2008 Chevy Tahoe Hybrid and 2007 Saturn Vue Greenline

[quagmire]

The Detroit Autoshow has released some great products and concepts like the Chevy Camaro I already posted about. Now the Saturn Vue Greenline and the full size Chevy Tahoe Hybrid info has been released. More specifics about the Greenline then the Tahoe, but the Tahoe Hybrid goes into detail about the new two-mode Hybrid system. The Greenline is estimated to get 27/32 and only cost $2,000 more! Unlike the Toyota Highlander Hybrid which costs $8,500 more over the regular gas only counterpart. The Greenline will go on sale summer of '06.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=25075

The 2008 Chevy Tahoe Hybrid is the first full size hybrid in its class. It is estimated to get 25% better fuel economy then the regular Tahoe. It uses a new hybrid system that GM, BMW, and DCX( Chrysler, Mercedes) co-developed. Unlike the Prius, Accord hybrid, lexus hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid, and Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which operate in a single-mode style and only saves gas in city driving, this new two-mode Hybrid system will save gas on the highway and city. This is achieved by the hybrid system being mainly built into the transmission.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=25077

PS: Don't be surprised to get the server is busy message. A lot of demand on the site because of the autoshow.

[hoyboy9]

Quagmire, I would encourage you to do some research on hybrid drivetrains before you post about GM's supposed superiority in hybrid vehicles.

The Prius, for example, has 7 different power routing configurations (between battery, electric engine, and gas engine), and the onboard computer automatically adjusts each configuration on the fly in order to ensure maximum efficiency. So your claim of a "single-mode" drive puzzles me.

The other statement you made about the Prius not having appreciable highway gains is false. During highway driving, the Prius utilizes power from both the electric engine and the gasoline engine simultaneously, reducing gasoline consumption. Of course, when the battery is depleted, the gas engine will kick on 100% to compensate, just like the GM hybrids. And when those big GM truck and SUV hybrids run out of electric engine power on the highway, they regress to the fuel-wasting behemoths that they truly are. On the other hand, the Prius will drop into the high 40's when the gas engine runs alone. GM and Ford simply offer no competition to the Prius in the hybrid category.

[quagmire]

Oh I know the Prius saves gas as well on the highway. But, it was built with the intention of saving gas while driving in the city. GM's two-mode hybrid is designed to save gas both in city and highway. Do some research as well. People are complaining about the Prius's mileage. Most people are seeing in the 40's with the Prius. And I wouldn't want to be in a Prius when it stalls on the highway! haha.

[Xtremehkr]

Is the Saturn Vue still using a Honda engine?

The Highlander Hybrid is not just the base model Highlander with hybrid technology. It is the top of the line Highlander, with hybrid added to that.

GM are choosing to try and focus all attention on price alone again. This has been a failing strategy for them. A better hybrid would do the job.

I've always like the Saturn Vue though, it's a reasonable sized crossover that looks pretty decent. It could be slightly more exciting.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Xtremehkr

Is the Saturn Vue still using a Honda engine?

The Highlander Hybrid is not just the base model Highlander with hybrid technology. It is the top of the line Highlander, with hybrid added to that.

GM are choosing to try and focus all attention on price alone again. This has been a failing strategy for them. A better hybrid would do the job.

I've always like the Saturn Vue though, it's a reasonable sized crossover that looks pretty decent. It could be slightly more exciting.

No, it uses GM's Ecotec Gen II 4 cyclinder engine making 170 HP.

[Xtremehkr]

Originally Posted by quagmire

No, it uses GM's Ecotec Gen II 4 cyclinder engine making 170 HP.

It does use that engine, but it uses another one as well.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._vue_red_line/

Honda enthusiasts also may get a kick out of the Vue's new V-6. For 2004, all V-6 Vues get a 3.5-liter Honda engine, which puts out an impressive 250 horsepower and 242 pound-feet of torque. At last count, General Motors made eight different V-6 engines for the American market; in choosing the Honda V-6, GM seems to be acknowledging the superiority of the Honda powerplant. Is none of GM's own V-6s good enough for the Vue?

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Xtremehkr

It does use that engine, but it uses another one as well.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews..._vue_red_line/

Oh you meant the regular Vue. I thought you meant the Greenline. The greenline has the Ecotec as the only motor and is only in FWD.

[Xtremehkr]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Oh you meant the regular Vue. I thought you meant the Greenline. The greenline has the Ecotec as the only motor and is only in FWD.

It's going to compete with the Escape and Highlander hybrids that are mated to 6 cylinder engines?

Come on, no wonder it's cheaper.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Xtremehkr

It's going to compete with the Escape and Highlander hybrids that are mated to 6 cylinder engines?

Come on, no wonder it's cheaper.

Actually the Escape hybrid is attached to a 155 HP 4 cylinder as well. Plus the Highlander isn't in the same class. So I guess it was a bad choice using the HighlanderH as an example of the price differences.

[ehurtley]

Originally Posted by quagmire

And I wouldn't want to be in a Prius when it stalls on the highway! haha.

I just take offense with this 'cheap shot'. My Prius has been the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned, which includes two GM products, and two Ford products. My brand-new GM pickup in the mid '90s stalled and died on the freeway REPEATEDLY, while still under warranty. They never did figure out what was wrong, and I got rid of it right before the warranty expired. My Ford Explorer has transmission problems, my Ford Escort's engine mysteriously blew up on the freeway. All within two years of ownership.

My Prius has been driven FAR more than any previous car (I so far am averaging 30,000 miles a year for two years,) and is rock solid stable. The only complaint is that the little shelf in the top glove box rattles.

But, I won't complain about these new hybrids. Any hybrid is good. Heck, I used to tease that GM's older 'hybrid' full-size pickups weren't really hybrids, and shouldn't be advertised as such; but they do decrease the use of oil, and do significantly reduce emissions, so I say go for it.

I was happy to hear that these new models would be 'full' hybrids more like Ford, Honda, and Toyota, that actually produce noticeable improvements.

No, the Vue shouldn't be compared to the Highlander. (Just like it shouldn't be compared to the Lexus; which costs over $15,000 more than the lowest-end RX330.) And only a $2000 increase in price? That's amazing. I know some will complain that it's not enough to get the best tax credit, though.

And as for your assertion that the other company's hybrid systems were made 'only' to increase city driving? Well, most of them do give a larger percentage boost to city driving, but they also give a noticeable increase in highway driving as well. Any well engineered hybrid SHOULD increase city driving more simply because there are more opportunities to shut the engine down in the city. If a hybrid doesn't take advantage of that, then it's poorly engineered. (Heck, if every new car design simply used a 'belt alternator starter' and a double-capacity, deep-cycle battery, to shut off the gas engine while stopped, that alone would save a LARGE amount of gas each year; for marginally more up-front cost.)

[2nyRiggz]

i like them but the tahoe looks a little girlie now which isnt bad but not muscle like before.


Bless

[hal0n]

Originally Posted by ehurtley

(Heck, if every new car design simply used a 'belt alternator starter' and a double-capacity, deep-cycle battery, to shut off the gas engine while stopped, that alone would save a LARGE amount of gas each year; for marginally more up-front cost.)

i was with you until this point...

the prius is without a doubt a very good car. and the person criticizing them must not have much of a concept of how advanced they are. i do understand them and i've driven at least 25 different ones.. including the first and second generations. i have also disassembled and rebuilt several of them. with out a doubt they are a nicely built machine. one that i seriously doubt that any american manufacturer can top. especially since us americans are buying up first gen hybrid tech from toyota while they sell 2nd gen cars. that should illustrate the technology differences.

i have to say that you are wrong about starting and stopping a gas engine for red lights... as i understand it, the single least efficient point in operating an engine is cranking.

k

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by hal0n

the prius is without a doubt a very good car. and the person criticizing them must not have much of a concept of how advanced they are. i do understand them and i've driven at least 25 different ones.. including the first and second generations. i have also disassembled and rebuilt several of them. with out a doubt they are a nicely built machine. one that i seriously doubt that any american manufacturer can top. especially since us americans are buying up first gen hybrid tech from toyota while they sell 2nd gen cars. that should illustrate the technology differences.

i have to say that you are wrong about starting and stopping a gas engine for red lights... as i understand it, the single least efficient point in operating an engine is cranking.

k

I know how advanced the Prius is. It is a good car. But, most people report they get 40 MPG using the Prius. And the Prius was recalled due to stalling on the highway. But, I don't like hybrids. Toyota, Honda, and the media are overhyping them. Hybrids are a temporary solution to a big problem. And only patches up a small portion of the problem. I am not convinced Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles is the solution either. There is no viable way to produce hydrogen with out burning fossil fuels. What I see as more of a better solution is BioDiesel. Let Mcdonalds, Burger King, and other fast food restaurants help produce out fuel! We just put Diesel engines in all of our vehicles and put BioDiesel in the tank. Eh just my opinion.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally Posted by quagmire

People are complaining about the Prius's mileage. Most people are seeing in the 40's with the Prius. And I wouldn't want to be in a Prius when it stalls on the highway! haha.

First the complaints about the Prius' mpg are based from what I have read on EPA mpg tests that are not setup to accurately show the way the system truly works.

Secondly, I am not so sure the Vue Greenline would be any better on getting on the highway than the Prius.

[zarathustra]

Just about the only thing I like about hybrids is the reduced emissions.

I hope they are just a fad.

Like someone else mentioned this almost seems like a crutch to much bigger problem. I cannot wait until I can either:

A: roll up to a station and fill it with H

B: roll up to a station and fill my Passat TDI with domestically grown corn/soy/other oil

[ehurtley]

Originally Posted by zarathustra

Just about the only thing I like about hybrids is the reduced emissions.

I hope they are just a fad.

Like someone else mentioned this almost seems like a crutch to much bigger problem. I cannot wait until I can either:

A: roll up to a station and fill it with H

B: roll up to a station and fill my Passat TDI with domestically grown corn/soy/other oil

You can do B. in Oregon right now. Portland and Salem both have bio-diesel stations, Portland having two. One is a co-op, the other is a truly commercial bio-diesel station. I thought long and hard about getting a Jetta TDI, but went with the Prius because of its better emissions; and the fact that it uses 'standard' fuel. (While a diesel running on bio-diesel is about as clean as a hybrid, bio-diesel costs over $1.00 a gallon more than plain gas. It was down to only 20¢ more last September/October, though. :-p )

As for mileage with a Prius? That really was a secondary concern when I bought mine. Utility was first (would it hold what I want it to hold, does it have enough oomph, etc,) safety was second (had a new baby on the way at the time; and now it appears that kids are no safer in SUVs than passenger cars,) emissions were third, mileage was fourth, and 'everything else' was last. That said, during the Summer, I get 50-60 MPG, average 55. During the Winter (I'm a pansy, and leave the heat on all the time, which reduces mileage, because it makes the engine run more,) I get 45-50. (Greenhybrid.com's database has the second-generation Prius averaging 48 MPG.)

Originally Posted by hal0n

especially since us americans are buying up first gen hybrid tech from toyota while they sell 2nd gen cars. that should illustrate the technology differences.

i have to say that you are wrong about starting and stopping a gas engine for red lights... as i understand it, the single least efficient point in operating an engine is cranking.

Not sure what you mean about "buying up first gen... from toyota". Ford's design was similar enough to Toyota's that they had to license Toyota's patents, but it's not 'based' on Toyota's. It was independently developed.

And for conventional starters, restarting the engine is inefficient. But the idea of 'belt alternator starters' is that you use a larger motor to spin the engine up to higher RPMs before adding gas; which is why existing hybrids start their engines so seamlessly. A normal starter brings the engine up to about 800 RPM, pumping gas in the entire time. Today's hybrids bring the engine up to over 1500 RPMs to build up oil pressure before adding gas. This is MUCH easier on the engine. This alone would save on gasoline if applied to otherwise 'standard' cars. (Note that the Wikipedia article says that the Saturn will use a BAS, but from what I've seen more recently, it sounds like it will use a 'higher-end' system than a true BAS.)

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally Posted by zarathustra

Just about the only thing I like about hybrids is the reduced emissions.

I hope they are just a fad.

Let's hope not for the sake of the next 10 to 20 years of the ecology and the dwindling oil reserves.

B: roll up to a station and fill my Passat TDI with domestically grown corn/soy/other oil

I have to admit that I am not all up on bio-desiel. Wonder what is better for the overall health of the environment. Bio-desiel or hybrids?

[iGary]

*yawn*

GM has nothing that excites me.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Originally Posted by iGary

*yawn*

GM has nothing that excites me.

Well the Solstice looks good to me and many others. Saturn has quality that ranks up there with Japan.

Though I agree with you overall.

[Xtremehkr]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...hybrids09.html

I miss the old, named links.

GM, which has been criticized in the past by some environmental groups for not offering more hybrids, is promoting the Green Line as a less expensive alternative to hybrids already on the market from Toyota and Ford. The Green Line's hybrid system adds around $2,000 to the cost of a Saturn Vue, compared with a $3,500 premium or more for other hybrids, and will allow the Green Line to sell for under $23,000. That compares with a starting price of $33,030 for the similarly sized Toyota Highlander hybrid.

The Green Line's system is similar to other gas-electric hybrids in that it saves on gas consumption by shutting off the engine while idling, gives the vehicle a boost of electric power during acceleration and captures electrical energy when the vehicle is braking. GM brought down the price by making a simpler system that doesn't run on electric power for as long as other hybrids, spokeswoman Susan Garavaglia said.

GM sacrificed some fuel economy with that change, but Garavaglia said GM wants consumers to have a choice in the type of hybrid system they buy. The Green Line will get an estimated 27 mpg in the city and 32 mpg on the highway, compared with 33 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway for the Highlander.

I was reading the business section and came across this part.

I think until GM starts being honest about their product, they are not going to do what it take to survive to retake the number on position.

I was hoping that with the smaller engine it would get better mileage than the Highlander.

Back to the drawing board GM!

[Spock]

To bad GM will be bankrupt before these new cars come out, could be the Toyota Tahoe and Vue Greenline I guess. That would be funny

[SharksFan22]

Funny thing about hybrids here in California (not sure if this applies across the United States) is that the state gives a $3,000 tax credit to those who purchase hybrids. If the motivation behind that is to get people into more efficient, less-polluting vehicles, wouldn't that credit be better served by giving to someone driving a 20 year old Chevy that gets awful mileage and is probably far out of tune, dumping a great deal of pollution into the air? I think the incremental improvement in fuel efficiency and emmissions with this kind of program would be much great than giving financial incentives to someone who's likely cross-shopping a small, efficient car anyway such as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

But, I guess I've confused two concepts -- government and common sense.

[SharksFan22]

Originally Posted by hal0n

the prius is without a doubt a very good car.

Define "good". Sure, I would expect that it's well engineered and built. But, man are they BORING to drive.

Actually, many years ago I had the chance to drive the GM Impact (a.k.a. the EV1) and and a battery powered Ford Escort. Both we quite interesting and performed well as delivery-type vechicles in an urban area. But, they both felt like really, really nice electric golf carts and were totally out of their element (no Honda-pun intended!) on the freeway. I get the same feeling when I ride in a friend's Prius.

I guess my point is that for those who want to drive them, that's great. It's not my thing, but I am definitely willing to try new technologies as they come to market.

[zarathustra]

Originally Posted by ehurtley

You can do B. in Oregon right now. Portland and Salem both have bio-diesel stations, Portland having two. One is a co-op, the other is a truly commercial bio-diesel station. I thought long and hard about getting a Jetta TDI, but went with the Prius because of its better emissions; and the fact that it uses 'standard' fuel. (While a diesel running on bio-diesel is about as clean as a hybrid, bio-diesel costs over $1.00 a gallon more than plain gas. It was down to only 20¢ more last September/October, though. :-p )

Unfortunately that's a few hundred miles out of my way...

Originally Posted by Chip NoVaMac

Let's hope not for the sake of the next 10 to 20 years of the ecology and the dwindling oil reserves.

My point exactly. We KNOW we will run out of fuel. Why keep sucking on a teet that's drying up? Sorry for the analogy.

You are correct though, diesels emit more NO2 than conventional cars (and hybrids), which I stated in my first sentence - hybrids have great emissions compared to other cars.

It also boils down to fuel. American diesel is very dirty burning compared to European diesel. I believe it was last year that new diesel car sales in Europe almost outpaced gasoline powered new car sales. And knowing how green most Europeans are, I doubt it would happen if their diesels were much worse for the environment.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specia...8/article.html

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesa..._fotw386.shtml

[ehurtley]

Originally Posted by SharksFan22

Define "good". Sure, I would expect that it's well engineered and built. But, man are they BORING to drive.

Actually, many years ago I had the chance to drive the GM Impact (a.k.a. the EV1) and and a battery powered Ford Escort. Both we quite interesting and performed well as delivery-type vechicles in an urban area. But, they both felt like really, really nice electric golf carts and were totally out of their element (no Honda-pun intended!) on the freeway. I get the same feeling when I ride in a friend's Prius.

I guess my point is that for those who want to drive them, that's great. It's not my thing, but I am definitely willing to try new technologies as they come to market.

Wow. Before I had my Prius, two of my cars were a: 1992 Ford Escort GT (250 hp Mazda engine,) and b: 1985 Chevy Camaro SS. While the Prius most certainly isn't a sports car, it has more power and 'get up and go' than my Ford Explorer, and is perfectly fine on the freeway. My wife compares it favorably to her old Nissan Maxima V6. You forget that the Prius (like all other current hybrids,) use electric motors, and that electric motors have very high torque, available at all RPM ranges. My Prius has traction control, and I can still chirp the tires without even trying. Yes, it hurts gas mileage, and the big LCD showing your average mileage definitely 'guilts' you into driving slower; but it has power when you need it. (I have often passed 'muscle' vehicles while going uphill in my Prius. It doesn't lose power at high speeds.)