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Apple's remaining surprise....4K at 60Hz.

M

MacVidCards

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I have been dealing with the details of running a current gen 4K display.

The one I got is identical to the one Apple has shown in photos with Mac Pro. (Sharp PN-K321, I have Asus PQ-321).

A little detail that hasn't been mentioned much is how these displays run. In order to get to 4K with today's parts, the displays actually run as 2 separate panels, each one is 1920x2160.

When you get boot screens, the right side half fires up, then the left. The speed of the pixel clock maxes out on one connection and requires this dual wide setup. Windows drivers make up for this using multi-display tech. AMD has called this "Eyefinity" and Nvidia has their own name. The driver looks at the PQ-321 as 2 displays but links them. This way they are able to run the display at 60HZ. You can do this with either a single DP 1.2 connection, or by "doubling down" on the HDMIs. Either way, the drivers compensate invisibly.

In OSX 10.9 there is currently NO WAY to run the display at 60Hz.

So, as it stands, 4K is kind of NOT READY for OSX yet. At 30Hz, you can see the mouse "hopping" across the screen. Boot into WIndows at 60 Hz and it smooths out nicely.

In effect, the whole 4K package isn't "gelled" yet. I imagine that future 4K displays will not require this kludge. There is no way that serious editing folks are going to settle for OSX 4K being half as good as booting into Windows.

I was thinking about this last night, and it hints at something.

Either:

1. Apple is going to "one more thing" us and have a 4K display announced for shipment in near future. It will be designed for Mac Pro and will solve this 60Hz dilemma.

2. Apple is going to include a 10.9.1 update for nMP that includes something akin to "Eyefinity" for the Dx00 cards to enable this monitor to run at 60Hz.

I have tried using ChangeRes-X without results. Part of it is I can't understand how to use the app, but Marcel wrote me back, he thinks there is a max pixel clock supported by OSX and running at 60Hz would exceed that.

So, either new display in the wings, or OS support for a Windows feature that we previously haven't had...or Apple is going to go stone deaf and pretend they don't hear all of the "Pros" complaining about being stuck at 30Hz in OSX.

Next 45 days will be interesting.
 
tamvly

tamvly

macrumors 6502a
Nov 11, 2007
571
18
Do I infer correctly from your post that there will be a "just for Apple" 4K monitor? If so, what does this imply for other brands?

I like my 30 ACD, but frankly, my NEC is a much better display.
 
Celedral

Celedral

macrumors 6502
May 29, 2008
332
14
Los Angeles
This is the one thing that's stopping me from grabbing a 4k monitor for editing. I want/need fluid motion for video playback and UI. Thanks for the info.
 
M

MacVidCards

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I have to say that currently the bleeding edge is a PITA.

Cross booting from OSX & Win is the biggest issue.

The lack of 60hz support in OSX is biggest problem. This is exacerbated by the goofiest, most poorly thought out controls imaginable on the display.

But currently, if you are working in Win and decide to switch to OSX you end up with half a display. Literally.

The left half is running at 1920x2160 and the right is black.

So to use DP in OSX, you have to switch back to SST from MST. It is between 6 and 8 button presses in precise order to do this. Then you get comfy and decide to switch back to Windows.

BANG you end up on an oddly compressed and distorted desktop.

The two OSs seem to battle with neither caring for how the other deals with 4K.

I think I will sit down and do some screen shots and engage community, hopefully there is some way to use 4K at 60hz in OSX.
 
N

nol2001

macrumors regular
Aug 15, 2013
173
285
UK
Preview users

I can't believe that the photographer who they said used 4K new Mac Pro at the keynote was not using 60Hz
 
jbg232

jbg232

macrumors 65816
Oct 15, 2007
1,148
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nol2001 said:
I can't believe that the photographer who they said used 4K new Mac Pro at the keynote was not using 60Hz
Click to expand...

I would assume the mac pro will support 60Hz, just not the rMBP at this time.
 
theSeb

theSeb

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Aug 10, 2010
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If the new Mac Pro cannot output 4k at 60 Hz, then I shall eat my hat. I don't have a hat, so I am going to buy one and then eat it.
 
M

MacVidCards

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nox-uk said:
Did anyone spot what monitor he was using?

Nox
Click to expand...

It was the Sharp version of the Asus I got.

I believe it is quite possible and hopefully true that it was running at 4K /60Hz.

I am just pointing out that with current equipment that is capable of outputting at 4K/60Hz, the Apple drivers currently don't allow it.

So, hopefully Apple is going to have an OS update at same time and allow this. The new rMBP came with much bragging about "4K" but can only do 4K at 30 Hz. Maybe it will gain it at same time.

Currently the Windows drivers that permit 4K/60Hz are using MST which is basically taking advantage of "Eye-Finity" style desktop bonding. So two completely separate monitors are linked via drivers. We have no such support in OSX currently, this is why I am very eager to see what nMP does and how it is done.
 
5

50548

Guest
Apr 17, 2005
5,039
2
Currently in Switzerland
MacVidCards said:
I have been dealing with the details of running a current gen 4K display.

The one I got is identical to the one Apple has shown in photos with Mac Pro. (Sharp PN-K321, I have Asus PQ-321).

A little detail that hasn't been mentioned much is how these displays run. In order to get to 4K with today's parts, the displays actually run as 2 separate panels, each one is 1920x2160.

When you get boot screens, the right side half fires up, then the left. The speed of the pixel clock maxes out on one connection and requires this dual wide setup. Windows drivers make up for this using multi-display tech. AMD has called this "Eyefinity" and Nvidia has their own name. The driver looks at the PQ-321 as 2 displays but links them. This way they are able to run the display at 60HZ. You can do this with either a single DP 1.2 connection, or by "doubling down" on the HDMIs. Either way, the drivers compensate invisibly.

In OSX 10.9 there is currently NO WAY to run the display at 60Hz.

So, as it stands, 4K is kind of NOT READY for OSX yet. At 30Hz, you can see the mouse "hopping" across the screen. Boot into WIndows at 60 Hz and it smooths out nicely.

In effect, the whole 4K package isn't "gelled" yet. I imagine that future 4K displays will not require this kludge. There is no way that serious editing folks are going to settle for OSX 4K being half as good as booting into Windows.

I was thinking about this last night, and it hints at something.

Either:

1. Apple is going to "one more thing" us and have a 4K display announced for shipment in near future. It will be designed for Mac Pro and will solve this 60Hz dilemma.

2. Apple is going to include a 10.9.1 update for nMP that includes something akin to "Eyefinity" for the Dx00 cards to enable this monitor to run at 60Hz.

I have tried using ChangeRes-X without results. Part of it is I can't understand how to use the app, but Marcel wrote me back, he thinks there is a max pixel clock supported by OSX and running at 60Hz would exceed that.

So, either new display in the wings, or OS support for a Windows feature that we previously haven't had...or Apple is going to go stone deaf and pretend they don't hear all of the "Pros" complaining about being stuck at 30Hz in OSX.

Next 45 days will be interesting.
Click to expand...

It's clear that Apple already has a custom version of Mavericks for the nMP and will support 60Hz...to think otherwise is ludicrous, particularly considering that Apple is at the leading edge of creative markets.
 
K

kolax

macrumors G3
Mar 20, 2007
9,181
115
I imagine OS X 10.9.2 will support this.

.1 is due out soon, and .2 is being seeded internally at the moment too, which will probably be released with the new Mac Pros.
 
G

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
7,662
1,694
Didn't they say only 2 4K displays would be supported off of one Mac Pro?

That leads me to think they are doing some sort of Eyefinity thing where basically they're throwing an entire GPU at each 4k display.
 
jbg232

jbg232

macrumors 65816
Oct 15, 2007
1,148
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iBug2 said:
Haven't seen it mentioned once on the website for the rMBP or the keynote.
Click to expand...

It's mentioned in three places:

1. Apple's specifications page for the rMBP
Support for 1080p resolution at up to 60Hz
Support for 3840-by-2160 resolution at 30Hz
Support for 4096-by-2160 resolution at 24Hz
Click to expand...

2. The apple thunderbolt page
Now with Thunderbolt 2 built into the new Mac Pro and MacBook Pro with Retina display, you can connect the latest 4K desktop displays and get double the bandwidth for your peripherals. And the two generations of Thunderbolt technology are compatible with each other.
Click to expand...

3. This specific page addressing 4K and the rMBP
4K Ultra HDTVs using these configurations are supported via the HDMI port:
3840-by-2160 resolution at 30Hz
4096-by-2160 resolution at 24Hz
Click to expand...
 
theSeb

theSeb

macrumors 604
Aug 10, 2010
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jbg232 said:
It's mentioned in three places:

1. Apple's specifications page for the rMBP


2. The apple thunderbolt page


3. This specific page addressing 4K and the rMBP
Click to expand...

TB2 supports DP 1.2 so there is no reason why, from a hardware point of view, the new Mac Pro (and the 2013 rMBP) should not be able to support 4K at 60Hz using the TB2 ports. Hopefully this is fixed via a software update in the new future.

Anandtech said:
I had higher hopes for what Thunderbolt 2 would be (moving to PCIe Gen 3 for example), but it looks like the spec is primarily designed around enabling 4K as well as incrementally increasing storage performance.
Click to expand...
 
I

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,531
851
jbg232 said:
It's mentioned in three places:

1. Apple's specifications page for the rMBP


2. The apple thunderbolt page


3. This specific page addressing 4K and the rMBP
Click to expand...

That is HDMI video output. I thought you meant they touted rMBP for 4K display workflows like they did with Mac Pro. They didn't. It says

"Dual display and video mirroring: Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display and up to 2560 by 1600 pixels on up to two external displays, both at millions of colors"
 
jbg232

jbg232

macrumors 65816
Oct 15, 2007
1,148
10
iBug2 said:
That is HDMI video output. I thought you meant they touted rMBP for 4K display workflows like they did with Mac Pro. They didn't. It says

"Dual display and video mirroring: Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display and up to 2560 by 1600 pixels on up to two external displays, both at millions of colors"
Click to expand...

No... the 2nd link clearly refers to 4K support through thunderbolt. As the previous poster mentioned, the thunderbolt 2 chip support mini displayport 1.2 technology which support multi-stream video output which supports 4K resolution at 60hz through the THUNDERBOLT/MINIDISPLAY PORT, NOT the HDMI port.
 
M

Mike777

macrumors member
May 1, 2010
51
0
As IF the retina macbook pro has 2x2gb fire pro cards which are especially designed to handle large resolutions and data sets.

Not even sure why thread exists.
 
M

MacVidCards

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Mike777 said:
As IF the retina macbook pro has 2x2gb fire pro cards which are especially designed to handle large resolutions and data sets.

Not even sure why thread exists.
Click to expand...

Because 4k is the future

Because the hardware to do it already exists in Mac Products

Because it is currently turned off in software

Because it will obviously be turned "on" in software very soon.

Need any other reasons?

How about it's more interesting and relevant than next "squawking birds" IOS release?
 
M

MacVidCards

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jbg232 said:
No... the 2nd link clearly refers to 4K support through thunderbolt. As the previous poster mentioned, the thunderbolt 2 chip support mini displayport 1.2 technology which support multi-stream video output which supports 4K resolution at 60hz through the THUNDERBOLT/MINIDISPLAY PORT, NOT the HDMI port.
Click to expand...

Yes, the other port it isn't supported through.:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1666755/

I don't think I have articulated the meaning of this well.

Currently several Macs have hardware that is capable of 4K at 60Hz.

As of right this second, I don't think there is any way to USE the hardware like that unless you BOOT INTO WINDOWS.

To enable this ability requires that Apple change how display drivers work in a fundamental sense. So it is possible that there is an Eyefinity type display support coming with nMP.

I am not just typing because my fingers need the exercise. There is something else around corner that we don't know about and "changes" things. Either an Apple 4K display, or a new way to run displays in general. There is currently no framework in OSX that permits 4K at 60Hz.

Several poeple have typed in "but DP 1.2 does"...yes, it does...WHEN YOU BOOT INTO WINDOWS. So currently, if you want bleeding edge tech in a Mac, you need to BOOT INTO WINDOWS. Unless they are content leaving 4K support a joke whilst simultaneously bragging about it, SOMETHING NEW IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.
 
jbg232

jbg232

macrumors 65816
Oct 15, 2007
1,148
10
MacVidCards said:
Yes, the other port it isn't supported through.:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1666755/

I don't think I have articulated the meaning of this well.

Currently several Macs have hardware that is capable of 4K at 60Hz.

As of right this second, I don't think there is any way to USE the hardware like that unless you BOOT INTO WINDOWS.

To enable this ability requires that Apple change how display drivers work in a fundamental sense. So it is possible that there is an Eyefinity type display support coming with nMP.

I am not just typing because my fingers need the exercise. There is something else around corner that we don't know about and "changes" things. Either an Apple 4K display, or a new way to run displays in general. There is currently no framework in OSX that permits 4K at 60Hz.

Several poeple have typed in "but DP 1.2 does"...yes, it does...WHEN YOU BOOT INTO WINDOWS. So currently, if you want bleeding edge tech in a Mac, you need to BOOT INTO WINDOWS. Unless they are content leaving 4K support a joke whilst simultaneously bragging about it, SOMETHING NEW IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know... I wrote the post you referenced me too :)
DP 1.2 is supported hardware wise, just not on os x side.
 
N

Not That Future

macrumors newbie
Oct 23, 2013
26
0
Chicago
Now this is something to look forward to! Thanks for the heads up OP, I am nearly 100% positive Apple will be releasing new Thunderbolt displays alongside the nMP. Wasn't the first TB display released alongside the premier of Thunderbolt 1, on the rMBP I believe?

As everyone's pointed out, it would be backwards and utterly stupid for Apple not to put out a new display. I still have my doubts of 4K coming from them this year (simply because of costs, display manufacturers, availability, etc), but a refresh/redesign is vastly overdue. Apple would be shooting itself in the foot if they didn't deliver on new displays...
 
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