x86 OS X Kernel Becomming Closed-Source?

MacBytes · May 17, 2006, 02:09 PM

http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif

Category: Apple Software
Link: Apple closes darwin - No longer open source.
Description:: Apple is closing the Mac OS X kernel, Darwin, so that the source code is no longer accessible to developers. The reason stated are the numerous hacker attacks to the Mac OS X system.

Posted on MacBytes.com
Approved by Mudbug

Mord · May 17, 2006, 02:14 PM

this needs to be taken with a grain of salt, a pretty massive one, this just means that apple is adding closed sections to the kernel to stop OSx86 hacks.

darwin will continue open source, however the version used in OS X will be modified.

greatdevourer · May 17, 2006, 02:29 PM

If Apple are to release source just for Server, I wouldn't be suprised if it'll've been modified to the point where it doesn't work with Client, thus letting those who want suped up kernels do as they wish without the same level fear of piracy

MacRumors · May 17, 2006, 02:43 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif

According to an opinion piece by Tom Yager at Infoworld, Apple has closed the source of the Intel version of the Mac OS X kernel (called XNU) due to piracy concerns. While the rest of the underlying operating system of OS X (called Darwin) is still open-source, closing the kernel means less capability for pirates to hack OS X to run on non-Apple hardware, but also limits developers and power-users' ability to tweak their systems.

Apple's Open-Darwin mailing list has an ongoing discussion in which some users point out that Apple has actually not released the XNU source for Intel since 10.4.3 or perhaps earlier. Therefore, it appears as though the facts of the article are not new, but rather are just now gaining press attention.

Also has not officially commented on the future of XNU's source availability, and it appears most conclusions as to why the source has not been released is based on speculation rather than inside knowledge.

Spanky Deluxe · May 17, 2006, 02:46 PM

Hackers will still get around this somehow but it sure will make it harder for them. Besides which, how many 'power users' actually modify their kernel?? I mean seriously?

MrCrowbar · May 17, 2006, 02:46 PM

I though the Kernel was based on the opne FreeBSD...

yellow · May 17, 2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

I though the Kernel was based on the opne FreeBSD...

No. It's Mach, from NeXTSTEP. At least the OS X version of Mach. The dude from CMU who developed it was hired by SJ to develop it for Apple.

starflyer · May 17, 2006, 02:49 PM

Maybe this has to do with the rumor that they are dropping Mach support...just a thought

Warbrain · May 17, 2006, 02:52 PM

I find no problem with this. Apple wants to control their OS, which is their property. They don't want OS X to be run on non-Apple PCs, and that's fine.

Evangelion · May 17, 2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow

No. It's Mach, from NeXTSTEP. At least the OS X version of Mach. The dude from CMU who developed it was hired by SJ to develop it for Apple.

No it's not. It's basically part Mach, part FreeBSD and part something else.

yellow · May 17, 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelion

No it's not. It's basically part Mach, part FreeBSD and part something else.

Yes it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU

They borrowed pieces/parts from the Mach for BSD, but for the most part it's all Mach from NeXTSTEP.

budugu · May 17, 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow

No. It's Mach, from NeXTSTEP. At least the OS X version of Mach. The dude from CMU who developed it was hired by SJ to develop it for Apple.

It is some botched up version of both Mach and FreeBSD. The only thing this shows is that apple (other than it is a hypocrite) is sure that they cannot sell macs just based on coolness factor. What is the "remaining" if the whole line transitions to intel anyway!

yellow · May 17, 2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by budugu

The only thing this shows is that apple (other than it is a hypocrite) is sure that they cannot sell macs just based on coolness factor.

How is that any different than it was before?

budugu · May 17, 2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warbrain

I find no problem with this. Apple wants to control their OS, which is their property. They don't want OS X to be run on non-Apple PCs, and that's fine.

They are free to do that! Like Microsoft ... the only thing that irritates me is how they act as if are all for the open source community and all that crap! They use a lot of opensource stuff ... it think it is basic courtesy to help them out... or create what ever you want and use it.

longofest · May 17, 2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow

Yes it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU

They borrowed pieces/parts from the Mach for BSD, but for the most part it's all Mach from NeXTSTEP.

Dude, you just linked to an article that proves you wrong. XNU is a hybrid kernel. It uses Mach for some stuff and BSD for others. You can't say that it is just Mach.

yellow · May 17, 2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longofest

Dude, you just linked to an article that proves you wrong. XNU is a hybrid kernel. It uses Mach for some stuff and BSD for others. You can't say that it is just Mach.

Dude.. Please read all the posts before posting. At no point did I write that it was "just Mach". Maybe that's how you interpreted it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

I though the Kernel was based on the opne FreeBSD...

To which I replied:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow

No.

Mach is MOST DEFINITELY NOT BASED ON BSD'S KERNEL.
It's BASED on the kernel from NeXTSTEP, and borrows from the BSD kernel.
There is a difference, as I view it.

Reading is fundamental.

Eraserhead · 03:26 PM

After reading about this to took a look at the hacker who originally hacked 10.4.4's website and he still doesn't seem to have hacked 10.4.6 also a search on [a pirating site] came up fruitless for Mac OS X 10.4.6, I think the hackers are having problems hacking OS X for Intel at the moment. I'm sure when Leapard comes out it'll be hacked but it seems unlikely that you'll be getting too many free updates of the software, which makes a real Apple Mac superior to any hacked x86 generic Mac.

arn · May 17, 2006, 03:09 PM

Interesting opinion post on slashdot about this topic:

http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.p...d&cid=15351035

Quote:

This has been beaten to death on the darwin-dev list, and there is no new information. Apple has taken no new recent action whatsoever, and in fact, the most recent action is that it has opened up more source code in the x86 tree, not less. Indeed, all of the traditional Darwin source with the notable exception of the kernel itself:

The thing that's not open in the x86 tree is xnu (the kernel), and it's not possible to create a fully bootable binary x86 Darwin OS, as it is for PPC. In the Darwin/OpenDarwin community, this has been discussed for months.

longofest · 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow

Dude.. Please read all the posts before posting. At no point did I write that it was "just Mach". Maybe that's how you interpreted it.

I was responding to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow

No. It's Mach, from NeXTSTEP. At least the OS X version of Mach. The dude from CMU who developed it was hired by SJ to develop it for Apple.

"It's Mach", and then arguing with someone when they say that it is actually a hybrid design makes me believe that you thought it was ONLY Mach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

After reading about this to took a look at the hacker who originally hacked 10.4.4's website and he still doesn't seem to have hacked 10.4.6 also a search on [a pirating site] came up fruitless for Mac OS X 10.4.6, I think the hackers are having problems hacking OS X for Intel at the moment. I'm sure when Leapard comes out it'll be hacked but it seems unlikely that you'll be getting too many free updates of the software, which makes a real Apple Mac superior to any hacked x86 generic Mac.

The guy who was the principle hacker (who shall remain nameless and shall not be linked to on this forum) has basically fallen off of the face of the earth. a lot of people have wondered where he went...

yellow · May 17, 2006, 03:18 PM

I don't want to argue with you about how you interprted my posts.

Pooldraft · 03:42 PM

Just another reason to stick with the PPC version of OSX. Also so much for the OSS community. Thanks Apple you just stated the obvious, money always comes first.

Sorry for agreeing with another human being. Next time I will not show my support.

yellow · May 17, 2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooldraft

Just another reason to stick with the PPC version of OSX. Also so much for the OSS community. Thanks Apple you just stated the obvious, money always comes first.

I thought Arn's post pretty much covered that..

Check it out, post #18.

http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.p...d&cid=15351035

ChrisA · May 17, 2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

I though the Kernel was based on the opne FreeBSD...

It is. BSD was ported by Next to use the Mach micro-kernel. Both Mach and BSD UNIX are open source. OSX uses both. However the license the BSD uses is not restrictive like GNU's GPL. A BSD style license allows any use whatsoever, even inclusion in comercial closed source software, just so long as the University of California gets credit and nt held liable for bugs. GPL required you to give away the source code in the same manner that you got it.

All open source licenses are not alike. BSD allows you to re-sell the software without giving out the source. I for one would never contribute un-paid work to a BSD project because it allows someone else to profet by my contribution. GPL requires that if I give it away free and you have it then you must also give it away free, Apple has avioded the GPL licenses where it can.

thejadedmonkey · May 17, 2006, 04:05 PM

Sure they can do what they want with it, but it just feels like...wrong, I couldn't explain it any better. It's like stealing candy from a baby. I'd never even bother hacking the kernel, or whatever it is that people do, but just knowing that I could if I needed to is nice to know.

ChrisA · May 17, 2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Mach is MOST DEFINITELY NOT BASED ON BSD'S KERNEL.
It's BASED on the kernel from NeXTSTEP, and borrows from the BSD kernel.

The above timeline is "off". Mach is developed at CMU (carnigie melon university) and BSD was relesed by the University of California at Berkly and based on work done by AT&T's Bell Labs. Both Mach and BSD pre-date Next. The people at Next rounded up what they though were great ideas of the time, UNIX, Mach, Object oriented C (I think it predates C++) and Display Postscript and built a computer around these existing ideas. Eventually this morphed into Mac OSX.

As far as OS related code goes I don'tthink anyhting has moved out of Next/Apple and into other projects. The direction is the other way.

May 17, 2006, 02:14 PM	#2
Mord macrumors 601 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: People's Republic of Yorkshire	this needs to be taken with a grain of salt, a pretty massive one, this just means that apple is adding closed sections to the kernel to stop OSx86 hacks. darwin will continue open source, however the version used in OS X will be modified. __________________ Consider the lily.

May 17, 2006, 02:29 PM	#3
greatdevourer macrumors 68000 Join Date: Aug 2005	If Apple are to release source just for Server, I wouldn't be suprised if it'll've been modified to the point where it doesn't work with Client, thus letting those who want suped up kernels do as they wish without the same level fear of piracy __________________ The Home Of Me - http://teh-eth.blogspot.com

May 17, 2006, 02:43 PM	#4
MacRumors macrumors bot Join Date: Apr 2001	x86 OS X Kernel Becomming Closed-Source? http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif According to an opinion piece by Tom Yager at Infoworld, Apple has closed the source of the Intel version of the Mac OS X kernel (called XNU) due to piracy concerns. While the rest of the underlying operating system of OS X (called Darwin) is still open-source, closing the kernel means less capability for pirates to hack OS X to run on non-Apple hardware, but also limits developers and power-users' ability to tweak their systems. Apple's Open-Darwin mailing list has an ongoing discussion in which some users point out that Apple has actually not released the XNU source for Intel since 10.4.3 or perhaps earlier. Therefore, it appears as though the facts of the article are not new, but rather are just now gaining press attention. Also has not officially commented on the future of XNU's source availability, and it appears most conclusions as to why the source has not been released is based on speculation rather than inside knowledge.

May 17, 2006, 02:46 PM	#5
Spanky Deluxe macrumors Demi-God Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London, UK	Hackers will still get around this somehow but it sure will make it harder for them. Besides which, how many 'power users' actually modify their kernel?? I mean seriously? __________________ "No, I'm from Iowa, I only work in outer space."

May 17, 2006, 02:46 PM	#6
MrCrowbar macrumors 68000 Join Date: Jan 2006	I though the Kernel was based on the opne FreeBSD... __________________ NOOBIE NOOBINSON Is it Funk? Is it Metal? Is it Electronica? Listen For yourself on youTube! Hamachingo Records

May 17, 2006, 02:09 PM	#1
MacBytes macrumors bot Join Date: Jul 2003	Apple closes darwin - No longer open source. http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif Category: Apple Software Link: Apple closes darwin - No longer open source. Description:: Apple is closing the Mac OS X kernel, Darwin, so that the source code is no longer accessible to developers. The reason stated are the numerous hacker attacks to the Mac OS X system. Posted on MacBytes.com Approved by Mudbug

May 17, 2006, 02:49 PM	#8
starflyer macrumors 6502 Join Date: Jan 2003	Maybe this has to do with the rumor that they are dropping Mach support...just a thought

May 17, 2006, 02:52 PM	#9
Warbrain macrumors 68040 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chicago, IL	I find no problem with this. Apple wants to control their OS, which is their property. They don't want OS X to be run on non-Apple PCs, and that's fine. __________________ WARBRAIN Twitter \| Blog MacBook, 2.1 GHz C2D, 4 GB RAM, 500 GB HDD iPhone 3G 8 GB

May 17, 2006, 03:08 PM	#17
Eraserhead Contributor Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oxford, UK	After reading about this to took a look at the hacker who originally hacked 10.4.4's website and he still doesn't seem to have hacked 10.4.6 also a search on [a pirating site] came up fruitless for Mac OS X 10.4.6, I think the hackers are having problems hacking OS X for Intel at the moment. I'm sure when Leapard comes out it'll be hacked but it seems unlikely that you'll be getting too many free updates of the software, which makes a real Apple Mac superior to any hacked x86 generic Mac. Last edited by Doctor Q : May 17, 2006 at 03:26 PM. Reason: name of pirating site removed

May 17, 2006, 03:18 PM	#20
yellow Demi-God (Moderator) Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I love you, food.	I don't want to argue with you about how you interprted my posts. __________________ Chameleon's Consignment Loft

May 17, 2006, 03:33 PM	#21
Pooldraft macrumors member Join Date: Sep 2004	Ppc Just another reason to stick with the PPC version of OSX. Also so much for the OSS community. Thanks Apple you just stated the obvious, money always comes first. Sorry for agreeing with another human being. Next time I will not show my support. Last edited by Pooldraft : May 17, 2006 at 03:42 PM.

May 17, 2006, 04:05 PM	#24
thejadedmonkey macrumors 68040 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Pa	Sure they can do what they want with it, but it just feels like...wrong, I couldn't explain it any better. It's like stealing candy from a baby. I'd never even bother hacking the kernel, or whatever it is that people do, but just knowing that I could if I needed to is nice to know. __________________ Mac Mini G4 • MacBook Pro • iPod Nano "Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement. - Mark Twain

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