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Old Dec 22, 2005, 05:15 PM   #1
GothamKnight
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Logic or Protools

Just ordered a Mac dual-core 2.0. Will be making electronic music. Any thoughts/suggestions on which sequencer to go with?

What is a good, cheap audio interface I could use with Logic?

I really like MIDI and hear that Protools isn't that good with it. Is this still the case?
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Old Dec 23, 2005, 11:42 AM   #2
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If most of your work will be virtual instruments via midi, then Logic, Cubase or Digital Performer are probably your best choices.

If you're recording live instuments, vocals etc. then ProTools.

Really the best solution may be to get ProTools M-Powered for $299 and Logic Express for $99.00

If you already have a midi keyboard controller, then the M-Audio F/W 410
is a great way to go. Otherwise M-Audio offers several nice KB controllers
with either built in USB and Midi or F/W and Midi interfaces.

The primary benefit of the M-Audio interfaces is that they allow you to use
any DAW software you choose including ProTools M-Powered.
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Old Dec 23, 2005, 11:48 AM   #3
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You really need to make that fundamental decision on the software first.

ProTools has basic MIDI tools, but the others are stronger on MIDI and virtual instruments.

Ask around the community of people who are making the music you are. Find out what they are using, If you are going to be creating CDs, find out who does mixing and mastering and find out what they use.

My son writes and produces hiphop. He doesn't use MIDI at all, everything is chopped and assembled as audio in ProTools. He sends ProTools tracks to Vancouver for mixing and mastering in a larger studio that is totally ProTools.
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Old Dec 28, 2005, 10:27 AM   #4
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Well I'm gonna go with Logic because of the built-in synths/sampler. Plus a few friends use it so it'll help in learning the program. Now I just have to decide on a soundcard. I might get a midi keyboard that is also an audio interface, but don't know how the latency is on those (they're USB).

Is it better to get those separate? I wanted a 2in1 cause eventually I want a laptop.
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Old Dec 31, 2005, 12:04 PM   #5
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Good choice.

One thing to remember about Pro-Tools, once you are sucked into their software you'll also get sucked into their hardware.
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Old Dec 31, 2005, 12:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamKnight
Well I'm gonna go with Logic because of the built-in synths/sampler. Plus a few friends use it so it'll help in learning the program. Now I just have to decide on a soundcard. I might get a midi keyboard that is also an audio interface, but don't know how the latency is on those (they're USB).

Is it better to get those separate? I wanted a 2in1 cause eventually I want a laptop.
I would seriously consider a Firewire audio interface separately from the keyboard. You can goahead with an audio-enabled keyboard for portable use, but your main studio should have a higher quality interface.
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Old Jan 1, 2006, 02:11 AM   #7
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So I think I want the Korg MicroKontrol as my MIDI controller because it's easy to set up for Logic.

I'm still torn on the interface. Maybe a Presonus Firebox or Focusrite Sapphire. Or a used, cheap interface for now and then just upgrade that in a year
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Old Jan 2, 2006, 10:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howesey
Good choice.

One thing to remember about Pro-Tools, once you are sucked into their software you'll also get sucked into their hardware.
and sucked into paying $100-200CDN for updates :S
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Old Jan 29, 2006, 01:21 PM   #9
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Pro-Tools LE or M-Powered is not any better than any of the other software in the same price range. But...when it comes to Pro-Tools TDM, you are dealing with an amazing sound clarity that can't be touched.
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Old Jan 29, 2006, 03:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GothamKnight
So I think I want the Korg MicroKontrol as my MIDI controller because it's easy to set up for Logic.

I'm still torn on the interface. Maybe a Presonus Firebox or Focusrite Sapphire. Or a used, cheap interface for now and then just upgrade that in a year
I have a MicroKontrol and i enjoy it. Do not expect to actually "play" anything on the mini-keys on the keyboard. I use them for triggering samples and the like. You might be able to play a melody on it, but my fingers are too big for playing chords in a useable fashion on it. It does work well for adjusting levels, Bus controls, etc. Most MIDI keyboards are fairly simple to setup to work with Logic, Cubase, etc, but the MicroKontrol does have a default "Logic" setting.

As far as the interface, both the Firebox and the Sapphire are nice interfaces. I will also add that the FW 410 (as stated before) is a nice interface as well. Personally, i would go with the Sapphire or the FW 410 because of the extra outputs. Also on the Firebox the MIDI connections are done via a breakout box that connects to the Firebox, so you end up with two pieces of equipment tethered via a cable rather than a all-in-one setup. The Sapphire's micpre's are really nice, as are the ones on the Firebox. The FW 410 micpre's are, well decent, lol. Having used all three, i really see it as a toss-up.

Good luck with the project.
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 08:30 PM   #11
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My crossgrade Logic Pro 7.2 disc arrived on Saturday by FedEX. Installed without a hitch, runs smoothly. Everything seems snappy or maybe its just my imagination. I did have one problem in that East-West's "Symphony Orchestra Silver Edition" would not run as a plugin under 7.2. After contacting Native Instruments and downloading updates as recommended without success, I mentioned that I had the new "Intel" Core Duo Imac. The tech informed me that "Silver" would not run on the Intel Macs until a scheduled April update of the program. So be aware that lots of third party plugins may not run in Logic Pro 7.2 until a universal binary is issued. Otherwise, I like what I see and hear out of 7.2. I'll keep you informed if I come across any other issues. It would be nice if Logic Pro 7.2 had a templet for creating Podcasts like the one found in the new Garage Band. Maybe I'm just overlooking it. There is lots to discover in Logic. Don't let the interface scare you. Its really pretty easy to find yourself around in Logic Pro and make music. The tough part is making great music and that's where the artist comes in.
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Old Feb 23, 2006, 03:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-clipse
Pro-Tools LE or M-Powered is not any better than any of the other software in the same price range. But...when it comes to Pro-Tools TDM, you are dealing with an amazing sound clarity that can't be touched.
Absolutely untrue.

While TDM systems do provide an extraordinary amount of processing power, and while I agree with you that the TDM hardware does have a nice sound (particularly at high sampling rates), it is a misconception that TDM hardware sounds better than anything else.

Prism converters will be nicer sounding than the current HD hardware. (http://www.prismsound.com/music_reco..._products.html)

The Apogee AD-16X/DA-16X clocked with a Big Ben will beat an HD system.

So while PT HD does provide an excellent system, its not the top-of-the-line sonically.
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Old Feb 28, 2006, 09:03 PM   #13
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Pro Tools wont even run on 2GHz Duo iMac!!!

Pro Tools blows... Honestly... If you are slow, and need to open & save PT sessions ( and can't just drag in AIFF files & MIDI data ) *maybe* PT LE would suck less...
But PT LE ONLY starts when Hardware is connected, so editing on a bus... no go.... draconian, BS!
LE is buggy, old, lame.... crashes a LOT! Far as I know, Intel version may come "Soon", but today, no choice..... PT has no x86 OS X version.

Electronic music? Yeah, reason, Live, etc. PT's is soo long in the tooth.... Maybe they'll clean it up soon... Also, PT plug ins cost more, TDM plugs use MOT DSP chips 24 bit integers - which isn't really a good way to do it.... it dithers, rounds, every time you use a plug in twice....
IN GB, Logic, Cubase, etc. they use the 32 bit floats ( yep up to 10,000KHz resolution! ) and waits until the last stage to round #'s longer than 32 places.... once.

TDM can't handle the track counts, or number of plugs, 32 bit floats Core Audio/ Audio Units do... VST's, etc. Then, like Mac OS 9 - 1/2 of PT is emulated 68K code.... also cant play back 100 tracks on a PB G4 ( or use 77 reverbs on a Macbook Pro )

Pro tools is a LOT of hype, a lot.... they give every pro free versions, and claim it's cause they are best... but I know no one who will use it now.... years ago, it did audio OK, now it's like a virus..... what a hack...

If you need software for iMac Core Duo - GB & Logic are the only ones available so far.... all plugs, apps, etc. are coming.... but not done yet....

GB uses Logic architecture, so whatever UI you prefer.... both open GB/Logic Logic/GB in each other - should be fine.....

As for PT, Digidesign, they lose money every year..... Pro Tools 4 and PT 5, 6, 7.... no changes.... it's good 1996 technology..... for a company losing cash for a decade..... AVID Video is dying also.... since software can do all that without paying 100,000 dollars....

Anyway, good luck on the bleeding edge,
LT
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Old Feb 28, 2006, 09:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTzu
Pro Tools blows... Honestly... If you are slow, and need to open & save PT sessions ( and can't just drag in AIFF files & MIDI data ) *maybe* PT LE would suck less...
But PT LE ONLY starts when Hardware is connected, so editing on a bus... no go.... draconian, BS!
LE is buggy, old, lame.... crashes a LOT! Far as I know, Intel version may come "Soon", but today, no choice..... PT has no x86 OS X version.

Electronic music? Yeah, reason, Live, etc. PT's is soo long in the tooth.... Maybe they'll clean it up soon... Also, PT plug ins cost more, TDM plugs use MOT DSP chips 24 bit integers - which isn't really a good way to do it.... it dithers, rounds, every time you use a plug in twice....
IN GB, Logic, Cubase, etc. they use the 32 bit floats ( yep up to 10,000KHz resolution! ) and waits until the last stage to round #'s longer than 32 places.... once.

TDM can't handle the track counts, or number of plugs, 32 bit floats Core Audio/ Audio Units do... VST's, etc. Then, like Mac OS 9 - 1/2 of PT is emulated 68K code.... also cant play back 100 tracks on a PB G4 ( or use 77 reverbs on a Macbook Pro )

Pro tools is a LOT of hype, a lot.... they give every pro free versions, and claim it's cause they are best... but I know no one who will use it now.... years ago, it did audio OK, now it's like a virus..... what a hack...

If you need software for iMac Core Duo - GB & Logic are the only ones available so far.... all plugs, apps, etc. are coming.... but not done yet....

GB uses Logic architecture, so whatever UI you prefer.... both open GB/Logic Logic/GB in each other - should be fine.....

As for PT, Digidesign, they lose money every year..... Pro Tools 4 and PT 5, 6, 7.... no changes.... it's good 1996 technology..... for a company losing cash for a decade..... AVID Video is dying also.... since software can do all that without paying 100,000 dollars....

Anyway, good luck on the bleeding edge,
LT
this is quite an astounding post. i wanted to quote it all because there are more errors in there than what you got right. TDM can't handle track count? hmmm....
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Old Mar 1, 2006, 02:27 AM   #15
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Digidesign losing money?? I just cashed my BONUS check last week. I guess Paul McCartney, U2, Claire Brothers, John Mayer, Kimberly Clark, and all the others using our software and hardware didn't get the memo that Protools "blows". You're post is so full of BS, you must have an axe to grind. Logic, Cubase, GB are good apps. I use them also. But I also use Protools every day, and it doesn't suck. And since Digidesign is selling 15-20 D-Show Venue systems each month at $70k+, I think that speaks for itself. 1996 technology..yeah right. 10,000 Khz resolution? human ear hears up to 20Khz.
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Old Mar 1, 2006, 05:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-clipse
Pro-Tools LE or M-Powered is not any better than any of the other software in the same price range. But...when it comes to Pro-Tools TDM, you are dealing with an amazing sound clarity that can't be touched.
And price to match Seriously the two can't be compared..

We use ProTools in the studio on a day to day basis, recording live instruments mostly. 7 has imrpoved midi and should be commended. Intel version should be out in May....

We have logic and have only used it to finish an artist's material that had already been started in that format. It was cheaper to buy the software than to spend a huge amuont of time & hassle transfering.

Remember ProTools hardware like mbox & 002 rack also work with logic and any other software (final cut studio etc....)
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Old Mar 8, 2006, 04:11 PM   #17
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I'm interested in some peoples Logic 7.2 benchmarks, as I just ordered logic express 7.2 for my macbook
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Old Mar 9, 2006, 07:40 PM   #18
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I'm interested in some peoples Logic 7.2 benchmarks, as I just ordered logic express 7.2 for my macbook

Check out the discussions at the Apple support forums. These things are FAST! Core Duo iMacs are benchmarking close to Dual Core 2.3 G5s in Logic 7.2
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 04:27 AM   #19
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I think its a question of production technique/style.

Logics software synths and effects are very powerful out of the box and are intuitive to a degree if you have no prior experience, plus Logic deals with Score writing, so I'd think that composers and programmers are naturally gravitating towards Logic.

Protools is an engineers tool, it was bought by Avid to act as the Post-pro element to their video editing systems and it is an extremely capable post pro compositor/editor/recorder/mixer solution.

Protools appeals to the engineer precisely because it has less bells and whistles, I also think it handles its audio routing better than Logic and I find the audio editing much easier.

Protools has made some changes that kind of answer some of the Logic challenges, but the fact remains that there are things you can do in Logic that are very difficult in Protools, but I wouldn't want to mix a film out of Logic...

I run Protools HD in most of the studios with Logic 7 linked through the 192's, and we all get the best of both worlds, integration between the two systems is getting better with every revision.

No one has mentioned DP4 yet? I hear very good things about that.
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 12:44 PM   #20
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No one has mentioned DP4 yet? I hear very good things about that.
i tried it recently, even went so far as to pay MOTU to upgrade my very old copy of Performer. the goal was to hook up my rosetta800 via firewire and run at 96/24.

though that worked, and i did do a project with it, these things bugged me:

1. the user experience had lag; every button push or slider move had a delay of 1/4 - 1/2 seconds when nothing else was going on (running on a dual 2.0 GHz g5 w/ 1 meg of RAM).

2. at mix time, the audio routing was non-intuitive. it didn't model a real-world board.

3. while recording, i had crashes. now, this may have been more the fault of apogee's firewire implementation, but that kind of crashing never happens to me when i'm using PTLE (and the rosetta800, but then i'm using the ADAT interface) and it bugged the **** out of me.

4. i also didn't dig the DP audio editing, but to be fair i didn't put in much effort. i remember picking up PT for the first time and finding all this stuff more intuitive.
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 03:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MrMike
Digidesign losing money?? I just cashed my BONUS check last week. I guess Paul McCartney, U2, Claire Brothers, John Mayer, Kimberly Clark, and all the others using our software and hardware didn't get the memo that Protools "blows". You're post is so full of BS, you must have an axe to grind. Logic, Cubase, GB are good apps. I use them also. But I also use Protools every day, and it doesn't suck. And since Digidesign is selling 15-20 D-Show Venue systems each month at $70k+, I think that speaks for itself. 1996 technology..yeah right. 10,000 Khz resolution? human ear hears up to 20Khz.

Hi there:

Just reading this thread and it appears u know a thing or two bout Protools. I currently use PTLE7 on a PC and as my productions advance my sessions are bogging down. Everyone whos anyone in Electronic music production uses PT and/or Logic on a Mac. So Imgetting a Mac!

Do you kno if I can use the MBox as my audio interface when I am running Logic?? Trying to avoid buying another audio interface. The Mac and Logic are gonna bankrupt me as it is!!!

Thanks,
David
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 03:55 PM   #22
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Do you kno if I can use the MBox as my audio interface when I am running Logic?? Trying to avoid buying another audio interface. The Mac and Logic are gonna bankrupt me as it is!!!
I believe so. You just have to download the standalone coreaudio drivers from Digidesign so that your Mbox can work with other programs. My Mbox can work with Cubase, Peak, Max/MSP, etc. with no problems after installing the coreaudio drivers. I have not tried it with Logic as i dont own a copy of Logic on my PB, but it should work.

The only issue is if you buy a new intelmac then the standalone coreaudio drivers may not be available as universal binaries.
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 04:08 PM   #23
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Hi there:

Just reading this thread and it appears u know a thing or two bout Protools. I currently use PTLE7 on a PC and as my productions advance my sessions are bogging down. Everyone whos anyone in Electronic music production uses PT and/or Logic on a Mac. So Imgetting a Mac!

Do you kno if I can use the MBox as my audio interface when I am running Logic?? Trying to avoid buying another audio interface. The Mac and Logic are gonna bankrupt me as it is!!!

Thanks,
David
Oops, shouldve read more before i wrote this. I see the " macrumoruser" states you can do this. So you have experience using the mbox specifically as your audio interface with logic?

Very good to know...for me at least. I plan to use both and its very important

Thanks Much
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 04:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by faintember
I believe so. You just have to download the standalone coreaudio drivers from Digidesign so that your Mbox can work with other programs. My Mbox can work with Cubase, Peak, Max/MSP, etc. with no problems after installing the coreaudio drivers. I have not tried it with Logic as i dont own a copy of Logic on my PB, but it should work.

The only issue is if you buy a new intelmac then the standalone coreaudio drivers may not be available as universal binaries.

thanx; Right now if i run ableton as a stand alone it sees the mbox as my interface. Im hoping the same would apply to Logic Although Im new to the mac world so i need to ask alot.

Thx
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 04:14 PM   #25
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^^^No problem. Asking questions is fine (and welcomed as long as it hasnt been asked 10000000 times (search can be everyones friend!)), and this is not a commonly asked question.

The only thing i should mention is that i got a few clicks and pops when recording an reading session (mixed instruments, mainly strings and some winds) in stereo when using the Mbox recording through Peak. It probably has to do with the USB connection rather than the device/drivers.
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