English-only movement gains traction

[bowens]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ck=1&cset=true

Since the government has tried to stop groups like the Minutemen, it looks like local governments are on their own to try and stop illegal immigration. I'm glad to see that someone is taking this seriously. If you read the story, you'll see it's not so much about people speaking English but about stopping illegal immigration. If people want to come to this country, I'm all for it as long as they do it legally. I would never dream of moving to Mexico illegally and then expecting everyone to learn to speak English so we could communicate.

[clevin]

Originally Posted by bowens

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ck=1&cset=true

Since the government has tried to stop groups like the Minutemen, it looks like local governments are on their own to try and stop illegal immigration. I'm glad to see that someone is taking this seriously. If you read the story, you'll see it's not so much about people speaking English but about stopping illegal immigration. If people want to come to this country, I'm all for it as long as they do it legally. I would never dream of moving to Mexico illegally and then expecting everyone to learn to speak English so we could communicate.

did you watch "the day after tomorrow"? at that time, im sure there will be millions of Americans want to illegally cross into mexico, LOL,
the problem is there, everybody know it, but apparently the solution wasn't there yet.

[PlaceofDis]

want to copy the article all over since not all of us are registered?

[bowens]

Sorry, I just used BugMeNot to login the other day and I guess it remembered me.

Originally Posted by Chicago Tribune

It's official: English-only movement gains traction
Hispanic civil rights groups alarmed

By Howard Witt
Tribune senior correspondent
Published October 15, 2006

HOUSTON -- When Tim O'Hare drives through the aging north Dallas suburb of Farmers Branch where he serves as a city councilman, he sees signs of trouble everywhere. Property values are stagnating, he says. Crime is rising while schools are declining.

And too many people are speaking Spanish.

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"Our retail establishments are in deplorable shape--half of the businesses aren't filled, and the rest are filled with Spanish-speaking businesses," O'Hare said. "Our citizens are still majority non-Spanish speaking by far. Spanish probably will overtake the city if we don't do something about this."

The problems, O'Hare believes, are caused by undocumented immigrants. And the solution he's proposing, in the form of a city ordinance, would make English the official language of Farmers Branch and crack down hard on any landlord who rents to an illegal immigrant or any employer who hires one.

It's a position that places O'Hare in the vanguard of an English-only movement that is gaining new adherents in cities and states across the nation and causing growing alarm among Hispanic civil rights groups.

Frustrated by what they perceive as the federal government's failure to secure U.S. borders against undocumented immigrants, localities are taking matters into their hands: Twenty-seven states have passed laws declaring English to be their official language, four others are considering them, and more than a dozen towns and cities this year have either approved or are debating similar measures that seek to curtail bilingualism in official government documents and programs.

Even more are coupling the English-only proposals with measures to block illegal immigrants from access to housing, jobs and education. More than 30 municipalities like Farmers Branch have passed or are considering such laws, according to the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which favors curbs on immigration. Carpentersville in suburban Chicago is one of them.



Landlords and employers

The measures typically require landlords and employers to verify the legal status of every applicant for an apartment or a job or face stiff fines.

"Landlords and employers are the ones that are profiting as a result of illegal immigration," said Ira Mehlman, a federation spokesman. "Then those landlords and employers are committing everybody else in those communities to pay for education and health care and they are subjecting neighbors to houses that are filled with 20 and 30 people sometimes."

Many Hispanic leaders, however, perceive racism behind the new laws and foresee the backlash against undocumented immigrants spreading to Hispanic Americans, the nation's largest minority group.

"There is a very anti-immigrant sentiment attached to the English-only movement," said John Trasvina, interim president of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. "In a lot of the communities where this has come up, there is a tremendous amount of ill will that is raised by these ordinances."

Others fear a surge of racial profiling by landlords and employers, who may simply avoid dealing with any Spanish-speaking applicant rather than risk the penalties associated with illegal immigrants.

"Am I going to have to prove my citizenship to everyone just because I am Hispanic?" said Hector Flores, a Dallas resident and former president of the League of United Latin American Citizens. "What kind of America is this?"

Yet leaders of U.S. English Inc., a group founded in 1983 to lobby for "official English" laws, say they are not motivated by racism, and they lament that their ideas are now being combined with punitive measures targeting illegal immigrants.

"It is troubling, because it's usually the illegal immigration part that pulls down the whole argument," said Rob Toonkel, spokesman for the group.

Rather, Toonkel said, English-only laws are intended to encourage immigrants from all countries to quickly learn English and not rely on bilingual crutches--and the laws typically contain provisions for governments to continue to provide essential emergency and legal services in multiple languages.

"If you go into a government office and they say, `Here are some things in Spanish,' it's sending a very strong message to you that you don't have to learn English," Toonkel said. "It's not what the government should be doing."

Hispanic leaders say such laws are unnecessary because most immigrants understand they must master English to prosper in America. Moreover, they say, research shows that by the third generation, most children of immigrant families speak only English.



`You're not welcome'

Back in Farmers Branch, where 37 percent of the town's 26,487 residents are Hispanic, O'Hare sounds less concerned with encouraging Spanish speakers to learn English than with discouraging illegal immigrants from settling in town.

"English-only is one of the ways you can keep illegals from coming into your city and let them know `You're not welcome here,'" O'Hare said.

Other Farmers Branch leaders, however, don't see a need for O'Hare's plan.

Mayor Bob Phelps said that, contrary to O'Hare's assertions, crime is actually down, local schools are improving and property values have appreciated modestly. But because of the negative publicity over the proposed crackdown on illegal immigrants, Phelps said, at least one major corporation that was planning to locate its headquarters in Farmers Branch has changed its mind.

"This has created a lot of ill feelings," said Phelps. "We have no way of knowing who is legal or illegal. I know there are illegals here, but there's a lot of legals here too. You can't put the same tag on everybody."

But O'Hare, a personal injury lawyer, is undeterred--even as he advertises his legal services to Spanish-speakers with a "Se Habla Espanol" tagline.

"I don't see that as a conflict," O'Hare said. "There are people who are here legally that are more comfortable speaking Spanish. As long as we have somebody who can speak to them in Spanish, if that makes them more likely to come here, then I don't see what's wrong with that."

[leekohler]

People who want to come here need to do it legally yes, but if you think that "English only" is going to fix that, you're wrong. I'm sorry, but that's like putting a band aid on a gaping gunshot wound.

[bousozoku]

Originally Posted by bowens

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ck=1&cset=true

Since the government has tried to stop groups like the Minutemen, it looks like local governments are on their own to try and stop illegal immigration. I'm glad to see that someone is taking this seriously. If you read the story, you'll see it's not so much about people speaking English but about stopping illegal immigration. If people want to come to this country, I'm all for it as long as they do it legally. I would never dream of moving to Mexico illegally and then expecting everyone to learn to speak English so we could communicate.

I can understand a transition period for immigrants to learn English. There is no reason that people living in this country shouldn't know English, even though it's a complex language. It shouldn't have anything to do with illegal aliens. Living around the Orlando area, there have been a lot of issues with people here wanting the schools to teach in Spanish and wanting the police to speak Spanish. We have plenty of legal immigrants here who can avoid English because every store and bank bends over backwards to give them a crutch. I've seen many of them go out of their way to make it difficult for non-Spanish speakers. I'd probably find it pretty disconcerting to have someone talking to me in a language I didn't understand.

It's also interesting to me that some of these legal immigrants think that it's okay to support illegal aliens by protests but don't support them in learning English or getting their immigration problems fixed until it's news.

It's silly that the English-only movement is being combined with the fight against illegal aliens because, at least in Floriduh, one has nothing to do with the other.

[it5five]

Haha. So, O'Hare is pissed off about business offering spanish language documents to customers because he thinks it is a way of telling them they don't need to learn English. But look at his own business. He's a personal injury lawyer, which means he is scummy already, but then he turns around and offers his services in Spanish as well as English. I guess it's alright for him to do it but nobody else.

The problem with English-only legislation (besides it being racist) is that it doesn't keep out just undocumented immigrants, it keeps out EVERY immigrant. No immigrant (undocumented or legal) is going to want to settle in a community that clearly doesn't welcome them. In the long run, the English-only legislation is going to hurt the communities more than O'Hare thinks immigrants moving to his town will.

[Thanatoast]

I'm still not sure I buy the whole "illegal immigrant" rigamarole anyway. I don't see the logic behind "someone wants to come here, work, become prosperous and add to the economic and cultural value of my country? Hell no!" mind-set.

As for this guy, wouldn't he make more money (and be happier overall) trying to engage people as customers rather than getting his blood pressure up that their not "supposed" to be here?

[bousozoku]

Originally Posted by it5five

...
The problem with English-only legislation (besides it being racist) is that it doesn't keep out just undocumented immigrants, it keeps out EVERY immigrant. No immigrant (undocumented or legal) is going to want to settle in a community that clearly doesn't welcome them. In the long run, the English-only legislation is going to hurt the communities more than O'Hare thinks immigrants moving to his town will.

Racist? So all of these other countries which have national languages are racists? It's inappropriate for any country to expect their immigrants to learn their language and become fully integrated?

So, if you are dropped in Hungary or Lithuania or Nepal or Taiwan, you will expect to speak English and be treated equally?

[leekohler]

Originally Posted by bousozoku

Racist? So all of these other countries which have national languages are racists? It's inappropriate for any country to expect their immigrants to learn their language and become fully integrated?

So, if you are dropped in Hungary or Lithuania or Nepal or Taiwan, you will expect to speak English and be treated equally?

Um, just a question- do we really want to be like any of those countries? I certainly hope not.

[bousozoku]

Originally Posted by leekohler

Um, just a question- do we really want to be like any of those countries? I certainly hope not.

It might be a good change. I doubt most people, including me, would be truly happy living in Nepal but Hungary would probably be pretty nice. A U.S.A. that's more supportive of its people wouldn't be a bad thing.

[bowens]

Originally Posted by bousozoku

It might be a good change. I doubt most people, including me, would be truly happy living in Nepal but Hungary would probably be pretty nice. A U.S.A. that's more supportive of its people wouldn't be a bad thing.

Of it's legal people. I don't want the government to do one thing to support those who are here illegally. These people don't contribute to our economy by way of paying taxes. This is why we need the Fair Tax. It's a national sales tax. Everyone pays it whether legal or not. There would be no income taxes, just a national sales tax.

[mdntcallr]

Originally Posted by bowens

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ck=1&cset=true

Since the government has tried to stop groups like the Minutemen, it looks like local governments are on their own to try and stop illegal immigration. I'm glad to see that someone is taking this seriously. If you read the story, you'll see it's not so much about people speaking English but about stopping illegal immigration. If people want to come to this country, I'm all for it as long as they do it legally. I would never dream of moving to Mexico illegally and then expecting everyone to learn to speak English so we could communicate.

illegal immigration is illegal. but that doesnt mean immigration should be stopped. its generally good for the country. but people should be documented, kept track of and regulated. you know LIKE MOST OTHER CIVILIZED nations.

aside from that i also believe that people coming to USA should know english or learn it. do their best like immigrants of the past.

[mactastic]

Originally Posted by bowens

These people don't contribute to our economy by way of paying taxes.

False. You are taking the typical right-wing black-and-white look at this issue. While many of them may not pay INCOME tax (and many of them do with fake SSNs, making them taxed without receiving the benefits of being taxed), they all pay sales tax and all other locally collected fees.

I know, I know, it's easier to paint "these people" all with one nice broad brush. Problem is, it just ain't true...

[bousozoku]

Originally Posted by bowens

Of it's legal people. I don't want the government to do one thing to support those who are here illegally. These people don't contribute to our economy by way of paying taxes. This is why we need the Fair Tax. It's a national sales tax. Everyone pays it whether legal or not. There would be no income taxes, just a national sales tax.

Considering that we're both repeating the benefits of such a tax, I'm not sure I can say that it works. We don't pay state income tax in Floriduh and, if we did, we might have schools that weren't at the low end of the list.

The tourists who pay for us to live here don't gain anything from the tax. People here aren't any happier to see them and I don't know anyone who has ever thanked a tourist for keeping the residents' taxes low.

In fact, the illegal aliens in Floriduh pay this tax as well, so they are helping to pay for the schools and various other services that they might be receiving. Of course, they're mostly unprotected by the law and can be coerced to do almost anything through fear, including fear of deportation. You'd think that they'd write people in Mexico and tell them to avoid such harassment by emigrating from Mexico legally.

[bowens]

Originally Posted by bousozoku

Considering that we're both repeating the benefits of such a tax, I'm not sure I can say that it works. We don't pay state income tax in Floriduh and, if we did, we might have schools that weren't at the low end of the list.

The tourists who pay for us to live here don't gain anything from the tax. People here aren't any happier to see them and I don't know anyone who has ever thanked a tourist for keeping the residents' taxes low.

In fact, the illegal aliens in Floriduh pay this tax as well, so they are helping to pay for the schools and various other services that they might be receiving. Of course, they're mostly unprotected by the law and can be coerced to do almost anything through fear, including fear of deportation. You'd think that they'd write people in Mexico and tell them to avoid such harassment by emigrating from Mexico legally.

I like tourists coming to florida because of this fact. They pay taxes in our state and contribute to our economy. I'm not one for letting the government take money that I've earned. It is my money not their's. Some people act like it the government's money first and they just let us keep some of it. Like when someone gets a tax return they say "I'm getting $2000 back this year." You're getting $2000 that you earned that the government took from you. They're not giving you money. I would much rather have a consumption tax rather than get penalized for wanting to save money.

[bowens]

Originally Posted by mactastic

False. You are taking the typical right-wing black-and-white look at this issue. While many of them may not pay INCOME tax (and many of them do with fake SSNs, making them taxed without receiving the benefits of being taxed), they all pay sales tax and all other locally collected fees.

I know, I know, it's easier to paint "these people" all with one nice broad brush. Problem is, it just ain't true...

I know illegals pay sales tax but most do not pay any income tax at all. They still receive benifits that our tax dollars pay for. If an illegal goes into a hospital in need of medical attention they're not going to turn them away. But do you think most of them are going to pay anything? No.

I'm all for people coming to this country legally, but I don't think that someone who comes here breaking the law should have a leg-up on American citizens.

[mactastic]

Originally Posted by bowens

I know illegals pay sales tax but most do not pay any income tax at all.

Ok, at least you aknowlege the truth.

They still receive benifits that our tax dollars pay for. If an illegal goes into a hospital in need of medical attention they're not going to turn them away. But do you think most of them are going to pay anything? No.

Are the (legal) homeless any more likely to pay? If not, doesn't that tell you that this is just a symptom (of a lack of nationalized health care) than a problem in and of itself?

I'm all for people coming to this country legally, but I don't think that someone who comes here breaking the law should have a leg-up on American citizens.

Did I suggest that? All I'm pointing out is that saying immigrants pay no taxes is false.

[Ugg]

Originally Posted by bousozoku

Racist? So all of these other countries which have national languages are racists? It's inappropriate for any country to expect their immigrants to learn their language and become fully integrated?

So, if you are dropped in Hungary or Lithuania or Nepal or Taiwan, you will expect to speak English and be treated equally?

Hungary and Lithuania are multi-lingual countries. German, Serbo-Croatian and Romanian in Hungary and Polish, Russian and English in Lithuania. I can't speak for Nepal, but I'm pretty sure that English is acceptable at most places in Taiwan.

Unlike the US, many people have the ability and the desire to function in another language.

Your arguments are very similar to those voiced during the huge German and Irish waves of immigration 100 years ago. How many people in the US speak Irish or German now? Yeah, I thought so, only the ones who've learned it at school.

My mother's family is a case in point. Her great-grandparents emigrated from Finland. They settled in an area where the majority of immigrants were Finnish and had no need to speak English on a daily basis. My mother didn't learn English until she went to school at the age of five although her mother attended English language schools. My mother can understand Finnish now but can't speak or write or read it. I know only a few words and phrases.

The world would be better off if Americans weren't so phobic when it comes to understanding a language other than English.

Do you speak any languages?

[bousozoku]

Originally Posted by Ugg

...
Do you speak any languages?

I do okay in 10 or so.

[KingYaba]

Originally Posted by bowens

Since the government has tried to stop groups like the Minutemen,

The Minutemen project is an embarrassment to our elected officials. It points right in their face that they have failed.

Originally Posted by bowens

it looks like local governments are on their own to try and stop illegal immigration. I'm glad to see that someone is taking this seriously.

Farmersbranch down here in the DFW are about to take on action as reported a few months back. Caught a lot of heat, especially charges of racism.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...D8JOEHJ80.html

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15364287.htm

http://www.supportfarmersbranch.com/

[xsedrinam]

Originally Posted by bowens

I know illegals pay sales tax but most do not pay any income tax.

Nor do a large percentage of contractors who hire them. And those who are caught and slapped on the wrist would rather pay the $1000 fine and go on with their business, including hiring illegals. Which is the greater sin?

Originally Posted by bowens

I'm all for people coming to this country legally, but I don't think that someone who comes here breaking the law should have a leg-up on American citizens.

What would you suggest to improve the sluggish and partial process we presently have with immigration?

[Ugg]

Originally Posted by bousozoku

I do okay in 10 or so.

Cool.

Now, please explain to me why you think that recent immigrants from south of the Rio Grande will never learn English. What about your forebears? How long did it take before they were "fully" integrated (whatever that means)?

Does it mean giving up their religion (most are catholic), stop eating the foods they are accustomed to? Please explain.

[yg17]

Frankly, I'm glad the illegals don't pay income tax. We need fewer people paying it....imagine how many more bombs Bush would drop if the illegals paid income tax and the govt could afford more

[pseudobrit]

Originally Posted by bowens

I know illegals pay sales tax but most do not pay any income tax at all. They still receive benifits that our tax dollars pay for.

Illegal immigrants pay billions in FICA taxes every year with fake numbers and help keep Social Security solvent because they'll never be able to claim for benefits.

This was discussed in detail here some months ago.