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Old Oct 15, 2013, 08:43 AM   #1
rdowns
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Cognitive Dissonance- Obamacare

Many Americans oppose Obamacare and want it repealed, but at the same time, most Americans strongly support most of the law's individual provisions. How does this seeming contradiction make sense? How can some people be so damn ignorant?

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“I don’t think that the government should be involved in health care or health insurance,” says Greg Collett, a 41-year-old software developer in Caldwell, Idaho, who would rather pay the fine for now -- $95 the first year -- than signup.

“I calculated it out and it is cheaper for me for the next four years to pay the fine rather than get coverage,” Collett said. “At some point where it would make financial sense to pay for insurance rather than pay fines, I will make the decision from a financial standpoint.”
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Collett, who is married and has 10 children, says the kids are covered by Medicaid, the joint state-federal health insurance plan for people with low income and children who are not covered.
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Mark, a 51-year-old contractor in Colorado, recently worked through the pain of a broken rib because he lacks health insurance. He’ll be signing up, even though his truck carries a bumper sticker that spells out Obama’s name as “One big-ass mistake, America”.
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health...are-8C11338371
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 08:50 AM   #2
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One moron doesn't (necessarily) represent the country.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 08:59 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by ohbrilliance View Post
One moron doesn't (necessarily) represent the country.

Well, I quoted 2 morons and the polls that show many opposed to Obamacare while support for individual parts of the law get approvals in the 60-70% range.

IMO, negative campaigning, identify politics and misinformation campaigns (remember death panels, IRS lies etc.) have been effective in making people oppose the law without knowing the facts of the law.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 09:20 AM   #4
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IMO, negative campaigning, identify politics and misinformation campaigns (remember death panels, IRS lies etc.) have been effective in making people oppose the law without knowing the facts of the law.
I can completely empathise with you. Tony Abbott was recently elected here on a campaign of lies and misinformation that the electorate fell for.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 09:41 AM   #5
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You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can fool those Americans looking to a fictional past rather than to the future just about any ol' time.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:19 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Well, I quoted 2 morons and the polls that show many opposed to Obamacare while support for individual parts of the law get approvals in the 60-70% range.

IMO, negative campaigning, identify politics and misinformation campaigns (remember death panels, IRS lies etc.) have been effective in making people oppose the law without knowing the facts of the law.
Well, it is brilliant politics. At the expense of the entire country. By focusing on Obamacare you get the racist 18% to salivate every single time. By dragging in the budget and debt ceiling, you create what could wind up as a national emergency, forcing everyone's attention on these three issues, and only these three issues.

And, by doing so, you completely take the momentum out of what could have been a very successful honeymoon period of a President who won by a mile, and who could have made major progress on immigration reform, gun control, the environment, and rising inequality.

Last edited by jnpy!$4g3cwk; Oct 15, 2013 at 02:42 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:24 AM   #7
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They will never admit it, but it's all about political power. This kind of health care initiative has been embraced by Republicans until a Democrat tries to move on it. They (GOP) just can't stand it because it represents a loss of power/control.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
It's all about political power. This kind of health care initiative has been embraced by Republicans until a Democrat tries to move on it. They (GOP) just can't stand it because it represents a loss of power/control.
I also think the fact that he is BLACK, does have a lot to do with the hate.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:29 AM   #9
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I also think the fact that he is BLACK, does have a lot to do with the hate.
I agree this is part of the equation for the racist element of the GOP.
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Last edited by Huntn; Oct 15, 2013 at 12:49 PM.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:35 AM   #10
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No surprise to me. I bet many of those who rally at Tea Party events were one of those who clogged up the healthcare site on day one looking to get covered.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 11:41 AM   #11
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Americans have spent their lives learning to mistrust the institution, the very idea of healthcare. More of something that really doesn't reform it, is a tough pill to swallow. Hopefully this is a transitional step to something better.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 12:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Well, I quoted 2 morons and the polls that show many opposed to Obamacare while support for individual parts of the law get approvals in the 60-70% range.
That doesn't really mean much, truthfully. I support the provisions requiring plans to cover preexisting conditions, but I don't support requiring employers to provide coverage, nor do I support making some people pay more so that others can pay less or not at all.

As a whole, I don't support the law; not that I believe there aren't good elements to it.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 12:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tomorrow View Post
That doesn't really mean much, truthfully. I support the provisions requiring plans to cover preexisting conditions, but I don't support requiring employers to provide coverage, nor do I support making some people pay more so that others can pay less or not at all.

As a whole, I don't support the law; not that I believe there aren't good elements to it.
In this case, moving forward is far from ideal, but it is move forward or remain forever static. This what the GOP prefers, the status quo, especially if it is an initiate pushed by a Democrat President.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 12:53 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tomorrow View Post
That doesn't really mean much, truthfully. I support the provisions requiring plans to cover preexisting conditions, but I don't support requiring employers to provide coverage, nor do I support making some people pay more so that others can pay less or not at all.

As a whole, I don't support the law; not that I believe there aren't good elements to it.
98% of employers with 50+ employees already provide healthcare to their employees. This isn't some radical change of thought on how we deliver healthcare. As for paying more, we already pay ridiculous prices because we are already paying for those without insurance. The idea behind the individual mandate (no more freeloaders) is to get these people medical care outside the emergency room which will lower costs for all.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 01:25 PM   #15
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The idea behind the individual mandate (no more freeloaders) is to get these people medical care outside the emergency room which will lower costs for all.
And by "all" you mean "some."

I can't compare for myself, because I changed jobs at the end of September, but my premiums at my old job were set to rise a little over 60% from this year to next, and my wife's premiums are going up just under 50%. Coverage in my case would have stayed the same, while her deductibles were set to rise. Open letters from both her employer and my former employer directly attributed the changes to the ACA. How exactly does that lower our costs?

In any event, it doesn't change that fact that it's entirely reasonable and plausible to find certain aspects of the ACA agreeable, without agreeing with the entire piece of legislation.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 01:36 PM   #16
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I can't compare for myself, because I changed jobs at the end of September, but my premiums at my old job were set to rise a little over 60% from this year to next, and my wife's premiums are going up just under 50%. Coverage in my case would have stayed the same, while her deductibles were set to rise. Open letters from both her employer and my former employer directly attributed the changes to the ACA. How exactly does that lower our costs?
Since we're swapping anecdotes ...

My employee contribution to my healthcare costs dropped 100%. Seriously. Zero.

Was that due to Obamacare? I doubt it. Probably has more to do with what my union was able to negotiate with the healthcare provider.

However, I'd likewise question what your costs had to do with Obamacare. I think in general we see prices rise or fall and attribute those fluctuations to the most convenient cause, in this case Obamacare, when the real causes have little, if anything to do with it.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 02:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdowns
The idea behind the individual mandate (no more freeloaders) is to get these people medical care outside the emergency room which will lower costs for all.
And by "all" you mean "some."
Try this version:
"The idea behind the individual mandate (no more freeloaders) is to get these people medical care outside the emergency room which will reduce the rate of increase for all. Yes, all."

Your premiums were going up before the ACA. Your premiums would have continued to go up without the ACA. That your premiums are going up with the ACA is not because of the ACA. Nor are car prices and house prices going up because of the ACA. The ACA doesn't intend for everybody's costs to go down, but it's intended to make the rate of increase something reasonable, with overall prices that are affordable.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 02:44 PM   #18
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Your premiums were going up before the ACA.
I doubt it, since they stayed the same last year and went down the year before that.

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That your premiums are going up with the ACA is not because of the ACA.
Well, yes, it is. Our premiums are rising because of the additional coverage we don't need, but the ACA requires the insurance company to provide. Things like coverage for preexisting conditions (not applicable in my family). Things like 25-year-old children (again, not applicable in my family).

It's really simple, economically speaking - you really can't expect to get something for nothing.

The way insurance works - whether health insurance, car insurance, or whatever - is that the total amount collected in premiums has to exceed the total amount of benefits paid, or the financial backing doesn't work. No company would be able to stay in business otherwise, and nobody would enter the market. When you add things that need to be covered, including adding more people (people ages 18 to 25 tend to go uninsured at a greater rate than most of the population, for example), covering conditions you previously didn't (like preexisting ailments), etc., you increase your paid benefits. As such, you have to increase your revenues, which you do by raising premiums.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 03:10 PM   #19
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Well, yes, it is. Our premiums are rising because of the additional coverage we don't need, but the ACA requires the insurance company to provide. Things like coverage for preexisting conditions (not applicable in my family). Things like 25-year-old children (again, not applicable in my family).
You should say, "Our premiums are rising because of the additional coverage we I don't need ..."

But that's the point of pooled risk, you pay for what everybody needs, not just you.

It's funny, because I've never had children, yet it never occurred to me to wave my little fists in anger over the fact that I'd be paying for 25-year-old children staying on their parents plans.

Different perspectives I guess.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 03:46 PM   #20
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Try this version:
"The idea behind the individual mandate (no more freeloaders) is to get these people medical care outside the emergency room which will reduce the rate of increase for all. Yes, all."

Your premiums were going up before the ACA. Your premiums would have continued to go up without the ACA. That your premiums are going up with the ACA is not because of the ACA. Nor are car prices and house prices going up because of the ACA. The ACA doesn't intend for everybody's costs to go down, but it's intended to make the rate of increase something reasonable, with overall prices that are affordable.
The ACA was intended to pad the pockets of insurance companies who make political donations, allowing those companies to continue increasing their prices under threat of taxation.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 04:21 PM   #21
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You should say, "Our premiums are rising because of the additional coverage we I don't need ..."
"...or wish to subsidize."

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But that's the point of pooled risk, you pay for what everybody needs, not just you.
That's pretty much what I just said, adding that my costs went up as a result.

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It's funny, because I've never had children, yet it never occurred to me to wave my little fists in anger over the fact that I'd be paying for 25-year-old children staying on their parents plans.
Not sure why that's funny, but:

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Different perspectives I guess.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 04:40 PM   #22
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No surprise to me. I bet many of those who rally at Tea Party events were one of those who clogged up the healthcare site on day one looking to get covered.
How many people do you estimate have enrolled at this point? You seem confident that the glitches were due to an overtaxed enrollment system.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 04:41 PM   #23
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"...or wish to subsidize."
Is that supposed to turn insurance into a dirty word?

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Old Oct 15, 2013, 05:13 PM   #24
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Is that supposed to turn insurance into a dirty word?

I don't blame the insurance companies.
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Old Oct 15, 2013, 05:50 PM   #25
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"...or wish to subsidize."



That's pretty much what I just said, adding that my costs went up as a result.



Not sure why that's funny, but:
Being a part of a society means sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.
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