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Old May 8, 2003, 11:06 AM   #1
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Panther Details?

LoopRumors summarizes a list of improvements that are coming to Panther.

New information appears to be Document control in the Dock (save, print, close), Quicktime 6.5, "Advanced Mouse Support" (3rd Party Mice with 2/3 buttons), and Software Update keeping track of one-click purchases.
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Old May 8, 2003, 11:16 AM   #2
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With a new Mac purchase in sight for me this article at Loop Rumors coupled with possible 970 Macs is making me drool.

At the end of this year I could have a Mac with no M$ software on it, not because I'm a Mac evangelist but because Apple is providing a better choice.

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Old May 8, 2003, 11:31 AM   #3
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It all sounds made up to me. Surely everything said here has been said before in one form or another on another site? There is really nothing new said here and anything there is is either derived from a previous rumor or simple obvious.
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Old May 8, 2003, 11:32 AM   #4
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much of it is a summary of previous rumors.

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Old May 8, 2003, 11:41 AM   #5
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a spreadsheet/database application

What's that?

I know spreadsheet applications (which sometimes can act as database table filling/defining apps). And I know database applications.

If it really is what it says, that would be revolutionary concept. But where it leaves Filemaker then?
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Old May 8, 2003, 12:04 PM   #6
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That was pretty weak.. We can make better stuff up, right? :-)

""
Panther will include a filesystem similar to the Beos filesystem. Featuring extended meta-data and instant search. You will be able to make "smart folders" in the finder, similar to how you can make smart playlists in iTunes. Labels will stay dead, but you'll be able to easily assign mini-icons to files and directories.

Mail will have a similar "smart" feauture, enabling you to quickly see all important mail, all unread mail, mail coming from a certain group in your addressbook,..

The unix side will be updated. Latest versions of perl, ruby and python. Adding a nice library to access applescript and objective-c functions. PB and IB will be updated for it too, making it easy for developers to make/port graphical perl/python/ruby programs. Cups will be configured so you can easily print to windows-networked printers.
"""
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Old May 8, 2003, 01:36 PM   #7
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Details?

That's a pretty weak report after promising 'details' for the past few days. The only things on there that I hadn't read about somewhere else are the three button mouse support built in (big f'n deal) and the improved software update, which sounds plausible, but only mildly interesting.

No real details about piles. No details about Safari. Not much on the Dock.

Weak.











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Old May 8, 2003, 01:42 PM   #8
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"64-bit optimized"

I'm also tired of hearing all these rumors about Panther being "64-bit optimized." Apparently, a lot of folks don't know what "64-bit" means.

I'll tell you what it doesn't mean: a magical speed increase. (That is, unless Apple's going to need ultra-precise floating point numbers for Panther's new features. )

Please, let's stop talking about "optimizing" for 64-bit and waiting for the "leap" to 64-bit -- as a developer, I know it only makes a difference for programs that could use the extra precision (we're talking stuff like Mathematica and 3D renderers -- but not 3D games). And since [I believe that] the 970 merely extends the current PowerPC instruction set, it should already be binary-compatible (even recomplilation is unnecessary -- there really is no such thing as "recompiling for 64-bit" in most cases).

Just thought I'd get that off my chest.
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Old May 8, 2003, 01:52 PM   #9
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Re: Details?

Quote:
Originally posted by iSmell
The only things on there that I hadn't read about somewhere else are the three button mouse support built in (big f'n deal)
There is nothing new about three button mice support. Its already supported on a "per-application" basis. Try middle clicking a link in Safari to see this.

As for the person who mentioned "smart folders." I'm really hoping we get a feature like this. It would probably be the most useful feature added to Mac OS in a long time. I think it was originally promised back in Copland though?
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Old May 8, 2003, 02:07 PM   #10
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Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by PaisanoMan

Please, let's stop talking about "optimizing" for 64-bit and waiting for the "leap" to 64-bit -- as a developer, I know it only makes a difference for programs that could use the extra precision (we're talking stuff like Mathematica and 3D renderers -- but not 3D games). And since [I believe that] the 970 merely extends the current PowerPC instruction set, it should already be binary-compatible (even recomplilation is unnecessary -- there really is no such thing as "recompiling for 64-bit" in most cases).
It also gives us a 64-bit address bus so we can have 2^63 (or 2^64 maybe) bytes of memory in theory at least. The current G4 chips have a 36-bit address bus as I understand it which allows a huge bit more memory than 2Gigs but some of the Apple software (or hardware) does not seem to support this. Current Intel chips also have 36-bit address busses.
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Old May 8, 2003, 02:30 PM   #11
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How will "pile" work?

I've always wondered about how Pile will work.
If it works like the flash previously posted, 20 files in a pile will go beyond the top of the screen.
40 files will probably totally occupy a 20" monitor...
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Old May 8, 2003, 02:52 PM   #12
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Re: Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by iJed
It also gives us a 64-bit address bus so we can have 2^63 (or 2^64 maybe) bytes of memory in theory at least. The current G4 chips have a 36-bit address bus as I understand it which allows a huge bit more memory than 2Gigs but some of the Apple software (or hardware) does not seem to support this. Current Intel chips also have 36-bit address busses.
I think you mean the P4 has this I think the Intel 64 bit chip already has this.
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Old May 8, 2003, 03:26 PM   #13
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"64-bit optimized"

Yes, the posts about 64-bit miracles are just a bit old. Yes, most folks don't understand what 64-bit really does. But then the posts where someone explains yet one more time what 64-bit does provide are just as tired.

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Old May 8, 2003, 05:05 PM   #14
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Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by PaisanoMan
I'm also tired of hearing all these rumors about Panther being "64-bit optimized." Apparently, a lot of folks don't know what "64-bit" means.
I have some idea what "64-bit" means, and I also understand that having the OS being 64-bit optimized doesn't mean that it will run magically faster. But, as I understand it, the distinction at work here is that the OS will run slower if it is designed to run on a strictly 32-bit processor, but has only had the necessary minor changes to allow it to function on a 64-bit processor. So, 64-bit optimization should bring the system performance up to what it should be. (Note that, given what we've heard, 10.2 will run faster on a 970 than a G4, even though it's not 'optimized'.)
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Old May 8, 2003, 05:05 PM   #15
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Re: Re: Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by MrMacman

Quote:

Originally posted by iJed
It also gives us a 64-bit address bus so we can have 2^63 (or 2^64 maybe) bytes of memory in theory at least. The current G4 chips have a 36-bit address bus as I understand it which allows a huge bit more memory than 2Gigs but some of the Apple software (or hardware) does not seem to support this. Current Intel chips also have 36-bit address busses.
I think you mean the P4 has this I think the Intel 64 bit chip already has this.
The P4 and G4 chips both can access 36-bit memory addresses. However, doing so is fairly clunky and inefficient relative to a "true" 64-bit processor (it is intended as a kludge for those situations where you absolutely, positively need more than 2GB addressing space, not as a day-to-day usage hack).

OS X dos not support 36-bit memory addresses, and I believe that the Mac memory controllers do not allow for >2GB of memory in any case either.

There are, however, Xeon and P4 systems which can be purchased with >2GB memory, and software to support 36-bit memory addresses. These >2GB memory machines do not use run-of-the-mill memory controllers either; the systems themselves are significantly more expensive before even adding the memory itself. Properly handling 36-bit addresses is not cheap or easy.
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Old May 8, 2003, 05:52 PM   #16
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ASSUMING THE LOOP RUMORS POST TO BE TRUE, I SUBMIT THE FOLLOWING...

System-wide metal- I hate Metal

Flatter Aqua- I hate the new iTunes icons. the 3d effect is much better. The new style looks too cartoon-ish

Improved Dock- OK, but nothing too exciting

Piles- Useless (to me, anyway)

iChat 2.0- I'm looking for better profile and away message support. Dare I say more like AOL's AIM

QuickTime 6.5- Cool, as long as I can download it for free. ( I just paid for QT pro last month)

Safari 1.0- Nice, but still way too much metal (see above).

iWorks- I just got M$ Office for free. It's herisy, but its good enough.

Advanced Mouse Support Built-in- I have no problem with my brand new Kensington 3 button with Jaguar. YAWN.

Advanced Software Update- Nice, I guess.

64-Bit Support- This may come in handy when I get a Power Mac next year.

To summerize- There is no way I'm paying 70$ (student discount) for this. Its not worth it. Hell that's 7 CD's at the iTunes Music Store. I'd much rather do that then spend the $ on an interface I can't stand looking at. I really hate the metal interface.
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Last edited by Wonder Boy; May 9, 2003 at 12:56 AM.
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Old May 8, 2003, 06:17 PM   #17
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Wonder Boy, your comments might be valid, if anybody actually believed what Loop Rumors was saying is true.
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Old May 8, 2003, 06:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by richard5mith
Wonder Boy, your comments might be valid, if anybody actually believed what Loop Rumors was saying is true.

Touche.
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Old May 8, 2003, 07:13 PM   #19
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its good that people dont really understand what 64 bit gives you. It means joe public is even less likely to and the will look at 64 bit compaired to 32 bit intel's and think that the 64 bit must be faster like they do now with the Mhz thing...well heres hoping. I remember when computers were judged by the bit's before the whole microsoft intel thing....C64, nes 8 bit, snes, amiga, ST, mega drive 16 bit, playstation 32 bit etc...no mention of mhz in any...god knows what speed the c64, amiga etc were.
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Old May 8, 2003, 08:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wonder Boy

To summerize- There is no way I'm paying 70$ (student discount) for this. Its not worth it. Hell that's 7 CD's at the iTunes Music Store. I'd much rather do that then spend the $ on an interface I can't stand looking at. I really hate the metal interface.
Well, you're assuming that these things that looprumors has listed are all there is (and that they are, in fact, true). I think that Apple is likely to give us enough under the hood in 10.3 to make it worth the upgrade, especially if you consider the fact that the purchase price of 10.3 also includes all of the 'free' updates that follow it, until you reach the next paid update, presumably 10.4. Now, if you only want it all at once, then wait until just before 10.4 comes out, and get 10.3, then you can get all of the 'free' updates at the same time.

(For the record, although I'm one who doesn't like to pay for things when I don't have to, it is amazing to me to think about the number of man-hours of work that must go into, for example, 10.2, 10.2.1, 10.2.2, and so on, and people expect this to be free. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Apple actually lost money on the OS, in general, and the cost that we have to pay is really meant to just minimize that loss.)
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Old May 8, 2003, 09:37 PM   #21
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Re: How will "pile" work?

Quote:
Originally posted by macdong
I've always wondered about how Pile will work.
If it works like the flash previously posted, 20 files in a pile will go beyond the top of the screen.
Thats not what would happen according to the patent. The folders would be scaled based on content. One would hope Apple is smart emough to make this dynamic and not a fix amount meaning if you have two folders next to each other and one has twenty files and the other two thousand that the visible difference would be horrific.
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Old May 8, 2003, 09:39 PM   #22
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Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by PaisanoMan
Please, let's stop talking about "optimizing" for 64-bit and waiting for the "leap" to 64-bit -- as a developer, I know it only makes a difference for programs that could use the extra precision (we're talking stuff like Mathematica and 3D renderers -- but not 3D games).
If what you say about 3D renderers being boosted by the leap to 64 bit then we can safely assume that Shake, Final Cut Pro and even iMovie will be the first Apple applications to be rewritten for these new processors. I realize that 3D rendering and 2D rendering are not exactly the same but both are just as demanding to the host hardware. A 64 bit OS might not make the hours of rendering into minutes but it will surely be a considerable improvement in comparison to the same application running in 32 bit mode.
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Old May 8, 2003, 11:31 PM   #23
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Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by PaisanoMan
I'm also tired of hearing all these rumors about Panther being "64-bit optimized." Apparently, a lot of folks don't know what "64-bit" means.

I'll tell you what it doesn't mean: a magical speed increase. (That is, unless Apple's going to need ultra-precise floating point numbers for Panther's new features. )

Please, let's stop talking about "optimizing" for 64-bit and waiting for the "leap" to 64-bit -- as a developer, I know it only makes a difference for programs that could use the extra precision (we're talking stuff like Mathematica and 3D renderers -- but not 3D games). And since [I believe that] the 970 merely extends the current PowerPC instruction set, it should already be binary-compatible (even recomplilation is unnecessary -- there really is no such thing as "recompiling for 64-bit" in most cases).

Just thought I'd get that off my chest.

We must live in different universes. 64bit not only affects mathematical operations but it increases the number of instructions, the register size and other things all these things will obviously mean a new optimization (just look at what Intel is doing with their P4 optimized compilers). Hell, it's a whole new architecture, both recompilation and optimization will offcourse yield significant performance enhancements.

Just by recompiling the OpenBSD kernel on my Athlon gives me 1.5-3% performance increase (that is w/o any optimization)

So take your crap and stuff it back into your chest,

Regards.
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Old May 9, 2003, 12:32 AM   #24
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bleh, looprumors is just pure speculation and guessing, not even worthy of being on Page 2
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Old May 9, 2003, 06:36 AM   #25
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Re: Re: "64-bit optimized"

Quote:
Originally posted by Sol
Shake, Final Cut Pro and even iMovie will be the first Apple applications to be rewritten for these new processors.
Can it be that Final Cut Pro and Shake are already recompiled for PPC970? They were released only recently.. Nextstep had support for fat binaries, maybe Macosx has it too? That way a 64bit optimized binary could already be in there
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