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Old Dec 31, 2013, 09:47 PM   #1
lostngone
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Yet another Fast and Furious gun shows up

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/31/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

"A U.S. official said Tuesday that investigators have traced at least one firearm recovered at a December 18 gunfight in Puerto Peņasco, across from the Arizona border, to Operation Fast and Furious."

The Government knowing gives and sells weapons to drug cartels and terrorists yet tells its own law abiding citizens they don't think we should be able to own some of the same types of firearms.

Wow....
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Old Dec 31, 2013, 10:25 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by lostngone View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/31/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

"A U.S. official said Tuesday that investigators have traced at least one firearm recovered at a December 18 gunfight in Puerto Peņasco, across from the Arizona border, to Operation Fast and Furious."

The Government knowing gives and sells weapons to drug cartels and terrorists yet tells its own law abiding citizens they don't think we should be able to own some of the same types of firearms.

Wow....
Fast and Furious is the largest political scandal this country has seen since Watergate, only much worse.

-The United States Government is complicit to the death of hundreds of Mexicans, and is liable for the death of American civilians.

-Violated ITAR

-Violated international arms trafficking regulations

-Undermined the sovereignty and security of the Mexican government by arming cartels that actively target Mexican law enforcement and political officials.

-Undermined the sovereignty and security of the United States by arming cartels that actively engage in gang warfare, drug trafficking and the killing of American border security.

And while all this was going on Hillary Clinton was prattling all over the capitol about the need for Americans needing their 2nd amendment rights curtailed for the sake of preventing violence in Mexico; Guns the United States government knowingly sold and allowed to walk into Mexico. She fully intended to use the product Eric Holders machinations to undermine the Constitution of the United States.

These are high crimes and Eric Holder and any other official that was involved should be thrown in prison to rot until they die.

The real tragedy is out disgusting corporate and plutocrat controlled press won't report on the issue, so much of the nation is completely oblivious.
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Old Dec 31, 2013, 11:51 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Fast and Furious is the largest political scandal this country has seen since Watergate, only much worse.

-The United States Government is complicit to the death of hundreds of Mexicans, and is liable for the death of American civilians.

-Violated ITAR

-Violated international arms trafficking regulations

-Undermined the sovereignty and security of the Mexican government by arming cartels that actively target Mexican law enforcement and political officials.

-Undermined the sovereignty and security of the United States by arming cartels that actively engage in gang warfare, drug trafficking and the killing of American border security.

And while all this was going on Hillary Clinton was prattling all over the capitol about the need for Americans needing their 2nd amendment rights curtailed for the sake of preventing violence in Mexico; Guns the United States government knowingly sold and allowed to walk into Mexico. She fully intended to use the product Eric Holders machinations to undermine the Constitution of the United States.

These are high crimes and Eric Holder and any other official that was involved should be thrown in prison to rot until they die.

The real tragedy is out disgusting corporate and plutocrat controlled press won't report on the issue, so much of the nation is completely oblivious.
*ahem* Iran-Contra.

And doubly so; this POTUS didn't pardon each person involved before any investigation concluded or any trials occurred.

BL.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 02:25 AM   #4
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*ahem* Iran-Contra.

And doubly so; this POTUS didn't pardon each person involved before any investigation concluded or any trials occurred.

BL.
Fast and Furious was the tactical component of a false flag psy-op waged by Eric Holder, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for the purpose of undermining civil liberties of American citizens.

Iran contra is not remotely comparable because the objective on either front was not about attacking American citizens. Fast and Furious was never about guns, it was about fueling propaganda to promote an anti-gun agenda within our borders. Obama asserted executive privilege over documents related to the operation last year to bar congressional investigations, which in itself should make even staunchest progressive lefty concerned.

This is nothing like trying to free American hostages, or contain communism, which has been the doctrine of the USA since Harry Truman. In Fast and Furious the mission and target was us.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:05 AM   #5
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It's wonderful to watch all the gun apologists crying out that it is the guns that are the problem.

I thought the talking point was guns were just inanimate objects and if the bad guys didn't have guns they'd just use something else?

Good to see you all don't believe your own regurgitated talking points.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 10:52 AM   #6
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My tax dollars at work.

Notice how most of my biggest problems are the results of our Gub'ments incompetence? Drugs: Gub'ment sold guns to the cartels. Terrorism: Gub'ment trained Bin Laden and is ilks...

Hail, the Gub'ment declared war on drugs, more drugs comes into the country. The Gub'ment declared war on terror, more terrorism comes into the country. Howsabout the Gub'ment declaring war on jobs and money? Just a thought. (Sorta like a midget using mouthwash, who would know?)
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 10:54 AM   #7
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Guns moving between Mexico and the U.S. illegally. Santa Ana marches on lower California as Mexico retakes disputed territories with end of the world weaponry crafted in america.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 03:56 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Fast and Furious was the tactical component of a false flag psy-op waged by Eric Holder, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for the purpose of undermining civil liberties of American citizens.
Quantify this.

Quote:
Iran contra is not remotely comparable because the objective on either front was not about attacking American citizens. Fast and Furious was never about guns, it was about fueling propaganda to promote an anti-gun agenda within our borders. Obama asserted executive privilege over documents related to the operation last year to bar congressional investigations, which in itself should make even staunchest progressive lefty concerned.

This is nothing like trying to free American hostages, or contain communism, which has been the doctrine of the USA since Harry Truman. In Fast and Furious the mission and target was us.
First, wrong doctrine. Read up on the Monroe doctrine to see where we got involved with both Mexico and Nicaragua.

Second, it sure as hell is comparable; we sold guns to a country, and worse; sold them to a country under an arms embargo. We did tons worse with that, with evidence showing who the guilty parties were, all of which were pardoned.

End result was the same: guns went to people who should have received them. The difference is that those who were guilty were pardoned by the POTUS before trials could even begin.

BL.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 04:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Fast and Furious is the largest political scandal this country has seen since Watergate, only much worse.

-The United States Government is complicit to the death of hundreds of Mexicans, and is liable for the death of American civilians.
It's very difficult to quantify the deaths in Mexico, so I find it very difficult to believe that a quantitative number exists to ascertain the number of Mexicans killed by weapons smuggled into Mexico.

Quote:
-Violated ITAR

-Violated international arms trafficking regulations
Aren't these the same thing?

Quote:
...-Undermined the sovereignty and security of the Mexican government by arming cartels that actively target Mexican law enforcement and political officials.

-Undermined the sovereignty and security of the United States by arming cartels that actively engage in gang warfare, drug trafficking and the killing of American border security.
Certainly, the gun walking scandal was a huge problem and sending nearly 2,000 weapons into Mexico was a total disaster, but your argument presupposes that Mexico was fine until the gun walking scandal, but that ignores the reason the operation was created in the first place, which was American gun stores were allowing large numbers of firearms to be purchased by straw buyers. And, of course, the Mexican cartels have as many Chinese made firearms as those from US sources.

What's breaking down Mexico is not firearms, but the drug war.

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...The real tragedy is out disgusting corporate and plutocrat controlled press won't report on the issue, so much of the nation is completely oblivious.
Except for CNN which brought you the story.

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Originally Posted by .Andy View Post
It's wonderful to watch all the gun apologists crying out that it is the guns that are the problem.

I thought the talking point was guns were just inanimate objects and if the bad guys didn't have guns they'd just use something else?

Good to see you all don't believe your own regurgitated talking points.
Exactly. If the US government is culpable for the deaths in Mexico, so are US gun dealers responsible for the murders in Chicago.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 04:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
Quantify this.
There's nothing to quantify. Fast and Furious was/is a false flag Psy-op. The ATF was the tactical arm, Holder was strategic, and Clinton and Obama were propaganda to manipulate the American people into crisis laws for scenarios Hillary, Holder, and Clinton created.

Hillary clearly describes exactly what happened in Fast and Furious




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First, wrong doctrine. Read up on the Monroe doctrine to see where we got involved with both Mexico and Nicaragua.
Monroe doctrine is not the same as the Truman doctrine.

Quote:
Second, it sure as hell is comparable; we sold guns to a country.
What country? ATF sold guns to CARTELS, drug dealers, gangsters that are actively engaged in warfare against American law enforcement. We gave guns to people that attacking American citizens. Cartels are a country?

Quote:
The difference is that those who were guilty were pardoned by the POTUS before trials could even begin.
No one can be pardoned because Obama is using executive powers to protect them, and himself.

And furthermore, just so we are clear, do you, or you do not think Holder, Clinton and Obama should be held accountable for attempting to destabilize the Mexican Government and spreading violence in the USA for political purposes? Or do you not care because of Iran Contra 30 years ago

----------

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Exactly. If the US government is culpable for the deaths in Mexico, so are US gun dealers responsible for the murders in Chicago.
You have knowledge of the federal government arming gangs and drug dealers in Chicago for the purpose of destabilizing the state government and advancing a political agenda?
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 04:43 PM   #11
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Monroe doctrine is not the same as the Truman doctrine.
You don't bloody say! Again, read the Monroe Doctrine to see how and why we were involved in both Mexico and Nicaragua.

Quote:
What country? ATF sold guns to CARTELS, drug dealers, gangsters that are actively engaged in warfare against American law enforcement. We gave guns to people that attacking American citizens. Cartels are a country?
We sold guns to IRAN. Yes, the same Iran we haven't had any relations with since the Shah. the same iran in the "axis of evil". That Iran.

And we got caught doing it.

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No one can be pardoned because Obama is using executive powers to protect them, and himself.
Bush pardoned everyone in Iran-Contra. EVERYONE. Obama hasn't done anything yet. no executive privilege; nothing. Bush used his do get everyone off the hook when evidence showed otherwise.

Oh, and cite your claim for this assumption.

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And furthermore, just so we are clear, do you, or you do not think Holder, Clinton and Obama should be held accountable for attempting to destabilize the Mexican Government and spreading violence in the USA for political purposes? Or do you not care because of Iran Contra 30 years ago
let the evidence show who is right and wrong. Evidence showed everyone in Iran-Contra was wrong, and look what happened.

BL.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 04:47 PM   #12
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There's nothing to quantify.
You wrote: "The United States Government is complicit to the death of hundreds of Mexicans, and is liable for the death of American civilians."

You need to provide a source for "hundreds" of Mexicans.

Quote:
...Fast and Furious was/is a false flag Psy-op. The ATF was the tactical arm, Holder was strategic, and Clinton and Obama were propaganda to manipulate the American people into crisis laws for scenarios Hillary, Holder, and Clinton created.
That's a pretty good conspiracy. Note: your video doesn't work.

Quote:
What country? ATF sold guns to CARTELS, drug dealers, gangsters that are actively engaged in warfare against American law enforcement. We gave guns to people that attacking American citizens. Cartels are a country?
The ATF didn't sell guns to the Mexican cartels. This is a serious misunderstanding of Operation F&F and the BATF's actual crime. They allowed to guns to move without tracking them or arresting the buyers.

Quote:
...You have knowledge of the federal government arming gangs and drug dealers in Chicago for the purpose of destabilizing the state government and advancing a political agenda?
You don't have any evidence that the US gov't tried to "destabilize" the Mexican government and armed the cartels as part of a political agenda. What you have is a colossal failure at BATF that was attempting to deal with dozens of US gun shops that were selling weapons for use in Mexico.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 05:05 PM   #13
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You don't have any evidence that the US gov't tried to "destabilize" the Mexican government and armed the cartels as part of a political agenda.
What city do you live in? Mind if I ship 2000 guns to local scumbags in your area and, see if it doesn't destabilize your area.

And that many weapons moving across the border with federal knowledge is incapable of not being political.

I'm getting funky database forum site errors and it keeps losing my lengthier replies. I'll get back to this later
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 05:16 PM   #14
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What city do you live in? Mind if I ship 2000 guns to local scumbags in your area and, see if it doesn't destabilize your area.
Your arguing effect as a replacement for intension.

Quote:
...And that many weapons moving across the border with federal knowledge is incapable of not being political.
According to a recent study, approximately 253,000 firearms are smuggled into Mexico from the United States every year.

In comparison, the ATF's 'gun walking' allowed around 2,000 guns to enter into Mexico from 2006 to 2011 and 710 were recovered. The ATF program represents less than .001 of the number of guns smuggled into Mexico during that period.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 05:58 PM   #15
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We sold guns to IRAN. Yes, the same Iran we haven't had any relations with since the Shah. the same iran in the "axis of evil". That Iran.

And we got caught doing it.
Don't forget we are shipping arms to terrorists in Syria.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:01 PM   #16
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Bush pardoned everyone in Iran-Contra. EVERYONE. Obama hasn't done anything yet. no executive privilege; nothing. Bush used his do get everyone off the hook when evidence showed otherwise.
Has anyone even been charged yet?
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:06 PM   #17
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Don't forget we are shipping arms to terrorists in Syria.
This is a bit of a false equivalence, the Iran-Contra program was an attempt to launder weapon sales to Iran and hiding it from Congress.

The CIA operation in Syria is arming anti-Assad rebels, who may or may not be linked to Al Qaeda (and people often assume connections to the old Bin Laden organization without understanding the reality of these networks).
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:13 PM   #18
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Has anyone even been charged yet?
To my knowledge, no. But how does the lack of charges equate to Obama using any executive powers to cover for anyone?

There is no correlation, so any assumption of such use of powers is without base or merit.

BL.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:14 PM   #19
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To my knowledge, no. But how does the lack of charges equate to Obama using any executive powers to cover for anyone?

There is no correlation, so any assumption of such use of powers is without base or merit.

BL.
If no wrong doing has been admitted why would there be a need to cover it up.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:15 PM   #20
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If no wrong doing has been admitted why would there be a need to cover it up.
Who said anything was being covered up?

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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:15 PM   #21
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Who said anything was being covered up?

BL.
Didn't you just say that? If I misunderstood I apologize.

I guess my point is if no wrongdoing has been admitted why would Obama pardon everyone.
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:32 PM   #22
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Didn't you just say that? If I misunderstood I apologize.

I guess my point is if no wrongdoing has been admitted why would Obama pardon everyone.
Actually charges would have to have been filed (an indictment) or a conviction ruled for a pardoning to occur. None has happened. So we actually agree.

Also, under no time during F&F has any executive privilege been asserted. So how could Obama be covering for anyone? Those would be the only two ways the Executive branch could cover for someone.

As mentioned before, the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation, so that falls to Technarchy. He needs to show proof of such a coverup occurring. Otherwise his claim is without merit.

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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:36 PM   #23
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Actually charges would have to have been filed (an indictment) or a conviction ruled for a pardoning to occur. None has happened. So we actually agree.

Also, under no time during F&F has any executive privilege been asserted. So how could Obama be covering for anyone? Those would be the only two ways the Executive branch could cover for someone.

As mentioned before, the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation, so that falls to Technarchy. He needs to show proof of such a coverup occurring. Otherwise his claim is without merit.

BL.
Were laws broken during F&F that need to be addressed or was this all done above book? Should someone be held accountable for this?
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:50 PM   #24
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The CIA operation in Syria is arming anti-Assad rebels, who may or may not be linked to Al Qaeda (and people often assume connections to the old Bin Laden organization without understanding the reality of these networks).
So do you think it is okay to GIVE machine guns to possible terrorists but not okay for a law abiding citizen to buy one of these firearms(new)?
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Old Jan 1, 2014, 06:52 PM   #25
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So do you think it is okay to GIVE Machine Guns to possible terrorists but not okay for a law abiding citizen to buy a new one?!?!
How do you weed out the non law abiding ones? You know the ones that cause the murders and such. It is the select few that ruin it for everyone.
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