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Old Nov 23, 2006, 12:20 AM   #101
cyberone
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colligan:

I went through 8 - eight - treo 650, because the hardware quality was so poor, not to mention the constant resets.

now, imagine, i have a phone without a reset button. no, its not a palm device.

and i bet the iphone wont have a reset button.

your phones were decent - compared to the competition - three years ago with the announcement of the 650.

others have long overtaken you. and you have no answer.

I bet you cant wait to see that iphone and realize what you've all missed.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 12:23 AM   #102
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You took the words right out of my mouth.

I remember when Napster and Rio laughed at the iPod and iTunes, and 5 years later.
The difference? For all intents and purposes the iPhone is a toy. phone + music. there is nothing wrong with catering to the average consumer. But the simple fact is businesses will not give it even a half second thought before they move on. Yes admittedly we have yet to see the final specs and features but without a touch screen and without a thumb keyboard the business world will pat Apple on the head, tell them that "awww isn't that cute", and walk away. Its not a business tool its a consumer product. A product that will sell like mad in traditional phone vs. iPhone markets but Blackberrry/Treo vs. iPhone? Not a chance in [bleep].

PS- That being said I WANT to be proven wrong. I want Apple to provide an expierence that covers music\contacts\calendar\todo\e-mail all in one sexy device but watching Apple over the years I've lost faith they they will try anything daring. Anything that really does take on the big guys. I'm willing to bet that whatever is released will be music\phone and if you are REALLY lucky limited calendar\contacts with no way to imput info. Prove me wrong Apple. Please.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 12:40 AM   #103
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the iphone will beat treo out
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 12:53 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by connorhays View Post
the iphone will beat treo out
i buy iphones for the whole family if they com with a full keyboard version.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 02:08 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by SiliconAddict View Post
The difference? For all intents and purposes the iPhone is a toy... Its not a business tool its a consumer product. A product that will sell like mad in traditional phone vs. iPhone markets but Blackberrry/Treo vs. iPhone? Not a chance in [bleep].

PS- That being said I WANT to be proven wrong. I want Apple to provide an expierence that covers music\contacts\calendar\todo\e-mail all in one sexy device but watching Apple over the years I've lost faith they they will try anything daring. Anything that really does take on the big guys. I'm willing to bet that whatever is released will be music\phone and if you are REALLY lucky limited calendar\contacts with no way to imput info. Prove me wrong Apple. Please.
Excellent and poignantly expressed points. The first iPhone, if/when is materializes might most likely be a phone v iPhone scenario competing against something like Sony's W950i.

It would definitely be awesome if Apple could get the users to drop their CrackBerries for something more wholesome. j/k

P.S. It's been a while since I've posted, so please forgive my late interjection into the middle of this conversation.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 05:43 AM   #106
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I personally don't see why Palm would actually be concerned about an iPhone anyway. It'll be a product targeted towards the consumer market, not the business market.

Palm's main market these days looks to be corporate, and their main competitor must surely be RIM. If you look at how many corporations (and public bodies, like local councils) are providing their employees with Blackberries, not Treos, that must be concerning for Palm.

I've never been in the sort of job where my employer would provide me with a Crackberry, but push-email seems to have taken off at a corporate level in a big way.

Incidentally, I just bought a Treo for my personal organisation and I love it (my last PalmOS device was an IBM C3). I'm sure Apple isn't interested in this though. The first iPhone will integrate the iTunes/phone experience, and also give slightly extended functionality to accessing Address Book. I also predict it'll have some sort of 'menu' button like the Apple Remote
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 06:14 AM   #107
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I personally don't see why Palm would actually be concerned about an iPhone anyway. It'll be a product targeted towards the consumer market, not the business market.

Palm's main market these days looks to be corporate, and their main competitor must surely be RIM. If you look at how many corporations (and public bodies, like local councils) are providing their employees with Blackberries, not Treos, that must be concerning for Palm.

I've never been in the sort of job where my employer would provide me with a Crackberry, but push-email seems to have taken off at a corporate level in a big way.

Incidentally, I just bought a Treo for my personal organisation and I love it (my last PalmOS device was an IBM C3). I'm sure Apple isn't interested in this though. The first iPhone will integrate the iTunes/phone experience, and also give slightly extended functionality to accessing Address Book. I also predict it'll have some sort of 'menu' button like the Apple Remote
Well, I've recently heard some speculation about a smart device from Apple to go along with the consumer device and if Palm is hearing the same whispers, I'd think it would be a bit concerning. However, Palm just introduced the Treo 680p, so it may not matter as much, once that has been deployed on various carriers' networks.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 06:44 AM   #108
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PalmOS

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Originally Posted by bousozoku View Post
Well, I've recently heard some speculation about a smart device from Apple to go along with the consumer device and if Palm is hearing the same whispers, I'd think it would be a bit concerning. However, Palm just introduced the Treo 680p, so it may not matter as much, once that has been deployed on various carriers' networks.
Yeah, I have too, but I don't buy it, really. If you look at Apple's products aimed at professionals/businesses, they're exclusively either Macs or software/software houses they've acquired. I don't think Apple is likely to break with the success it has had offering consumer hardware like the iPod. The iTV will follow in that tradition.

For the record, I really like PalmOS. It does what it's supposed to do very well. What concerns me is the way the companies (or have they reamalgamated now?) are being led in a strange direction - the move to Windows Mobile looks to me like Palm/Palmsource trying to hedge their bets rather than properly marketing what they have had going for them all these years. Time will tell whether it's a good business decision, and whether the PalmOS survives at all. I, for one, hope that it does.

If I remember correctly, Palm software and products were originally developed by a group of ex-Apple employees, weren't they? I think they're the same faction that struck out for a bit by starting Handspring (later brought back into the fold).
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 07:00 AM   #109
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Yeah, I have too, but I don't buy it, really. If you look at Apple's products aimed at professionals/businesses, they're exclusively either Macs or software/software houses they've acquired. I don't think Apple is likely to break with the success it has had offering consumer hardware like the iPod. The iTV will follow in that tradition.

For the record, I really like PalmOS. It does what it's supposed to do very well. What concerns me is the way the companies (or have they reamalgamated now?) are being led in a strange direction - the move to Windows Mobile looks to me like Palm/Palmsource trying to hedge their bets rather than properly marketing what they have had going for them all these years. Time will tell whether it's a good business decision, and whether the PalmOS survives at all. I, for one, hope that it does.

If I remember correctly, Palm software and products were originally developed by a group of ex-Apple employees, weren't they? I think they're the same faction that struck out for a bit by starting Handspring (later brought back into the fold).
I like PalmOS too, though I cannot decide on a device to replace my Handspring Visor Deluxe. I wanted the Treo 700p but it's too expensive. The 680p looks a better price but still a bit expensive and out of sync with my phone timeframe. A scratch-and-dent Tungsten T|X looks good, though.

As far as I know, the people who started Palm (and later, Handspring), Jeff Hawkins and Donna Dubinsky, didn't work for Apple. However, I've seen some people who credit Trip Hawkins, but he was the man who started Electronic Arts and he did work for Apple. I expect that when the Newton team was disbanded, they went to Palm or Handspring.

The WinCE, errr Mobile...something Pocket something else versions are designed for complete compatibility but have been said to lack certain things that the PalmOS versions have--and vice versa, I suppose.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 07:16 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Palm's Colligan View Post
"We've learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to make a decent phone,'' he said. "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in.''
I do see what he's getting at there, Apple haven't done a portable device that can stand on its own in several years now. The iPod arrangement works so well because much of the dirty work was offloaded to the host computer.

A lot could depend on how much Apple learned from what Newton got right and wrong, and how much knowledge disappeared (or didn't) with its retirement.
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From The Desk Of Steve Jobs:
Attachment 62559
OK, now seeing that creeped me out. I need to turn that chart into a font.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 08:30 AM   #111
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Look to an Apple Rim product

A friend of mine heard from someone who works at Rim that they and Apple are working on a phone! If I thoght that this news would do anything to Apple or Rim stock, I would not be telling you. I already own Apple and cannot see Rim's advancing any more than a few points on the news.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 09:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by RichP View Post


The industry will change. MS will release the "Pune" in 3 years to kill iPhone. In brown.



Should that not be PRUNE?


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Old Nov 23, 2006, 10:05 AM   #113
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A friend of mine heard from someone who works at Rim that they and Apple are working on a phone! If I thoght that this news would do anything to Apple or Rim stock, I would not be telling you. I already own Apple and cannot see Rim's advancing any more than a few points on the news.
My future wife's ( who I don't know yet ) cat said Apple would be buying a stake in Symbian and slapping an OSX like interface theme on it.

Oh, that would be so good, if they did - using the #1 Smartphone OS in the world.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 10:47 AM   #114
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My future wife's (who I don't know yet) cat said
Did the cat also happen to take any photos of unreleased products in elevators?
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 11:49 AM   #115
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Did the cat also happen to take any photos of unreleased products in elevators?

Wow. How did you guess?

The pictures were taken using the camera on the actual Apple device.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 12:19 PM   #116
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I already own Apple and cannot see Rim's advancing any more than a few points on the news.
You own Apple do you? My! You've kept a very low profile!
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 12:40 PM   #117
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You own Apple do you? My! You've kept a very low profile!
OMG STEVE IS HERE!!!

Besides that he probably is, good one geese.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 01:05 PM   #118
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Apple learned that with their old music player, you know the one before the iPod, oh wait there wasn't one...
Oh yah, there was one. It was a CD player that was soooo bad hardy a soul bought it and it's barely remembered. I think it happened while Steve was at Next abd the idjuts were in control of of Apple. It may have set a record for a short lifespan, not counting Microsoft's vaporware that was never spawned.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 01:46 PM   #119
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Oh yah, there was one. It was a CD player that was soooo bad hardy a soul bought it and it's barely remembered. I think it happened while Steve was at Next abd the idjuts were in control of of Apple. It may have set a record for a short lifespan, not counting Microsoft's vaporware that was never spawned.
o.O Mactracker has no information on this. Do you have links? I would be very interested in seeing a pict of it.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 01:54 PM   #120
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o.O Mactracker has no information on this. Do you have links? I would be very interested in seeing a pict of it.
The product was called PowerCD.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 01:57 PM   #121
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In looking over all the ideas generated in this thread and all the trends going on in the world, I'm lead to wonder if a consumer iPhone makes as much sense as it would seem to at first blush. Sure, the numbers can be great, but the profit potential is nearly nil.

Hasn't the consumer iPhone by now become a commodity product? More features are being tucked in rather then reducing the cost further and the base cost of contracts are at an all time low. I don't think it would be wise for Apple or anyone else to enter a relatively mature commodity market.

RIM has mapped out a good chunk of the business market, but it still is vulnerable. But is the business market alone worth the risk at this point?

I suspect that Apple's stragegy is to leverage off the iPod market base in such a way that it becomes an easy choice to buy the new iPhone. For example, many of the newest cars will have a place to integrate the iPod into the sound system. Aircraft companies are making a similar provision for the audio AND the video. Tons of other manufacturers have made in-home equipment to hold and access the information stored in the iPod.

Imagine, if you will, the new iPhone nesting in all them iPod-friendly ports. In the car, it becomes a hands free cell phone with voice recognition dialing and a high-quality speakerphone (aka, the car's sound system). Now imagine either a business person using the system as he cruises between appointments, or a group of teens using it as they cruise the streets on a Friday night. Both productive for one and way cool for the other group.

All of the above done without adding much at all to a basic phone/iPod, just the pure iPod base being leveraged. Now add a few user interface features and a couple of bells and whistles to appeal to a broad range of users and you hit the ground running.

It's the more specific user related want list that next needs to be addressed and that's where it gets dicey. That might be best marketed as additional features that could be added as needed.

For example, not everyone needs GPS. However, let's go back to the automobile with the iPod port in the dash. Now using the new iPhone with the GPS option, a person can travel to an unfamiliar place with ease. They may not have bought the GPS option in the beginning, but they bought the ability to add the option when they made their decision. It's similar to computers in this regard. Oftem a computer isn't purchased with the full load of RAM but a computer that can't be expanded has a harder go of it even if it is superior... i.e. the history of the early Mac.

A good camera phone with some image stabilization would serve a lot of people. Would it be better as an option that might bulk up the phone a little but could be slipped on and off as needed?

However apple does the iPhone it will need to integrate it into the existing iPod port structure for maximum penetration right out of the gate. And then, let's not forget the soon-to-be-released iTV. How might that integrate a phone's utility?

I hinestly can't imagine a good answer to that last question, but my mind is still reeling with the unanswered question of why Steve would pre-announce a product after not doing so since 1983.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 02:10 PM   #122
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I've been holding off on the smart phone thing until Apple comes up with something that makes sense. I've tried palm and windows mobile phones and both are so clunky. I'm sure I could reasonably learn their quirks and incorporate them into my life, but I don't want to. I just want it to do what it's supposed to and get out of my way, just like my macs and my ipod. The "solutions" out there now force you to do it their way.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 02:36 PM   #123
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Very astute commentary

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Originally Posted by rikers_mailbox View Post
Apple doesn't need to deliver a revolutionary phone-like device to grab marketshare. It's more about integrating a device within the system... and that is something Apple is good at.

Phones, new features, and additional functionality are a dime-a-dozen. New bells and whistles are added all the time, that's not what the market needs. Someone (hopefully Apple!) needs to take some of these advancements and deliver a products that integrates them in a logical and intuative way.
I second this insight. The market has been exposed to the gimmicks and now that the package has worn thin they are looking for an intuitive, durable and reliable phone that has some features you'd expect in a computer but mostly a phone that can be used with any carrier and doesn't need to be updated every 9 months.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 03:48 PM   #124
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Oh yah, there was one. It was a CD player that was soooo bad hardy a soul bought it and it's barely remembered. I think it happened while Steve was at Next abd the idjuts were in control of of Apple. It may have set a record for a short lifespan, not counting Microsoft's vaporware that was never spawned.
Someone who worked across the aisle from me had a PowerCD connected to his Mac and it was really nice, but it was way too expensive. Then again, you could say that about any of the equipment at the time. It's become much better but the value is often not apparent to the majority of the people.
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Old Nov 23, 2006, 04:12 PM   #125
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Someone who worked across the aisle from me had a PowerCD connected to his Mac and it was really nice, but it was way too expensive. Then again, you could say that about any of the equipment at the time. It's become much better but the value is often not apparent to the majority of the people.
If I remember right, when a person removed the PowerCD from its stand to listen to the music on the run it failed to give good performance. Apple forgot to include any buffer memory and skips were more the event then not. At the time, less expenisive protable CD players had such buffer memory, so it was a real dumb move on Apple's part.
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