to reduce economic dependence on a country seemingly bent on it's own destruction.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:47 PM   #15
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Now that they have many of our jobs and purchased many US companies...

Few of my friends just lost their jobs this past month - offshoring.

I guess the shutdown has taken away what is truly going on.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:17 PM   #16
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The main reason the Chinese want a " Deamerianized " world, is to have a " Chinese world " based on their ideals.

Right now, the American system of mostly free trade with itself and around the world is pretty free and open.

Do not expect the same with a Chinese system.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:22 PM   #17
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Right now, the American system of mostly free trade with itself and around the world is pretty free and open.
Is this satire?
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:39 PM   #18
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Is this satire?
Pretty much, ,maybe I wasn't heavy enough on the sarcasm
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:39 PM   #19
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The main reason the Chinese want a " Deamerianized " world, is to have a " Chinese world " based on their ideals.

Right now, the American system of mostly free trade with itself and around the world is pretty free and open.

Do not expect the same with a Chinese system.
It's very complex but the Chinese have many concerns. First, they have huge sums of money due to so many Chinese products paid for by America and they have to park that money somewhere. They place a lot of it into American debt (securities). But the threat of the value of those investments becoming less, or worthless, is an immediate concern that I can't disagree with them for feeling. Our economic system is nearing the end of its current lifespan and it would seem in the coming years we'll be forced to redesign our entire monetary system.

The Chinese also want power. If the Yuan becomes the world currency, they gain control of what the US has enjoyed for so long. They're already making inroads, too, on several fronts, one of which is described here: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ch..._132786974.htm

China is also pushing for the US to continue to limit or remove weapons from its citizens. They're publicly advocating for it in the media, which to me would suggest if their ever was a larger war that included US soil, the citizens would no longer be the amateur fighting force, which includes many ex-military and ex-law enforcement people, that Asian countries have feared (a gun behind every blade of grass). http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/...s-in-u-s/?_r=0
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:48 PM   #20
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China is also pushing for the US to continue to limit or remove weapons from its citizens. They're publicly advocating for it in the media, which to me would suggest if their ever was a larger war that included US soil, the citizens would no longer be the amateur fighting force, which includes many ex-military and ex-law enforcement people, that Asian countries have feared (a gun behind every blade of grass).
Is this satire too? Have you actually read the article you linked to?
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:58 PM   #21
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Is this satire too? Have you actually read the article you linked to?
To be fair he did say, "... which to me would suggest ..."

Though I will agree with you that to infer that from the story requires a huge leap, as nothing even remotely near that appears in the article.

But it does help illustrate the mindset of some gun advocates ... they see confiscation behind every blade of grass.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 06:59 PM   #22
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Is this satire too? Have you actually read the article you linked to?
Of course I read it. They have their own issues with weapons, murder, murder by weapons other than guns, mental illness, etc. But I wouldn't put too much faith in China appearing the "good guy" by appealing to the US to stopping or slowing the murders among its people. Irony at its best, I'd say, for a country that has a long history of human abuses and atrocities. They want the US to be weaker at any opportunity.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 07:01 PM   #23
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They want the US to be weaker at any opportunity.
Then you'd think they would welcome default.

Yet they don't.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 07:12 PM   #24
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To be fair he did say, "... which to me would suggest ..."

Though I will agree with you that to infer that from the story requires a huge leap, as nothing even remotely near that appears in the article.

But it does help illustrate the mindset of some gun advocates ... they see confiscation behind every blade of grass.
I wasn't attempting to suggest China will invade the US. I was suggesting it would weaken the US against any foreign invasion should something so awful actually transpire. We have historical accounts of the very arms held by US citizens being a deterrent against an attack on the homeland.

An unarmed citizenship is obviously weaker than one that is armed during a foreign invasion. Our own military faced a lot of opposition from local tribes during combat operations in the Middle East, much of it being just armed locals that weren't part of any organized unit. Their job would have been much easier with an unarmed group of citizens who were not military or opposition forces. It takes a great deal of energy and resources to deal with issues like that.

----------

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Then you'd think they would welcome default.

Yet they don't.
Of course they don't. They hold too much of the debt to want to see it zero'd out if things just collapse. It's in their interest to move into the position we hold as currency of the world gradually, but before our economy collapses.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 08:01 PM   #25
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Of course they don't. They hold too much of the debt to want to see it zero'd out if things just collapse. It's in their interest to move into the position we hold as currency of the world gradually, but before our economy collapses.
Exactly. Yet you were the one who said ...

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Originally Posted by SMDBill View Post
They want the US to be weaker at any opportunity.
While now we've established that it's any opportunity minus at least one.


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An unarmed citizenship is obviously weaker than one that is armed during a foreign invasion. Our own military faced a lot of opposition from local tribes during combat operations in the Middle East, much of it being just armed locals that weren't part of any organized unit. Their job would have been much easier with an unarmed group of citizens who were not military or opposition forces. It takes a great deal of energy and resources to deal with issues like that.
Two points.

The first, I'll agree that Iraq and Afghanistan prove that arms in the hands of private citizens can be an obstacle to invading/occupying forces.

But I believe the real lesson behind both those wars is that occupation is in itself a highly questionable end. What would China (or any other country) gain from invading and occupying the U.S.? Simply mounting an invasion across the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and maintaining the occupying forces would be a monumental task. And the U.S. is so big that I simply can't see how any country could control it. What would be gained by attempting it?

The second point is clearly demonstrated in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and that is once socio-political order breaks down, the citizens break into factions and spend as much time fighting against themselves as against their occupier.

I never hear gun advocates acknowledge this point. They always seem to romanticize defending against a tyrannical government or foreign occupier and don't want to admit that they'd end up turning their weapons against their fellow countrymen. Yet when wars break a country apart we see this happen time and time again. That's the lesson that I'm afraid avid gun advocates haven't yet learned.
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