Forcing 4K at 60Hz in the 2013 13-inch rMBP

jonisign · May 16, 2014

I've been reading reports (http://www.anandtech.com/show/8023/apple-releases-osx-10-9-3-improved-4k-display) that the 2013 13-inch rMBP is being throttled to 4K at 30Hz over displayport in the latest 10.9.3 update. This seems unacceptable given that the hardware CAN support 4K at 60Hz in Windows over displayport 1.2.

Think there is anyway to force 4K at 60Hz over displayport for the 13inch macbook pro in OS X? Maybe there is a way to trick OS X into thinking that the 13 inch is actually the 15 inch, which would get the intel driver to correctly output at the right pixel clocks? Just a thought there must be a way to do it!

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By force, I mean is there any way to get MST working?

ayeying · May 16, 2014

"The MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) uses H series processors which support up to 3 displays at 3840 x 2160 @ 60 Hz, whereas the 13-inch, Late 2013 models use U series processors which only support 3 displays at up to 3200 x 2000, 24 bpp, 60 Hz, SST"

It could be a hardware limitation here.

jonisign · May 16, 2014

Interesting. While this might be a limitation for SST, MST should still work. That's how 60Hz is achieved in Windows at 4k.

dblissmn · May 16, 2014

The download notes say the 15-inch only for full 60Hz external Retina support on 4K. The tech notes say any Late 2013 Retina MBP.

Anyone know which is actually true? My purchase of a 13-inch Retina is hinging on it; I'd like to get my old stuff sold and the switch over and done with now, but not at the price of 4K external display support.

jonisign · May 16, 2014

Interesting! I'm hoping to test this on the 13-inch at some point I don't have access to a 4K monitor yet, but hopefully soon.

Hieveryone · May 16, 2014

dblissmn said:
The download notes say the 15-inch only for full 60Hz external Retina support on 4K. The tech notes say any Late 2013 Retina MBP.

Anyone know which is actually true? My purchase of a 13-inch Retina is hinging on it; I'd like to get my old stuff sold and the switch over and done with now, but not at the price of 4K external display support.

Yeah but it says any late 2013 13" at 30Hz not 60

yjchua95 · May 17, 2014

I don't think the late-2013 13" rMBP will be able to support 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz, simply because the Iris 5100 is too weak to support such a resolution at 60 Hz.

Hieveryone · May 17, 2014

yjchua95 said:
I don't think the late-2013 13" rMBP will be able to support 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz, simply because the Iris 5100 is too weak to support such a resolution at 60 Hz.

What is the difference between 30 Hz and 60? Like what does that mean?

.X. · May 17, 2014

Hieveryone said:
What is the difference between 30 Hz and 60? Like what does that mean?

It means the image is redrawn 30 times per second or 60 times per second.

Hieveryone · May 17, 2014

.X. said:
It means the image is redrawn 30 times per second or 60 times per second.

Will it make a difference for internet browsing, youtube, mail, etc

Quu · May 17, 2014

Hieveryone said:
Will it make a difference for internet browsing, youtube, mail, etc

Yes. It will be very noticeable. Honestly I wouldn't even use a monitor at 30 FPS. Total waste of time.

yjchua95 · May 17, 2014

Hieveryone said:
Will it make a difference for internet browsing, youtube, mail, etc

It will. 30 Hz monitors runs very rough and stutters heavily.

jonisign · May 17, 2014

yjchua95 said:
I don't think the late-2013 13" rMBP will be able to support 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz, simply because the Iris 5100 is too weak to support such a resolution at 60 Hz.

The Iris 5100 DOES have the capability to display 3840x2160 at 60 Hz in multi-stream transport (MST) mode. MST sends information to the monitor as two separate tiles at 60 Hz, which are then fused together by the monitor. The hit you take there is that you can no longer output to 3 separate monitors, because you're effectively outputting the streams of two monitors into one display. However, if you're just using your macbook screen and a 4k MST display, or just the 4k MST display this won't matter at all.

This is part of the specification for displayport 1.2 and Intel built this support into these chips. However, that being said, the earlier post suggested that singe-stream transport can only go this high in the 15-inch model.

So, the question is whether Apple or Intel wrote drivers for the the Iris 5100 to output in MST in OS X. Intel HAS written these drivers for Windows, so the 13-inch can output at 60 Hz there, so this is NOT a hardware limitation. Either Apple has decided that some performance hit exists and they want to hide this option from users, OR Intel/Apple is too lazy to implement MST in OS X on the Iris 5100. Last I read Intel has said that they had no plans on bringing MST support to Linux either... so they're taking the lazy route there.

dblissmn · May 18, 2014

Hieveryone said:
Yeah but it says any late 2013 13" at 30Hz not 60

But no. Allow me to quote from the tech notes:

MacBook Pro (Retina, Late 2013) or Mac Pro (Late 2013) also support 60 Hz displays using multi-stream transport (MST). These displays need to be manually configured to use MST. Follow the steps below to use the display's built-in controls to enable this feature.

Sharp PN-K321: Choose Menu > Setup > DisplayPort STREAM > MST > SET
ASUS PQ321Q: Choose OSD menu > Setup > DisplayPort Stream
Dell UP2414Q and UP3214Q: Choose Menu > Display Setting > DisplayPort 1.2 > Enable
Panasonic TC-L65WT600: Choose Menu > Display Port Settings > Steam Setting > Auto
Your Mac will automatically detect an MST-enabled display. However, your display may require a firmware update to support 60Hz operation. Please contact your display vendor for details. If your specific DisplayPort display is not listed above, check with the display’s manufacturer for compatibility information.

I don't see a display-size qualifier on that "Retina, Late 2013" inclusion. There certainly IS such a qualifier on the download notes but not on the tech notes. Let's hope that the people who are actually familiar with the inner workings of the software are the ones who wrote the tech notes. TO find that out, someone has to test it on their late 2013 13-inch RMBP.

Hieveryone · May 18, 2014

dblissmn said:
But no. Allow me to quote from the tech notes:

I don't see a display-size qualifier on that "Retina, Late 2013" inclusion. There certainly IS such a qualifier on the download notes but not on the tech notes. Let's hope that the people who are actually familiar with the inner workings of the software are the ones who wrote the tech notes. TO find that out, someone has to test it on their late 2013 13-inch RMBP.

Well that would be great as I have the 13"

I don't understand any of the tech specs but I'll figure it out when Dell actually gets a 4k out there.

jonisign · May 19, 2014

I agree, hope that it really is both the 13 and 15 inches that can output at 60 Hz. Anyone have a 4k monitor to try it on?

Freyqq · May 19, 2014

The answer is described in detail here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/8023/apple-releases-osx-10-9-3-improved-4k-display

wisiena · Jan 2, 2015

So now I'm totally confused.
All of you and authors of mentioned articles seems to mix name of DisplayPort (this big connector similar to HDMI but with locks and button) with MiniDisplayPort which is actually Thunderbolt in subjected Mac models.
Could somebody explain how to connect MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Late 2013) with Dell UP2414Q?
Today I found UP2414Q monitor in the store and ask for experiment. This monitors have MiniDisplayPort (this small connector which now is named Thunderbolt) so I jumped to the car for my mac and to the Apple Store for Thunderbolt cable. When we connected monitor with this cable, nothing happened. So which port and cable should I use to test it?

Thanks!

(M.)

TheIguana · Jan 2, 2015

jonisign said:
I agree, hope that it really is both the 13 and 15 inches that can output at 60 Hz. Anyone have a 4k monitor to try it on?

No. It is a hardware limitation on Intel's end. The 13" Haswell version does not and never will support 60Hz output at 4k.

See Intel's official documentation for the Haswell chipset, namely section "Display and Audio Features Comparison"

jonisign · Jan 7, 2015

TheIguana said:
No. It is a hardware limitation on Intel's end. The 13" Haswell version does not and never will support 60Hz output at 4k.

See Intel's official documentation for the Haswell chipset, namely section "Display and Audio Features Comparison"

Yeah I got this I wrote in another thread about ways to get 52Hz @ 4K on the 13'' Haswell. Looks great!

Forcing 4K at 60Hz in the 2013 13-inch rMBP

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