Yonah Virtualization

chicagdan · Dec 21, 2005, 06:39 PM

Everyone keeps talking about the dual core aspect of Yonah, but perhaps the best feature is VT, Intel's Virtualization Technology. According to this article, VThttp://www.nordichardware.com/news,2670.html is basically VMWare on a chip -- meaning that the new Intel Mac's will be fully capable of running OS X, Windows, Linux, OS/2, whatever, simultaneously in a system much like fast user switching, all with hyperthreading and dual core capability.

So everyone who keeps asking "can I dual boot?" ... "will there be a Virtual PC" ... you have no idea. This is going to be so much better. And as for the naysayers who cry "how do we know Apple will allow this?" remember Brian Croll's comment that Apple will not create any hardware to block users from installing Windows.

Finally, as for the persistent, annoying “why would you need to run both” comments, please just shut up. I have a PowerBook for 99 percent of what I do on a computer, but I also like to play Full Tilt poker, I run an Action PC Football league and play in a Diamond Mind Baseball league. These three pieces of software have required me to keep a 1998 IBM Aptiva connected (along with my PowerBook) via a KVM switch (and yes, a 7 year old computer IS better than Virtual PC) and I’m so, so sick of that ugly black box. When Mac on Intel and parallel OS’s come out, I’m going to sledge hammer the IBM.

davefan6435 · Dec 21, 2005, 08:18 PM

that sounds pretty sweet!!! Bring on yonah!

ravenvii · Dec 21, 2005, 09:18 PM

Why would you need to run both?

zap2 · Dec 21, 2005, 09:21 PM

Dual Core iBooks (please) i don't care about running Windows(i know some do) and that it will be cool as an extra but in the logn end it does little for me

Morn · Dec 21, 2005, 09:40 PM

They'll never be dual core ibooks

Dual core Powerbooks, ibooks will probably be out in june or something with single core yonah....
Anyway, what this VT technology does is enable x86 to function better with a VM. There are certain things about x86 that make it very different to run 2 OS's at the same time on.... x86 will only allow the primary OS to run anything in kernel mode, when the secondary OS runs code in kernel mode it has to emulated by the VM program. So a program like vmware actuallly has to emulate some x86 instructions even when running on an x86 CPU.

pknz · Dec 21, 2005, 09:57 PM

That sounds pretty sweet and increases the idea of a dual (or trual (triple)) OS's booting on MacTels.

vniow · Dec 21, 2005, 10:00 PM

Of course this one gets on the front page and my post about the same topic over a month ago only got a few replies...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=161550

Flying Llama · Dec 21, 2005, 10:07 PM

simplicity is key...

DMann · Dec 21, 2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven VII

Why would you need to run both?

Millions and millions of switchers will have a no-brainer,
painless way to switch over to Mac! This shall complete
the pieces to the winning combination!

Object-X · Dec 21, 2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven VII

Why would you need to run both?

A possible solution we are looking at is running OS X as our main OS and Windows for a proprietary program. This way the Windows OS could be configured not to use the internet and thus isolate it, while OS X, could be used for all other business applications (email, word, excel, ect.). Security is a huge concern where I work and my company would switch to OS X if it could run our proprietary applications. This would allow us to work around that.

Arcus · Dec 21, 2005, 10:19 PM

I think this is going to be an interesting start to the new year. Something tells me that Steve has more up his sleeve then we know.

nagromme · Dec 21, 2005, 10:20 PM

I've always been much more interested in running Windows at the SAME time as OS X (if I have to run it)--like a new VPC or something similar, or possibly even Darwine.

I do NOT want the delay and hassle of rebooting back and forth! I DO want to be able to access ALL my apps at once--not "just the Mac ones" or "just the Windows ones."

So anything that helps run two OS's at once more easily is a good thing.

I also don't want to boot Windows for security reasons: I don't want to have to worry about Windows viruses affecting the hard disk. Something like VPC where the PC thinks a virtual hardfile IS the hard disk, removes that worry. Then Windows has no possible way to reformat the HD.

Now, THIS I don't get... sounds inefficient at first reading:

"Home users could create virtual “partitions” isolating multiple user environments such as dedicating resources to a PC game, productivity, and personal video recorder-type environments, as well as improve defenses against viruses or spy ware."

Does that mean running multiple instances of the same OS at the same time on the same CPU? I can see the virus benefit (as long as they used separate HD parititions too). But wouldn't that waste RAM and CPU cycles? How would this be better than running the OS ONE time, and letting background processes handle your PVR? Or using multiple user accounts for productivity vs. gaming?

DMann · Dec 21, 2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vniow

Of course this one gets on the front page and my post about the same topic over a month ago only got a few replies...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=161550

I do remember your post - and yes, it should have been
on the front page! Probably just needed confirmation

EricNau · Dec 21, 2005, 10:26 PM

Putting Windows on an Apple?

No Thank you.

Wouldn't that bring all of the Problems of Windows to Apple?

(ie: Viruses)

dashiel · Dec 21, 2005, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven VII

Why would you need to run both?

anyone who develops anything cross platform.

i'd dig a "transparent" app that allows me to run windows at near full speed inside of OS X. as it stands VPC on a dual 2.0Ghz with 1.5 gigs of RAM is barely acceptable.

jhero · Dec 21, 2005, 10:27 PM

coolness factor...

SilverLight · Dec 21, 2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven VII

Why would you need to run both?

cause users could run OSX for everything and Windows to run games...the only downside of making the switch

Donm · Dec 21, 2005, 10:51 PM

Let me add something that isn't being mentioned. Not all Yonah/Napa systems will support VT. Secondly, while VT does make it easier for the OEM to install and run multiple OSs it also allows them to PREVENT what a user does with the platform. VT could be used to prevent someone from installing an additional OS...SURPRISE!

Les Kern · Dec 21, 2005, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dashiel

anyone who develops anything cross platform.

i'd dig a "transparent" app that allows me to run windows at near full speed inside of OS X. as it stands VPC on a dual 2.0Ghz with 1.5 gigs of RAM is barely acceptable.

I agree... BARELY. I use VPC to check code builds on SW I develop. I DO NOT want to reboot to access WIN or Linux. That's just dumb. The news got my curiosity though... what IS the "master" plan? The possible exclusion of FW, the Forbes article saying that Apple will concentrate more on the iPod and the "Media Center Mini, the Intel switch itself, dual OS security patents. Somehow it all fits, but we don't work for Apple.

sluthy · Dec 21, 2005, 11:06 PM

Vt...Darwine...VT...Darwine...can't choose which is more promising. Darwine allowing Windows apps to run unmodified within OSX, or VT allowing multiple (Linux, Solaris, Windows, anything) OSs running simultaneously. Is VT similar to a hardware version of Xen for Linux?

Platform · Dec 21, 2005, 11:07 PM

Just keeps getting better......Fast OS switching

strange days · 11:31 PM

so we got :

#1 : Switchers Galore
- anyone in doubt is in the wagon, and others can follow and buy themselves a beautiful computer instead of crappy PC laptops ( and desktops )

#2 : Security
- never worry about viruses or spyware again, or at least contain them to the virtual PC environment, or the partitioned hardware

#3 : Developers Worldwide
- not only OSX or XP, but many other platforms developers swearing for the first universal machine to work with

#4 : MIGHTY GOOD for Apple market share
- Windows could be perceived as an app running under OSX, effectively accelerating its dominance position demise in the minds of users. From working environment, to just an option to access when needed.

#5 : FrontRow
- few models to start with, but a firm foot in the home entertaining market already; even more customers, whether for "cheap" ( but good looking ) simple DVR / VOD computers, or/and for power users at home who need not another anonymous box in the house when they have their Apple computer already.

WOAH, this could be some Jobs magic 101 and project his vision to reference worldwide in 2006 alone ( or to begin with ). In a few years the question won't be "are you running OSX or XP ?", but rather "are you still running Windows under OSX ?". If you got M$ shares, dump them now...

...so i hope at worst they let us do it, at best, good PC software emulation competition for those who need to run XP or Linux ( or other ) and don't want the hassle of double booting.

Dr. Dastardly · Dec 21, 2005, 11:22 PM

Finally!

One computer to rule them all!

OS's I mean

crispoe · Dec 21, 2005, 11:30 PM

Microsoft discontinues IE for Mac. Why? Because its going to run natively in windows mode, similar to how Apple runs X11. I mentioned this on Osnews a few days ago... It could be another partnership deal with Microsoft, or they could use more Transitive tech. Hell they could be using Xen 3.0. Don't be surprised if you see Native Office for mac go away too.

Though it may be weird to see on store.apple.com- you may be able to buy a "license" for windows xp with a new mac if you want to run it with OS X. MS doesn't care what hardware you run Windows on as long as you pay the bill. If its transparent like X11 and classic was, it would be simply amazing- with an option to switch to windows full-screen desktop mode.

The only thing I would be afraid of here, is some developers for mac may just ditch cocoa and program for windows since it will work on both platforms (bigger market- less work).

I would still love to see it happen though....
I am psyched to see what apple does with the yonah... the possibilites are endless!

Oh yeah one other thing... FINALLY WE WILL BE ABLE TO PLAY PC GAMES NO EMULATION ON OUR MACS!!

trose · Dec 21, 2005, 11:30 PM

Now this would be cool!
Basically, with a KvM switch, I already do the same thing. Toggle to PC for games, back to Mac for other stuff. It'd be awesome to have that capability on one machine.

I wasn't too thrilled about the idea of booting into another OS. Even though that's cool, it doesn't really fit how I use my computer.

Dec 21, 2005, 09:57 PM	#6
pknz macrumors 68020 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: NZ	That sounds pretty sweet and increases the idea of a dual (or trual (triple)) OS's booting on MacTels. __________________ Liverpool FC

Dec 21, 2005, 10:07 PM	#8
Flying Llama macrumors 6502a Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Los Angeles	simplicity is key... __________________ .__......__...._______......______....______ \|..\|.....\|..\|...\__......\..../..........\..\__.....\ \|..\|.....\|..\|....../..__..\_.\|..Y...Y....\.../..__..\_ \|..\|__..\|..\|__..(____..../\|__\|__\|..../..(____..../ \|____/.\|____/.........\./...........\./...........\./

Dec 21, 2005, 10:19 PM	#11
Arcus macrumors 6502 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: of my hand will get me slapped.	I think this is going to be an interesting start to the new year. Something tells me that Steve has more up his sleeve then we know. __________________ SE30 \| Bondi Blu iMac \| iBook G3 700 - 384 Megs 40gig \|5th gen iPod 30gig Video \| 17" 2.0 CD2 iMac \|20" 2.16 CD2 iMac \|5gb 1st Gen iPhone

Dec 21, 2005, 10:20 PM	#12
nagromme macrumors 601 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Blinking blue dot	I've always been much more interested in running Windows at the SAME time as OS X (if I have to run it)--like a new VPC or something similar, or possibly even Darwine. I do NOT want the delay and hassle of rebooting back and forth! I DO want to be able to access ALL my apps at once--not "just the Mac ones" or "just the Windows ones." So anything that helps run two OS's at once more easily is a good thing. I also don't want to boot Windows for security reasons: I don't want to have to worry about Windows viruses affecting the hard disk. Something like VPC where the PC thinks a virtual hardfile IS the hard disk, removes that worry. Then Windows has no possible way to reformat the HD. Now, THIS I don't get... sounds inefficient at first reading: "Home users could create virtual “partitions” isolating multiple user environments such as dedicating resources to a PC game, productivity, and personal video recorder-type environments, as well as improve defenses against viruses or spy ware." Does that mean running multiple instances of the same OS at the same time on the same CPU? I can see the virus benefit (as long as they used separate HD parititions too). But wouldn't that waste RAM and CPU cycles? How would this be better than running the OS ONE time, and letting background processes handle your PVR? Or using multiple user accounts for productivity vs. gaming? __________________ nagromme Would you like a treatment?

Dec 21, 2005, 10:26 PM	#14
EricNau macrumors Demi-God Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sacramento, CA	Putting Windows on an Apple? No Thank you. Wouldn't that bring all of the Problems of Windows to Apple? (ie: Viruses) __________________ November is Pancreatic Caner Awareness Month www.PanCan.org \| Get Involved

Dec 21, 2005, 06:39 PM	#1
chicagdan macrumors 6502a Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago, IL	Yonah Virtualization Everyone keeps talking about the dual core aspect of Yonah, but perhaps the best feature is VT, Intel's Virtualization Technology. According to this article, VThttp://www.nordichardware.com/news,2670.html is basically VMWare on a chip -- meaning that the new Intel Mac's will be fully capable of running OS X, Windows, Linux, OS/2, whatever, simultaneously in a system much like fast user switching, all with hyperthreading and dual core capability. So everyone who keeps asking "can I dual boot?" ... "will there be a Virtual PC" ... you have no idea. This is going to be so much better. And as for the naysayers who cry "how do we know Apple will allow this?" remember Brian Croll's comment that Apple will not create any hardware to block users from installing Windows. Finally, as for the persistent, annoying “why would you need to run both” comments, please just shut up. I have a PowerBook for 99 percent of what I do on a computer, but I also like to play Full Tilt poker, I run an Action PC Football league and play in a Diamond Mind Baseball league. These three pieces of software have required me to keep a 1998 IBM Aptiva connected (along with my PowerBook) via a KVM switch (and yes, a 7 year old computer IS better than Virtual PC) and I’m so, so sick of that ugly black box. When Mac on Intel and parallel OS’s come out, I’m going to sledge hammer the IBM.

Dec 21, 2005, 08:18 PM	#2
davefan6435 macrumors regular Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Madison, WI	that sounds pretty sweet!!! Bring on yonah! __________________ 1.42 ghz Mac Mini 5G Black iPod

Dec 21, 2005, 09:18 PM	#3
ravenvii macrumors 68040 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melenkurion Skyweir	Why would you need to run both? __________________ You spoony bard!

Dec 21, 2005, 09:21 PM	#4
zap2 macrumors 601 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: NJ	Dual Core iBooks (please) i don't care about running Windows(i know some do) and that it will be cool as an extra but in the logn end it does little for me __________________ "We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by." Will Rogers

Dec 21, 2005, 09:40 PM	#5
Morn macrumors 6502 Join Date: Oct 2005	They'll never be dual core ibooks Dual core Powerbooks, ibooks will probably be out in june or something with single core yonah.... Anyway, what this VT technology does is enable x86 to function better with a VM. There are certain things about x86 that make it very different to run 2 OS's at the same time on.... x86 will only allow the primary OS to run anything in kernel mode, when the secondary OS runs code in kernel mode it has to emulated by the VM program. So a program like vmware actuallly has to emulate some x86 instructions even when running on an x86 CPU.

Dec 21, 2005, 10:00 PM	#7
vniow macrumors 603 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: I accidentally my whole location.	Of course this one gets on the front page and my post about the same topic over a month ago only got a few replies... http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=161550

Dec 21, 2005, 10:27 PM	#16
jhero macrumors 6502 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not near an Apple Store	coolness factor... __________________ \| jhero \| 1.5GHz PB G4 \| 1.5GB DDR \| 15"

Dec 21, 2005, 10:51 PM	#18
Donm macrumors newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: California	Let me add something that isn't being mentioned. Not all Yonah/Napa systems will support VT. Secondly, while VT does make it easier for the OEM to install and run multiple OSs it also allows them to PREVENT what a user does with the platform. VT could be used to prevent someone from installing an additional OS...SURPRISE!

Dec 21, 2005, 11:06 PM	#20
sluthy macrumors regular Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bundaberg, Qld. Australia	Vt...Darwine...VT...Darwine...can't choose which is more promising. Darwine allowing Windows apps to run unmodified within OSX, or VT allowing multiple (Linux, Solaris, Windows, anything) OSs running simultaneously. Is VT similar to a hardware version of Xen for Linux? __________________ Sluthy. "Today a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed into a smaller vibration, and that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."

Dec 21, 2005, 11:07 PM	#21
Platform macrumors 68030 Join Date: Dec 2004	Just keeps getting better......Fast OS switching __________________ Aluminium Macbook \| 20" iMac G5 (iSight)

Dec 21, 2005, 11:10 PM	#22
strange days macrumors regular Join Date: Nov 2005	so we got : #1 : Switchers Galore - anyone in doubt is in the wagon, and others can follow and buy themselves a beautiful computer instead of crappy PC laptops ( and desktops ) #2 : Security - never worry about viruses or spyware again, or at least contain them to the virtual PC environment, or the partitioned hardware #3 : Developers Worldwide - not only OSX or XP, but many other platforms developers swearing for the first universal machine to work with #4 : MIGHTY GOOD for Apple market share - Windows could be perceived as an app running under OSX, effectively accelerating its dominance position demise in the minds of users. From working environment, to just an option to access when needed. #5 : FrontRow - few models to start with, but a firm foot in the home entertaining market already; even more customers, whether for "cheap" ( but good looking ) simple DVR / VOD computers, or/and for power users at home who need not another anonymous box in the house when they have their Apple computer already. WOAH, this could be some Jobs magic 101 and project his vision to reference worldwide in 2006 alone ( or to begin with ). In a few years the question won't be "are you running OSX or XP ?", but rather "are you still running Windows under OSX ?". If you got M$ shares, dump them now... ...so i hope at worst they let us do it, at best, good PC software emulation competition for those who need to run XP or Linux ( or other ) and don't want the hassle of double booting. Last edited by strange days : Dec 21, 2005 at 11:31 PM.

Dec 21, 2005, 11:22 PM	#23
Dr. Dastardly macrumors 65816 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: I live in a giant bucket!	Finally! One computer to rule them all! OS's I mean

Dec 21, 2005, 11:30 PM	#24
crispoe macrumors member Join Date: Oct 2005	Coincidence I think not! Microsoft discontinues IE for Mac. Why? Because its going to run natively in windows mode, similar to how Apple runs X11. I mentioned this on Osnews a few days ago... It could be another partnership deal with Microsoft, or they could use more Transitive tech. Hell they could be using Xen 3.0. Don't be surprised if you see Native Office for mac go away too. Though it may be weird to see on store.apple.com- you may be able to buy a "license" for windows xp with a new mac if you want to run it with OS X. MS doesn't care what hardware you run Windows on as long as you pay the bill. If its transparent like X11 and classic was, it would be simply amazing- with an option to switch to windows full-screen desktop mode. The only thing I would be afraid of here, is some developers for mac may just ditch cocoa and program for windows since it will work on both platforms (bigger market- less work). I would still love to see it happen though.... I am psyched to see what apple does with the yonah... the possibilites are endless! Oh yeah one other thing... FINALLY WE WILL BE ABLE TO PLAY PC GAMES NO EMULATION ON OUR MACS!!

Dec 21, 2005, 11:30 PM	#25
trose macrumors regular Join Date: Dec 2002	Now this would be cool! Basically, with a KvM switch, I already do the same thing. Toggle to PC for games, back to Mac for other stuff. It'd be awesome to have that capability on one machine. I wasn't too thrilled about the idea of booting into another OS. Even though that's cool, it doesn't really fit how I use my computer.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode