A few minor changes to the Marketplace rules

annk · Feb 17, 2015

In order to make it easier for members to adhere to the spirit of the Marketplace rules, we've done a little tweaking.

You'll see two changes. The first is a new number seven under "General Rules", concerning excessive sales:

Excessive numbers of sales of new/unused items, or sales for excessive amounts of money - including gift cards - are not allowed. If the volume of sales is larger than would normally be expected for someone using the Marketplace only to sell personal items, then it's probably too much. The administrators have sole discretion for this condition; if you're unsure, contact us before you list.

The second is a new number four under "Rules for Sellers", called "Thread content":

Any item listed for sale in the Marketplace must be one of four things:

Purchased by the seller for his or her own personal use (used by the seller);

Given as a gift to or inherited by the seller (used or unused by the seller);

Bought by the seller who now regrets the purchase (used or unused by the seller);

Be personally owned by and in the possession of a family member living in the same household. In this case, the member who posts the sale is personally responsible as seller.

In addition:

Separate threads are required for unrelated items;

It is not permitted to add or remove items from the first post of a for-sale thread.

We have two goals with these changes:

To make our distinction between personal and commercial sales easier to understand;
To make it easier to moderate the Marketplace fairly, without the need for extensive discussion among moderators.

Apple fanboy · Feb 19, 2015

annk said:
In order to make it easier for members to adhere to the spirit of the Marketplace rules, we've done a little tweaking.

You'll see two changes. The first is a new number seven under "General Rules", concerning excessive sales:

The second is a new number four under "Rules for Sellers", called "Thread content":

We have two goals with these changes:

To make our distinction between personal and commercial sales easier to understand;

To make it easier to moderate the Marketplace fairly, without the need for extensive discussion among moderators.

Can I also suggest a country prefix in the title? Seeing something you want to buy, just to find out the shipping will cost twice as much can be pretty frustrating.

Scepticalscribe · Feb 19, 2015

Apple fanboy said:
Can I also suggest a country prefix in the title? Seeing something you want to buy, just to find out the shipping will cost twice as much can be pretty frustrating.

Well, I assume that the vast majority of members (and posters) on this forum are from the US; until informed otherwise, that is the assumption I would work off.

Granted, that does make life just a little more - challenging - to those of us from the Old Continent.

You are right about the costs of transport, though. Shipping stuff (anything fem coffee, to books to briefcases) from the New World to the Old can cost a pretty penny, and add considerably to the final bill.

tonie · Feb 20, 2015

That's some good changes. There's a handful of people that are selling stolen property. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. It's too easy to flip stolen property online.

robvas · Feb 20, 2015

What about banning non-Apple items from being sold? Right now there are Legos, Blurays, Keurig, Walmart gift cards...Not to mention the guy who posts the 'free' starbucks app codes that you can get either via the free Starbucks app or on the cards that they give out free at Starbucks

That kind of stuff belongs on Craigslist or eBay, not here. It's turning into a rummage sale.

Jessica Lares · Feb 20, 2015

robvas said:
What about banning non-Apple items from being sold? Right now there are Legos, Blurays, Keurig, Walmart gift cards...Not to mention the guy who posts the 'free' starbucks app codes that you can get either via the free Starbucks app or on the cards that they give out free at Starbucks

That kind of stuff belongs on Craigslist or eBay, not here. It's turning into a rummage sale.

I see nothing wrong with people selling non-Apple stuff here. eBay is perfectly fine for you to use if you're selling stuff for a living, but as an individual person who is just trying to get some money back from something I don't need anymore, I'm just not comfortable with it. I am not in the position to be able to refund someone $500 out of the blue if I had to.

I don't have the time to deal with people on Craigslist either. There's also way too many risks, even if you take the precautions to be safe.

As for the Starbucks cards, both of the ones here don't participate in the program.

maflynn · Feb 20, 2015

robvas said:
What about banning non-Apple items from being sold?

I see no advantage in limiting the items being sold. If you're not interested in the items, just scroll past.

Apple_Robert · Feb 20, 2015

robvas said:
What about banning non-Apple items from being sold? Right now there are Legos, Blurays, Keurig, Walmart gift cards...Not to mention the guy who posts the 'free' starbucks app codes that you can get either via the free Starbucks app or on the cards that they give out free at Starbucks

That kind of stuff belongs on Craigslist or eBay, not here. It's turning into a rummage sale.

According to the rules, the Marketplace Forum is a place for established members to sell items that they rightfully own. Said items are not limited to Apple products.

There is more to life than Apple products and Apple discussion. And it has been the case more than once, that non Apple products sold in said forum have been a real help and blessing to those in need.

This forum, besides educating and discussing Apple products, is also about building relationships where established members feel comfortable reaching out to one another in the Marketplace, as well as other parts of the forum that may not be solely Apple focused. And in doing so, the membership is strengthened, as well as increased with people of like mind and character.

Why not let the free market (such as it is defined per the rules) dictate what sells and what doesn't?

Duff-Man · Feb 20, 2015

Duff-Man says...I don't see any reason to limit the content of stuff - perhaps another sub-forum for non-computer stuff is the way to go?

And better enforcement of the rules is in order - this one takes a beating -

Post in your thread for any of these reasons.
to announce a nontrivial price change (please state the old and new prices)
to announce other nontrivial changes in the items, availability, or offer, stating what changed

I've seen countless posts that just say "updated" with no indication of what that means. To follow the plot, knowing what is a trivial change and what is not requires knowing the before and after. I know I've seem more than one instance of people posting "updated" when their original thread has not been.

Use of the marketplace prefixes should be encouraged and enforced more. It's quite annoying to see members that have been around for years not being able to comprehend such a simple thing - do you not see the prefixes in other threads? Do you think posting "sold, mods please close" in your thread is the best way to go? Sometimes it seems that many of the users of the forums have either no brains or are deliberately are trying to bypass the guidelines. The ones that do not grasp this simple thing really get my ire and quite honestly make me avoid dealing with them - if you can't read and follow simple guidelines and rules I really can't trust you to follow through on a transaction. Given the wait time to access the buy/sell forum there is (imho) no excuse not to even give the rule page a cursory look.

I've done pretty well here on the marketplace as both buyer and seller, and like to keep my things easy and simple. I like the somewhat closed community and like to feel that when I do a transaction with another member it's a given that it'll go smoothly - every one has so far.

As far as I am concerned, the Marketplace rules should get more strict as the forum grows, not less. More users = more scammers and bad transactions. It's a really good forum now and I've had great deals on both buy/sell ends....like to see it stay that way....oh yeah!

Carlanga · Feb 20, 2015

Apple fanboy said:
Can I also suggest a country prefix in the title? Seeing something you want to buy, just to find out the shipping will cost twice as much can be pretty frustrating.

Easier IMO to just write your country in the title of your thread if it's not USA. Most members are in the US so the majority is the standard. Having 97% of the threads in the marketplace saying USA in the prefix would be redundant and will make my ocpd trough the roof.

----------

robvas said:
What about banning non-Apple items from being sold? Right now there are Legos, Blurays, Keurig, Walmart gift cards...Not to mention the guy who posts the 'free' starbucks app codes that you can get either via the free Starbucks app or on the cards that they give out free at Starbucks

That kind of stuff belongs on Craigslist or eBay, not here. It's turning into a rummage sale.

Turning into a rummage sale? How can it turn into one if all the time it has existed we have items of various brands.

I don't see anything wrong w the free Starbucks apps either. That memebe is posting itin the marketplace because this is the only place that viewing is limited so that lurkers like it happens in other sub forums won't take them.

If you don't like a sale, just skip it. It's not like there are hundreds of new threads each day.

annk · Feb 22, 2015

Duff-Man said:
...

And better enforcement of the rules is in order...I've seen countless posts that just say "updated" with no indication of what that means...

Since there's no way for us to see all posts, please report any problems. This example is clearly bumping, and we'll deal with this sort of thing if we see it or are made aware of it.

Use of the marketplace prefixes should be encouraged and enforced more. It's quite annoying to see members that have been around for years not being able to comprehend such a simple thing - do you not see the prefixes in other threads?

I agree that it's a good idea to use the prefixes, but they're there as a courtesy for the most part, so it's up to members to use them.

Carlanga said:
Easier IMO to just write your country in the title of your thread if it's not USA.

This is a good idea.

tobefirst ⚽️ · Mar 3, 2015

Is there any merit in requiring pictures in the original post? They are almost always asked for before purchase anyway, so the seller is getting two free bumps when the buyer asks for them, and then another to say "pics added!" How about just making them required in the first place? I can't imagine purchasing something from here without seeing what it is I'm buying. Maybe I'm alone.

Carlanga · Mar 7, 2015

tobefirst said:
Is there any merit in requiring pictures in the original post? They are almost always asked for before purchase anyway, so the seller is getting two free bumps when the buyer asks for them, and then another to say "pics added!" How about just making them required in the first place? I can't imagine purchasing something from here without seeing what it is I'm buying. Maybe I'm alone.

I don't believe making them obligatory to be the right move. It would deter some sellers from posting. Most people post as feeler or for sale w out knowing if people here would be interested in their item. So if there is interest then that seller can take some extra time and take some good pictures for the interested parties. If you make them obligatory some would feel it takes too much work to see if there is even an interest on their used item. If there were hundreds of thread a day then yeah sure but it's a low daily thread making subforum.

the8thark · Mar 7, 2015

Duff-Man said:
I've seen countless posts that just say "updated" with no indication of what that means. To follow the plot, knowing what is a trivial change and what is not requires knowing the before and after. I know I've seem more than one instance of people posting "updated" when their original thread has not been.

That's just a thread bump. Nothing has been updated.

Also I think MR needs explain their exact definition of excessive in this situation. Then people will know. If it's just a subjective term then no one will know how each moderator will interpret it. Ideally there would be no interpreting going on. It would be the rules have or have not been broken. If it's not ultra clear if a rule has or has not been broken, then the rules are not specific enough.

Doctor Q · Mar 7, 2015

the8thark said:
Also I think MR needs explain their exact definition of excessive in this situation. Then people will know. If it's just a subjective term then no one will know how each moderator will interpret it. Ideally there would be no interpreting going on. It would be the rules have or have not been broken. If it's not ultra clear if a rule has or has not been broken, then the rules are not specific enough.

That's a reasonable point.

As you say, the advantage would be that everyone would know exactly what's allowed. The disadvantage is that when you give exact numbers for doing something we discourage, people may increase their bad habits to just under the limit. For example, if 1 sale per day is excessive, how bout 0.99 sales per day?

Either way, be assured that the moderators make team decisions so you don't have to worry about how each of them will interpret an excessive-sales rule. And if there's no stated definition of "excessive" then users won't be expected to know it. They'll get PMs or reminders if they reach what the moderators consider to be excessive levels, so they'll know that's too much.

annk · Mar 8, 2015

the8thark said:
...

Also I think MR needs explain their exact definition of excessive in this situation. Then people will know. If it's just a subjective term then no one will know how each moderator will interpret it. Ideally there would be no interpreting going on. It would be the rules have or have not been broken. If it's not ultra clear if a rule has or has not been broken, then the rules are not specific enough.

Doctor Q said:
That's a reasonable point.

As you say, the advantage would be that everyone would know exactly what's allowed. The disadvantage is that when you give exact numbers for doing something we discourage, people may increase their bad habits to just under the limit. For example, if 1 sale per day is excessive, how bout 0.99 sales per day?

Either way, be assured that the moderators make team decisions so you don't have to worry about how each of them will interpret an excessive-sales rule. And if there's no stated definition of "excessive" then users won't be expected to know it. They'll get PMs or reminders if they reach what the moderators consider to be excessive levels, so they'll know that's too much.

I'll add that another reason for not having a specific definition, is that "excessive" can vary from case to case, depending on the type and price of items. A pre-definition of excessive just doesn't work, since the value and number of what's being sold will vary according to type of item.

The wording specifies that "administrators have sole discretion". The moderators are experienced at discussing and taking context into consideration, but in these situations, once they've done that, we think it's reasonable for them to be able to put the ball in our court.

At the end of the day, this further specification isn't designed to make things harder - as Q pointed out, we're not out to slap down members with strict moderation reactions if a sale is deemed excessive. Rather, we want to keep the Marketplace running as intended: a place for members to buy, sell, or trade their personally-owned items - not as a substitute for eBay or Craigslist.

needfx · Feb 2, 2017

Was wondering if an airbnb related thread could be created for established MR users renting out spaces through airbnb.
A dedicated single thread or dedicated subforum, if enough people would be interested
Thanks

annk · Feb 6, 2017

needfx said:
Was wondering if an airbnb related thread could be created for established MR users renting out spaces through airbnb.
A dedicated single thread or dedicated subforum, if enough people would be interested
Thanks

Any type of sale that is "static" or "ongoing", e.g., "I offer rentals. Contact me if interested" or "I want a rental unit in Hawaii" are business deals, not personal transactions, so they are outside our Marketplace scope. The same would be true of ride-sharing service offers and requests.

We understand the wish and have discussed it, but have decided not to expand to include those areas.

needfx · Feb 7, 2017

annk said:
Any type of sale that is "static" or "ongoing", e.g., "I offer rentals. Contact me if interested" or "I want a rental unit in Hawaii" are business deals, not personal transactions, so they are outside our Marketplace scope. The same would be true of ride-sharing service offers and requests.

We understand the wish and have discussed it, but have decided not to expand to include those areas.

Thanks for the explcit response & consideration @annk

A few minor changes to the Marketplace rules

Administrator

macrumors Ivy Bridge

macrumors Ivy Bridge

macrumors 6502

macrumors 68040

macrumors G3

macrumors Haswell

Contributor

Contributor

macrumors 604

Administrator

macrumors 601

macrumors 604

macrumors 601

Administrator

Administrator

Suspended

Administrator

Suspended

Our Staff