Help with G4 QuickSilver

128keaton · Nov 2, 2013

Happy go lucky, you rumorees! I got a G4 QuickSilver for the price of free. The PRAM battery died and they replaced it with 6V (ouch!) and then we got a 3.6V from radio shack. Now, when you push the power button, it flashes, the fan spins and then it goes off. Do y'all have any suggestions?

128keaton · Nov 2, 2013

I have tried a lot of stuff, just was about to buy a new mono and wanted your input.

Swampus · Nov 2, 2013

You should probably list the things you've already tried. Do you know if there were any problems before the incorrect battery was installed?

Without knowing more specifics, I guess my first approach would probably be something like this (steps one through four really don't need to be done in any specific order):

1) Remove all ram and reinsert one stick (don't just remove all but one stick, you actually want to reseat the singe stick that you're going to try to power on with in step 6).

2) Remove the video card and all PCI cards.

3) Disconnect the power cables from all drives.

4) Remove battery.

5) Only if it has not already been done, reset the PMU at this point. Resetting the PMU is not something that you want to do more than once between power cycles.

6) Try to start the machine.

Did you get a chime? If yes, start adding things back one at a time starting with the video card. If no chime, next step would be to test the PSU. Do you have a multi-meter?

128keaton · Nov 2, 2013

Swampus said:
You should probably list the things you've already tried. Do you know if there were any problems before the incorrect battery was installed?

Without knowing more specifics, I guess my first approach would probably be something like this (steps one through four really don't need to be done in any specific order):

1) Remove all ram and reinsert one stick (don't just remove all but one stick, you actually want to reseat the singe stick that you're going to try to power on with in step 6).

2) Remove the video card and all PCI cards.

3) Disconnect the power cables from all drives.

4) Remove battery.

5) Only if it has not already been done, reset the PMU at this point. Resetting the PMU is not something that you want to do more than once between power cycles.

6) Try to start the machine.

Did you get a chime? If yes, start adding things back one at a time starting with the video card. If no chime, next step would be to test the PSU. Do you have a multi-meter?

Yes, I do have a multi-meter, but for safety's sake, could you tell me which pins to put the multimeter in? Preferably a detailed explanation. I did not get a chime by doing what you said to do above. I think, during our previous troubleshooting, we did press the CUDA switch more than once, between the power cycles. I might also note that there is no "red LED" on the board that I can find.

Swampus · Nov 2, 2013

128keaton said:
Yes, I do have a multi-meter, but for safety's sake, could you tell me which pins to put the multimeter in? Preferably a detailed explanation. I did not get a chime by doing what you said to do above. I think, during our previous troubleshooting, we did press the CUDA switch more than once, between the power cycles. I might also note that there is no "red LED" on the board that I can find.

Yes, specifically, you want to test the trickle (or "always on") voltage. Put the black probe to pin 11 and the red probe to pin 22. Leave the PSU connected to the motherboard. Just wiggle your test probes in where the wires are sticking out. Set your meter to DC volts. You're looking for 25V.

Pin 22 is the only white wire, so that's pretty easy to locate. Pin 11 (ground/black) is right next to it on the other side. There is nothing dangerous about this. It's all low voltage DC. And there isn't much that you could do to cause damage to the computer. Even if you hooked up the meter backwards, you'd just register negative voltage (or register nothing if the PSU is bad). You do need to push the probes in there pretty hard so that they make contact with the metal connector.

Here is a pinout:

Swampus · Nov 3, 2013

Also, were you able to determine whether or not the problem started with the installation of the incorrect battery? Was it booting before that? Or did they try replacing the battery because it wasn't booting?

128keaton · Nov 3, 2013

Swampus said:
Also, were you able to determine whether or not the problem started with the installation of the incorrect battery? Was it booting before that? Or did they try replacing the battery because it wasn't booting?

Story is that they had an IT guy look at it and determine the battery was dead, and they went out and bought the wrong one. It was working before the battery died. I got the PSU to turn on by jumping the GND and the (i forgot, long day today). Anyway, I think the Motherboard is shot, the lights don't come on, no activity. I've taken it apart and cleaned it, I've done everything. I've tried known good/compatible ram and it does not make a difference. Any more suggestions?

Swampus · Nov 3, 2013

128keaton said:
...It was working before the battery died. I got the PSU to turn on by jumping the GND and the (i forgot, long day today). Anyway, I think the Motherboard is shot, the lights don't come on, no activity. I've taken it apart and cleaned it, I've done everything. I've tried known good/compatible ram and it does not make a difference. Any more suggestions?

Okay, so the point at which it stopped working was before the introduction of the 6 volt battery? According to the IT guy, it stopped working because the original battery had died? That's usually not going to happen. A dead battery usually just means that you have to reset your clock after a power outage.

If it had worked fine up until the point of the 6V battery, then yes, it would seem obvious that damage was caused to the motherboard at that point. But that's not the case, right? They wouldn't have taken it to a technician if it was working fine.

Hmmm. I suppose it's hard to argue with your initial instinct of replacing the motherboard, though. The best case scenario for that board now is a crashed PMU after the multiple resets between power cycles. It's also possible that the 6 volt battery caused damage. I really don't know about that part. Given the nature of the PRAM battery's job, there would need to be some form of regulation on that circuit, which would allow for some small range of input. 6 volts is a lot, but I'm not entirely sure that the board wouldn't survive such a mistake depending on exactly how voltage is regulated in that circuit. Still, it's possible that we have two problems here.

Another possible culprit for the original problem could be the CPU (either a bad processor card or just needing to be reseated).

If you want to try one more thing for free (almost free, since you'll need thermal compound, but you'll need that if you replace the motherboard anyway): Reseat the CPU. Remove the heatsink and you'll see that the daughtercard is held in place with four screws. Remove the daughtercard and then snap it back into place. It's the same principle as reseating memory or a video card. You'll need to clean the CPU and apply some fresh thermal compound before putting the heatsink back on. If you've never done it before, see this tutorial.

Beyond that, my only advice is this: Before buying a motherboard, check around to see if you can't actually purchase an entire working Quicksilver for the same that you're about to spend on the board alone. Often this will be possible and it would really be the way to go here. At a certain point in the troubleshooting process, there is just no substitute for being able to swap in known working parts. Also, if there are several options in good shape, you might choose one that is strong in an area where yours is lacking? Maybe get a stronger CPU? Stronger GPU? More RAM? USB card? Even at $20 more for a working QS, I think it would be the way to go. Buying individual parts in this case could put you on the losing side of the "buy parts until it works" game.

Swampus · Nov 4, 2013

On reseating the CPU: I shouldn't have made that sound like a trivial thing to try. It's a standard troubleshooting procedure that really does work sometimes. In the service manual, Apple listed it as the very next thing that should be tried after a PMU reset.

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

Swampus said:
On reseating the CPU: I shouldn't have made that sound like a trivial thing to try. It's a standard troubleshooting procedure that really does work sometimes. In the service manual, Apple listed it as the very next thing that should be tried after a PMU reset.

Honestly, the G4 might just be used as a museum piece or media server, and I do not have a lot of music. This computer has a 1.5 GB of ram, the high end video card(I can't remember), and 2 80GB 10,000 RPM hdds. I'll call my friend for the full story regarding the battery, but the lights on the motherboard never turn on, like the little red one. It might be a crashed PMU. I did reseat the processor, and my friend said he removed the heatsink and the thermal paste did not "stick" to it. Here is the order of events based off of what I was told:
G4 won't boot -> 6v battery and with it won't turn on, at all (no lights!) -> given to my friend - > my friend got 3.6v battery, won't turn on, tried CUDA cycle. I just got back from reseating the CPU card and adding some paste. It might be the processor, but like i said above, no lights on the motherboard. I turned it on without the heatsink and the processor stayed cold, the CPU fan did not turn either. I know I risked my CPU, but SCIENCE! I'll ask my friend about the history and story of the machine whenever I can talk to him.
If it did need a new CPU, here is a cheap one that is viable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-G4-Po...4-A-/121173612369?pt=CPUs&hash=item1c36829751

havokalien · Nov 4, 2013

Power supply

It's the power supply or the power button itself. It's years old any of the capacitors in the power supply, the motherboard, or the CPU card could all start to go.

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

havokalien said:
It's the power supply or the power button itself. It's years old any of the capacitors in the power supply, the motherboard, or the CPU card could all start to go.

Um. The PSU is good, I crossed pin 15 and GND and the PSU/HDDs spun up like it was booting. I guess I can try the power button, but the lights on the power button come on and stuff spins up, but stops after a second. I'll have a video up to prove it. Edit: here it is: g4 spin! I know I keep stating this, but:

The red LED on the logic board indicates that there is power to the board and does not imply a fault condition. Hardware such as DIMMs and PCI cards should not be installed or removed when the LED is On.

My motherboard is supposed to have a red LED. I also checked and my 3.6v battery never goes under load, when I turn it on, it stays at 3.6.

Swampus · Nov 4, 2013

128keaton said:
...I know I risked my CPU, but SCIENCE! I'll ask my friend about the history and story of the machine whenever I can talk to him.
If it did need a new CPU, here is a cheap one that is viable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-G4-Po...4-A-/121173612369?pt=CPUs&hash=item1c36829751

Science! Yeah, that's a cheap CPU. And the 733 should be plenty if you're just planning to use it as a music server.

So that's the plan? First try replacing the logic board, then, if needed, the CPU card? I can't think of a better approach. Let us know how it goes.

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

Swampus said:
Science! Yeah, that's a cheap CPU. And the 733 should be plenty if you're just planning to use it as a music server.

So that's the plan? First try replacing the logic board, then, if needed, the CPU card? I can't think of a better approach. Let us know how it goes.

Okay! Great. Feels better to have your blessing! The logic board has a nice return policy, so I should not lose!

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

Swampus said:
Science! Yeah, that's a cheap CPU. And the 733 should be plenty if you're just planning to use it as a music server.

So that's the plan? First try replacing the logic board, then, if needed, the CPU card? I can't think of a better approach. Let us know how it goes.

I am seeing the red LED. I really wonder if it is just a crashed PMU.

havokalien · Nov 4, 2013

Cuda button?

You didn't reset the Cuda switch yet? That would be my first suggestion. And start from a Cd first. Just as a good boot pram setup as new if you have one. It never hurts. If you don't have an OS cd then at least reset the button.

I thought you had already done that. The quicksilver is not prone to power supply issues or CPU issues like the MDD but they are definately age and computer fault related overall.

With the unit on and HD spinning did all the pins register proper voltages? Is the video card seated and dust free? Those have been known to cause issue. Some people put in PC video cards and don't realize they don't work, also some cards from the MDD and G5's will not work in the QS. I have some tested spares if you need one.

Good luck.

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

havokalien said:
You didn't reset the Cuda switch yet? That would be my first suggestion. And start from a Cd first. Just as a good boot pram setup as new if you have one. It never hurts. If you don't have an OS cd then at least reset the button.

I thought you had already done that. The quicksilver is not prone to power supply issues or CPU issues like the MDD but they are definately age and computer fault related overall.

With the unit on and HD spinning did all the pins register proper voltages? Is the video card seated and dust free? Those have been known to cause issue. Some people put in PC video cards and don't realize they don't work, also some cards from the MDD and G5's will not work in the QS. I have some tested spares if you need one.

Good luck.

I have pushed the Cuda switch, but it might have been pushed multiple times. the GFX card is one that it came with. I cannot test all pins because it only stays on for a second. I just want to hear the "bong" noise, then I can fix everything else. It might be a CPU issue, but I just don't know!

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

havokalien said:
You didn't reset the Cuda switch yet? That would be my first suggestion. And start from a Cd first. Just as a good boot pram setup as new if you have one. It never hurts. If you don't have an OS cd then at least reset the button.

I thought you had already done that. The quicksilver is not prone to power supply issues or CPU issues like the MDD but they are definately age and computer fault related overall.

With the unit on and HD spinning did all the pins register proper voltages? Is the video card seated and dust free? Those have been known to cause issue. Some people put in PC video cards and don't realize they don't work, also some cards from the MDD and G5's will not work in the QS. I have some tested spares if you need one.

Good luck.

With the clip in, I put a jumper from ground to power and everything spun up, but the processor fan stayed off. Uh oh. I removed it and cleaned it more and hooked it up to an desktop PS. It was stuttering badly. More cleaning and encouraging! After a while, it spun fine and I put it back in. Deduction: The CPU got too hot and fried itself. The fan spins happily, but the heatsink remains stone cold (I even took off the heatsink and the CPU was cold). Here is what I think the story was: CPU cooked itself, called basic IT, replaced the probably 3.4V battery with a 6v, still not working, send to friend, sent to me.

havokalien · Nov 4, 2013

Good luck with a new CPU.

If that does not work let me know I have a quicksilver that if you need parts (it works) I could help out.

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

havokalien said:
If that does not work let me know I have a quicksilver that if you need parts (it works) I could help out.

You'd be willing to part out your QS? Wow! Thanks! I found a CPU here and I hope to get it soon:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-820-1...N29-/321239559930?pt=CPUs&hash=item4acb5eaefa

havokalien · Nov 4, 2013

Spare

I'd rather not but I have more than most and help where I can. It's a spare unit. The guy gave it to me and said it didn't work, it was just a dead battery. Missing the zip bezel but works when I use it, but shipping cost for the whole thing would be spendy.

Swampus · Nov 4, 2013

128keaton said:
With the clip in, I put a jumper from ground to power and everything spun up, but the processor fan stayed off. Uh oh. I removed it and cleaned it more and hooked it up to an desktop PS. It was stuttering badly. More cleaning and encouraging! After a while, it spun fine and I put it back in. Deduction: The CPU got too hot and fried itself. The fan spins happily, but the heatsink remains stone cold (I even took off the heatsink and the CPU was cold). Here is what I think the story was: CPU cooked itself, called basic IT, replaced the probably 3.4V battery with a 6v, still not working, send to friend, sent to me.

Oh, good find! I think that's a sound deduction too.

Honestly, without that weird battery variable here, I would lean more toward replacing the CPU as a next step anyway.

128keaton · Nov 4, 2013

Swampus said:
Oh, good find! I think that's a sound deduction too.

Honestly, without that weird battery variable here, I would lean more toward replacing the CPU as a next step anyway.

Yeah, that was what got me thinking about the motherboard, but Im going to get the CPU first. The sad thing is that it was a 933 MHz and I cannot find a 933 MHz anywhere, just 733s

havokalien · Nov 4, 2013

Best wishes

Good luck and keep us posted.

Swampus · Nov 4, 2013

128keaton said:
Yeah, that was what got me thinking about the motherboard, but Im going to get the CPU first. The sad thing is that it was a 933 MHz and I cannot find a 933 MHz anywhere, just 733s

The 933 really is better if you can find it. It's not just the MHz difference, but but the 933 has 2 MB L3 cache. The 733 QS module has none. Again, though, if you're just using it to store and serve music, the 733 should suffice. If you're thinking that you'll want to use it for more, I might hold out for something better.

If you have concerns about the longevity of that CPU fan, the Vantec ThermoFlow TF 6025 is a pretty good replacement. It's temperature regulated.

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