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Old Jun 3, 2014, 09:53 AM   #1
lannister80
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12 year olds charged as adults??

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

I don't care that they tried to murder someone, you CANNOT charge a 12 year old as an adult! That makes absolutely 0 sense.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 09:56 AM   #2
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Ridiculous, but then Wisconsin does have its absurdities.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 09:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

I don't care that they tried to murder someone, you CANNOT charge a 12 year old as an adult! That makes absolutely 0 sense.
I totally agree! In our Belgian/EU penal system this is not possible, thank god. At that age everyone deserves a second chance, and psychological treatment has a very high succes rate.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 09:57 AM   #4
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acted like the worst adults they should fry like the worst adults.

EDIT

charge & CONVICTION are 2 different things.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 09:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

I don't care that they tried to murder someone, you CANNOT charge a 12 year old as an adult! That makes absolutely 0 sense.
so we should let them go?
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:01 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by oldhifi View Post
so we should let them go?
Psychological treatment; or maybe internment. But charging them like adults, hell no.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iMacBooked View Post
Psychological treatment; or maybe internment. But charging them like adults, hell no.
old enough to know what they were doing, smart enough to PLAN what they were doing, sick enough to actually carry out what they planned. fry them.


EDIT.
if this happened to YOUR kids (anyone reading this post). what woudl YOU consider as appropriate charges & or conviction?

from link

Quote:
According to the criminal complaint, the suspects had been planning the attack since February.
They first thought to kill the victim by placing duct tape over her mouth while she was sleeping and stabbing her in the neck, the complaint read.
Next, the plan was to kill her in a bathroom where there was floor drain that could make cleanup easier, it continued.
But, finally, the girls decided to do it in a park while playing a game of hide-and-seek, the complaint read.
It states: "As they left for the park ... (the victim) was walking in front of them and Geyser lifted up the left side of her white jacket and displayed the knife tucked in her waistband. Weier stated she gave Geyser a look with wide eyes and, when asked what that meant Weier stated, 'I thought, dear god, this was really happening.' "
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/03/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

I don't care that they tried to murder someone, you CANNOT charge a 12 year old as an adult! That makes absolutely 0 sense.
Probably not, but, if the law doesn't explicitly prohibit it, the DA could try it, and, later, a judge will move the case into juvenile court. My guess is that they did it this way so as to avoid the whole secrecy hoopla and leaks and all that. This way, everyone can talk about it and the press can report it and all. What with the internet, there is no way something like this stays secret anyway.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
old enough to know what they were doing, smart enough to PLAN what they were doing, sick enough to actually carry out what they planned. fry them.
But they're just kids!
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iMacBooked View Post
But they're just kids!
if they did that to YOUR kid, what would you consider justice?
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
if they did that to YOUR kid, what would you consider justice?
Justice = charging children as children and adults as adults. There can be exceptions, but not for 12 year olds! Not even in this situation, not in any situation. In our legal system here in Belgium, -16 year olds CAN'T ever be charged as an adult at all, whatever the situation is; 16-18 CAN be charged as an adult if the situation is uncontrollable.
I think this system is perfect: I know there are border situations with like 15 year olds or something, but in a case like this, a 12(!) year old child, nope sorry you can't. If this was my kid, yeah I would be so damn angry, but well I would still believe in the fact that 'they're just kids'. Everybody deserves a second chance. Imagine five 12 year olds killing someone, should we lock them up forever? Or should we kill them too? It's just ridiculous, and it doesn't change anything at all. Psychological treatment or internment is the best thing here. And of course damages, but well money doesn't bring back lives.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
old enough to know what they were doing, smart enough to PLAN what they were doing, sick enough to actually carry out what they planned. fry them.
Here's a question for you. It may seem a little odd, but please bear with me.

Is it okay to have sex with a 12 year-old?

What if they planned it, initiated the act and "knew what they were doing"??

If it's not okay to have sex with a 12 year-old, please explain your reasoning.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iMacBooked View Post
Justice = charging children as children and adults as adults. There can be exceptions, but not for 12 year olds! Not even in this situation, not in any situation. In our legal system here in Belgium, -16 year olds CAN'T be charged as an adult at all, whatever the situation is; 16-18 CAN be charged as an adult if the situation is uncontrollable.
I think this system is perfect: I know there are border situations with like 15 year olds or something, but in a case like this, a 12 year old child, nope sorry you can't. If this was my kid, yeah I would be so damn angry, but well I would still believe in the fact that 'they're just kids'. Everybody deserves a second chance. Imagine five 12 year olds killing someone, should we lock them up forever? Or should we kill them too? It's just ridiculous, and it doesn't change anything at all. Psychological treatment or internment is the best thing here. And of course damages, but well money doesn't bring back lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juvenile_court

varies here from state to state. the victim will carry the scars from what happened for the rest of her life.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Here's a question for you. It may seem a little odd, but please bear with me.

1.Is it okay to have sex with a 12 year-old?

2.What if they planned it, initiated the act and "knew what they were doing"??

3.If it's not okay to have sex with a 12 year-old, please explain your reasoning.
be kind enough to forrest gump it for me. I am not able to follow.

1. who? an adult? another child? what does the law say in this case concerning either?

2 see 1 , are the parties consenting? are they both the same age?

3 what does the law state?

hard to follow your odd post. forrest gump it please.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juvenile_court

varies here from state to state. the victim will carry the scars from what happened for the rest of her life.
I know how your legal system works lol, I study law.. I'm just saying that our system is way more clear, and that when something like this would happen here in Belgium, nobody will doubt that they have to be charged as children. We Europeans have other opinions about a lot of things in the American system (like guns etc) but it just scares me that 12 year olds would really be charged as adults. They're just kids!
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
if they did that to YOUR kid, what would you consider justice?
Humane treatment and psychological help.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skunk View Post
Humane treatment and psychological help.
Exactly!
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:33 AM   #17
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Humane treatment and psychological help.
I could go for that after a few years.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:34 AM   #18
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They should probably complete an education, too.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:35 AM   #19
jkcerda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iMacBooked View Post
I know how your legal system works lol, I study law.. I'm just saying that our system is way more clear, and that when something like this would happen here in Belgium, nobody will doubt that they have to be charged as children. We Europeans have other opinions about a lot of things in the American system (like guns etc) but it just scares me that 12 year olds would really be charged as adults. They're just kids!
behaving like the worst adults deserve charges like the worst adults, please keep in mind that getting CONVICTED is a totally different story.

----------

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Originally Posted by skunk View Post
They should probably complete an education, too.
yes, this is one great failing of the criminal system here.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
behaving like the worst adults deserve charges like the worst adults, please keep in mind that getting CONVICTED is a totally different story.
It's not a total different story, they're complementary. You have to be charged as a child, because you are a child (12 years old! So no exception/borderline situation). And you have to be convicted in an appropriate way, again because you are a child. Makes sense to me.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Here's a question for you. It may seem a little odd, but please bear with me.

Is it okay to have sex with a 12 year-old?

What if they planned it, initiated the act and "knew what they were doing"??

If it's not okay to have sex with a 12 year-old, please explain your reasoning.
Bad analogy.

In your example, you're presenting a 12-year-old as a potential victim of a crime.

In the OP, the 12-year-olds in question are perpetrators of a crime.

The difference between giving consent and knowing right from wrong is clear, at least to me.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:46 AM   #22
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21 to be able to drink a beer, but only 12 to be able to stand trail for murder as an ADULT.

This really is an "Only in America" moments.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
1. who? an adult? another child? what does the law say in this case concerning either?

2 see 1 , are the parties consenting? are they both the same age?

3 what does the law state?

hard to follow your odd post. forrest gump it please.

Any adult.

If a 12 year-old "knows what they are doing" and initiates sex, is it okay to have sex with them?

What's your opinion? What's the basis of that opinion.

Answer ... and then I'll let you know my opinion.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomorrow View Post
Bad analogy.
It's not meant as an analogy.

But there are certain principles I'm trying to get at.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:49 AM   #24
jkcerda
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Any adult.

If a 12 year-old "knows what they are doing" and initiates sex, is it okay to have sex with them?

What's your opinion? What's the basis of that opinion.

Answer ... and then I'll let you know my opinion.

----------



It's not meant as an analogy.
SEE below. already answered as best as I could based on your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomorrow View Post
Bad analogy.

In your example, you're presenting a 12-year-old as a potential victim of a crime.

In the OP, the 12-year-olds in question are perpetrators of a crime.

The difference between giving consent and knowing right from wrong is clear, at least to me
.
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Old Jun 3, 2014, 10:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Tomorrow View Post
The difference between giving consent and knowing right from wrong is clear, at least to me.
It is not at all clear: the consent of children is discounted precisely because their judgment is suspect.
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