Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Current Events

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jul 16, 2003, 05:42 PM   #1
macfan
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Horrible incident in Santa Monica. At least 8 reported dead, many more injured.

Front page, CNN.
HERE.

It's less than a block from the Apple Store that just opened down there.
macfan is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2003, 06:02 PM   #2
G4scott
macrumors 68020
 
G4scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
This is a tragic accident, and I don't believe this was done on purpose...

It just goes to show that there are some people who should not be behind the wheel of a car. I see people do stupid things all the time, not because their jerks, but because they don't know what they're doing or what's going on... Just the other day, I saw a car almost get totaled by a fire truck, because the guy didn't see or hear the fire truck coming. You have to have been completely death and blind to not see the fire truck...

There are also many distractions that can lead to something like this. Cell phone use, screwing with the radio, etc.

We'll have to wait to see what the police report says about this...
__________________
Hook 'em Horns!
G4scott is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2003, 06:32 PM   #3
Doctor Q
Administrator
 
Doctor Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles
"This is the single most horrific traffic accident I have ever seen on my time here in Santa Monica." -- SANTA MONICA POLICE CHIEF JAMES BUTTS

The Santa Monica Farmers Market is 1/2 block from the Apple Store Third Street Promenade, the new store that opened in Santa Monica last Friday. The area of this incident/accident is just where 100s of us were waiting in line for the store opening.

By coincidence, I read an editorial this morning by a senior citizen who realized she had been unfit to drive for some time and was just plain lucky that she hadn't been in an accident or hurt anyone before she realized this and gave her car away. She said she's worried about all the other old and dangerous drivers still on the road. This 80+ year old man is certainly one of them.
__________________
Oh do pay attention 007. In the wrong hands, this 12-core Mac Pro with three 4K displays, FirePro graphics, and Thunderbolt 2 could be very dangerous.

Last edited by Doctor Q; Jul 16, 2003 at 06:59 PM.
Doctor Q is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2003, 08:05 PM   #4
jadariv
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
My office is here in Santa Monica. One of the people who works here just came in and he was down there. He said it was horrible.

As for the subject of his age. They have already talked to a number of people that say he was perfectly fine to drive. Completely coherent and sharp. And the blood tests show no alcohol or drugs.

And just for anyone passing judgement on older drivers. Teenagers, statistically, are the most dangerous drivers on the road by a long shot.
jadariv is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2003, 08:52 PM   #5
evoluzione
macrumors 68010
 
evoluzione's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: down the road, that's where i'll always be
Quote:
Originally posted by jadariv
And just for anyone passing judgement on older drivers. Teenagers, statistically, are the most dangerous drivers on the road by a long shot.
this is shocking, a very saddening tradegy for sure.

and yes i will pass judgement on older drivers, some (if not most), should NOT be on the roads. You just need to be able to react quickly, and the older you get, the less you are able to do this. I've seen more than my fair share of teenage drivers ending up in accidents, sometimes killing themselves so i agree with you and the statistics. still doesn't change the fact that the driving laws need to be enforced more, for real reasons not monetary reasons, and tests need to be a heck of a lot harder, and more frequent. there's some scary drivers on the roads, and not just the cabbies here in nyc. it amazes me how these people got their license. if they didn't, they should face jail time. simple as that. then maybe accidents like this could be avoided a lot more.
__________________

I am Hando Jin, Hang Wong's son...
evoluzione is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2003, 09:00 PM   #6
Sun Baked
macrumors G5
 
Sun Baked's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
There is always requiring the stupid/dangerous/multi-dui drivers to fill out an organ donor card before they're handed their license back.

And the final restriction -- it's for motorcycles only -- with a free pass to get around those nagging helmet laws.

At least that way there's a chance for them to give something back to society.
__________________
If you are the type of person who solves all their problems with a hammer, because it is the only tool in your toolbox. It would be wise of you to never get in an argument with a gunsmith.
Sun Baked is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2003, 10:56 PM   #7
Doctor Q
Administrator
 
Doctor Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles
I have an organ donor card but I drive safely. When my time comes, I hope I recognize when I'm no longer a safe driver.

I learned in further news reports that the man is 86 and he thinks he just pushed the wrong pedal (for 3 blocks!?) while trying to stop.
__________________
Oh do pay attention 007. In the wrong hands, this 12-core Mac Pro with three 4K displays, FirePro graphics, and Thunderbolt 2 could be very dangerous.
Doctor Q is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 12:04 AM   #8
janey
macrumors 603
 
janey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: sunny los angeles
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Q
The Santa Monica Farmers Market is 1/2 block from the Apple Store Third Street Promenade, the new store that opened in Santa Monica last Friday. The area of this incident/accident is just where 100s of us were waiting in line for the store opening.
uh i thought that the line was heading towards 2nd and Arizona, not 4th and Arizona...for the people to have been waiting in a line that slowly made its way to 4th and Arizona would mean that we'd be blocking the intersection...kinda...
nevertheless, this is a tragic story that MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. Dude...that guy was DRIVING at like 60+ mph for THREE blocks over children, adults, chairs, everything....how could he do that and still no be charged for any crime?!
aw god...i go there once in a while...what if i went today
__________________
iPad | 15" MacBook Pro | black (iPhone 3GS|MacBook) | Mac mini server
moof!

janey is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 12:20 AM   #9
Doctor Q
Administrator
 
Doctor Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles
He was going south on 4th Street and turned right (west) on Arizona, where the Farmer's Market is. He didn't stop as he passed 3rd street and 2nd street (where the line was). He finally stopped between 2nd Street and Ocean Avenue. His air bag deployed, which may have further confused him or made him unable to get his foot off the accelerator. Last November he passed a written driving test and an eye exam. He's aware of what happened and reportedly says he is very sorry.
__________________
Oh do pay attention 007. In the wrong hands, this 12-core Mac Pro with three 4K displays, FirePro graphics, and Thunderbolt 2 could be very dangerous.
Doctor Q is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 12:31 AM   #10
macktheknife
macrumors 6502a
 
macktheknife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Here's the story from LA Times:

Quote:
Driver Speeds Through Market; 8 Die
By Joel Rubin, Daren Briscoe and Mitchell Landsberg
Times Staff Writers

8:47 PM PDT, July 16, 2003

SANTA MONICA — An 86-year-old man drove his car the length of the Santa Monica Farmer's Market early Wednesday afternoon, apparently hitting freeway speeds as he plowed through a crowd of peak summer shoppers.

At least eight people were killed, one of them a 3-year-old child, as the driver sped for 2 1/2 blocks through a market renowned as one of the region's culinary treasures. In addition to the dead, nearly 50 people were hospitalized, 15 of them with critical injuries.

Police said the driver apparently had lost control of his car.

"His statement is, he possibly hit the gas instead of the brake," said Santa Monica Police Chief James T. Butts Jr. "He said he tried to brake, and he couldn't stop the vehicle."

Tests conducted immediately after the calamity showed that the driver, identified as George Russell Weller of Santa Monica, was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Investigators said they did not believe he had suffered any medical problem that might have caused him to lose control of his car.

Witnesses at the market, which attracts as many as 9,000 people every Wednesday, said Weller appeared in a trancelike state as he drove his red Buick LeSabre sedan west along Arizona Avenue between 4th and 2nd streets.

Bodies bounced off his hood; produce stands collapsed; boxes of fruit and vegetables tumbled in his wake. People who weren't hit could only watch in horror.

"I couldn't believe what I was seeing. He was hitting people and they were just flying," said Parker Hall, 35, a salesman who had stopped on 2nd and Arizona to have a look at the market. "You would think it would have slowed him down, but it didn't. When he hit someone, you could hear it, and it was just, `Boom! Boom! Boom!"'

By the time the car came to a halt between 2nd Street and Ocean Avenue, Hall said two or three people were splayed on the hood and windshield. A woman was trapped under the car, prompting bystanders to lift the front of the vehicle and pull her out. The street was strewn with the bodies of other victims, some apparently dead.

The hood of the 11-year-old Buick was mangled and dented. An apple core and two unmatched women's shoes lay atop its roof.

"It was gruesome," Hall said. "There was fruit everywhere, and they were covered with raspberries and other things." He said the crowd pulled the driver out of the car, and he "looked like he was in some kind of numb state. He wasn't freaking out. It's the weirdest thing I've ever seen in my life."

Another witness, Penny Tremper, 64, of San Luis Obispo, was working at a booth that sells jojoba oil when the car sped by. "I saw his face," she said. "He was determined. You could hear the engine roaring. The word that went through my mind was kamikaze. His eyes were wide and his hands were clenched on the wheel."

Police said the incident occurred at 1:47 p.m., just 13 minutes before the market was scheduled to close for the day. Butts said Weller had just left the post office and was heading west on Arizona when he spotted the farmer's market blocking his path. It was at that point that he apparently hit the gas instead of the brakes, Butts said.

Andy Fisher, 40, of Venice, said he saw the car accelerate as it crossed 4th Street. West of 4th, Arizona is closed off every Wednesday and Saturday for the produce market. The Wednesday market has a reputation as one of the best of its kind, and attracts a loyal crowd that includes chefs from many of the best restaurants in the Los Angeles area.

Fisher, who runs a nonprofit organization, Community Food Security Coalition, that promotes farmer's markets on a national level, estimated that the car was going 60 mph, a figure cited by other witnesses.

California Highway Patrol Commissioner Spike Helmick estimated that the car hit speeds as high as 80 mph.

Some shoppers said their first thought was that the car was engaging in a terrorist act. Julius Smith, a stock trader who lives in Santa Monica, said his immediate reaction was: "Oh my God, it's happening in Santa Monica!"

The market's manager, Laura Avery, said it had been a fairly typical day, perhaps a bit slower than usual. "I was standing there talking to one of the farmers," she said. "I heard this thing coming. It went right past us and we all ran after it. People were trying to get the license plate. Farmers were yelling `Get that guy, get that guy.'

But when we got there, it was just this old man sitting there in his car with an air bag blown up in his face, looking like he didn't know where he was. Then somebody said, `Oh my God, there's somebody under the car.' So everybody got together to try to move the car. There was this lady there just totally skinned and scraped. I think she was OK."

Neighbors on Weller's well-manicured street on the north side of Santa Monica described him as a kind, religious man with no history of erratic behavior. A former salesman, he and his wife, Harriet, a former teacher, have been married for 64 years, according to an interview the couple gave to National Public Radio several years ago. They are active members of the Brentwood Presbyterian church.

"Mr. Weller is an articulate, bright, concerned individual," said Herb Roney, who lives two doors down. "Of all the people who this could happen to, I can't believe it's him."

The incident seemed likely to add to an existing debate in Sacramento, the state capital, over licensing procedures for older drivers.

Armando Botello, a spokesman for the state Department of Motor Vehicles, said Weller passed both written and vision tests for his driver's license in November 2000. Because he showed no signs of eroding skills, he was not asked to take a driving test, Botello said.

After the crash, Weller was taken to Santa Monica-UCLA Medical Center, where he was examined, evaluated and released to Santa Monica Police, according to Dr. Lawrence Schecter.

Police questioned Weller, then released him. Slightly stooped and using a cane, he walked out of Santa Monica police headquarters with a grandson, another family member and an attorney.

Asked to comment, he looked at reporters and said "no" several times.

Later, attorney Vicky Podberesky said she would be representing Weller as needed along with associate James Bianco. "It appears to be a really tragic accident," Podberesky said. "It's not clear that there'll be any charges filed. It's just an investigation at this point."

Investigators with the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office were dispatched to the scene but prosecutors said no further action would be taken unless an arrest was made in the case.

Under California law, vehicular manslaughter is defined as killing someone with a vehicle while committing another crime, or while driving the vehicle in an unlawful manner.

But the deaths might not lead to charges if investigators determine that the crash was caused "by accident and misfortune."

Hospital tallies suggested at least 49 people were hospitalized, including eight airlifted to three public hospitals, UCLA-Harbor Medical Center, County-USC Medical Center and Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center.

The eight dead were not immediately identified. Avery said that she did not believe any of the dead or injured were farmers.
__________________
"We are repeatedly what we do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle

"Far too many Mac users walk about in a daze convinced that Steve Jobs is their friend." -- "Matsu"
macktheknife is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 06:35 AM   #11
eyelikeart
Moderator emeritus
 
eyelikeart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Metairie, LA
My god...I don't know who I feel worse for...

the guy driving or the victims...

eyelikeart is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 07:07 AM   #12
Mr. Anderson
Moderator emeritus
 
Mr. Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: VA
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Anderson
They had a picture of him on CNN.com....its really sad that all those people lost their lives and many more are hurt.

And they're thinking of prosecuting him - which at 86 doesn't seem all that feasible. What do you do for a 86 y.o.?



D
__________________
"Klaatu varada nikto!"
Mr. Anderson is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 09:24 AM   #13
phrancpharmD
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Historic Norcross
What a horrible tragedy! But the fact remains that following 16 to 24 year-olds, those over 65 are mosts likely to cause traffic fatalities. Even though this gentleman "passed" his eye exam and written exam in California three years ago, it is not difficult to conceive the MAJOR medical and psychological changes that can occur in the elderly in ONE year. It's controversial, but ANNUAL evaluation (ie DRIVING TEST) of those over 65 and between 16 and 21 years old should probably be mandatory. Per the US DOT and NHTSA websites:

"People 65 years and older represented 13 percent of the population in 1998 and 18 percent of motor vehicle deaths. By 2030, older drivers are expected to represent 20 percent of the population."


"People age 75 and older have more motor vehicle deaths per 100,000 people than other groups except people younger than 25. Per mile driven, drivers 75 years and older have higher rates of fatal motor vehicle crashes than drivers in other age groups except teenagers."

And check out the picture below for the neat inverse bell-shaped curve showing fatal crash involvement by age.

[IMG]this[/IMG]

More traffic safety data for elderly drivers can be found here and general traffic safety statistics for 1998 (the most recent year compiled, apparently) are in a PDF on this page.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
"Experience is not what happens to a man, it is what a man does with what happens to him."
- Aldous Huxley
"You don't observe well when you're being observed."
- Ken Kesey
phrancpharmD is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 11:13 AM   #14
MacManDan
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Truly a terrible accident! I wonder what will happen to this poor man .. will he be charged or not? It's a double-sided coin .. I'm sure he never would have done such a thing if he had the choice (the article portrays him as a kind man), but the fact of the matter is that he DID do it.. We will have to see.

phrancpharmD's graph was very interesting. I think that's amazing that someone 2 years younger than me is more than twice as likely to get in a fatal crash ..
MacManDan is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 11:38 AM   #15
agreenster
macrumors 68000
 
agreenster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Walt Disney Animation Studios
What a horrible accident. How sad for the parents who lost their toddlers, and just the mass carnage witnessed and experienced by all. Truly horrible.

But I must agree with those who say it could have been avoided. Where I live, I see the elderly almost cause an accident at least once a week. I always joke with my friends and say its going to be an epidemic someday, with all the baby-boomers approaching 60+, its only a matter of time before this is much more commonplace. Its sad. I only hope I will have the sense to stop driving beofre I kill someone at that age.

Im not sure if this is ethical (and God knows we dont need more laws), but maybe there should be a restriction placed that once a person passes the age of 80, they can no longer drive a vehicle. I mean, people under 16 cant, so why shouldnt a person over 80? Im sure there are people over 80 who can operate a vehicle with no problems, but I also know some 12 year olds who are better drivers than some 16 year olds. (especially those who grew up on farms, whove been driving a tractor for 5 years by the time they are 16)

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough.

Its still sad.
agreenster is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 11:43 AM   #16
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
The guy shouldn't have been driving anymore. My 94 yo great-uncle had 3 accidents this last year, the first two were minor, the last one totalled his car. Fortunately he wasn't hurt nor did he injure anyone else but he refused to give up his license, the police had to take it away from him. He is an amazingly active guy for 94 and is totally in posession of all his faculties but he's 94 and his reaction time is that of an 8 year old's.

The US is not doing enough to test older drivers. Insurance companies are reluctant to challenge them, politicians refuse to take on AARP, family members know that when licenses are revoked, they, the family will have to start shuttling the them around.

I hope that this tragedy renews discussion on this very serious issue.
Ugg is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 12:15 PM   #17
Doctor Q
Administrator
 
Doctor Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles
I'd like to see a second line on phrancpharmD's graph, for drivers talking on cell phones. Age (too young or too old), drugs and alcohol, cell phones, and even the weather all lead to increased accident rates.

California has enacted tough driving permit restrictions for young drivers, but yesterday a spokespeople said that giving more frequent driving tests to people over a certain age would be "age discrimination", as if any form of discrimination (meaning differentiating between one thing and another) is automatically wrong. Having laws reflect statistics about how age affects driving ability is no less fair than having life insurance rates reflect statistics about how age affects life expectancy.
__________________
Oh do pay attention 007. In the wrong hands, this 12-core Mac Pro with three 4K displays, FirePro graphics, and Thunderbolt 2 could be very dangerous.
Doctor Q is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 12:57 PM   #18
MacManDan
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Q
I'd like to see a second line on phrancpharmD's graph, for drivers talking on cell phones. Age (too young or too old), drugs and alcohol, cell phones, and even the weather all lead to increased accident rates.
This is true, but cell phones are actually over-rated in terms of causing accidents. Rubbernecking (looking around at accidents, other cars, etc while driving) is much more dangerous. As are kids in the backseat. Others on the list include changing the radio, and of course, being tired.

Here is only one study that refers to this

I think a better comparison to age would be a % of crashes with the leading cause cited as rubbernecking.
MacManDan is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 01:45 PM   #19
QCassidy352
macrumors G3
 
QCassidy352's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco
I just don't see the point in charging him... he's 86 years old, and you're gonna send him to prison?

The whole thing is just a horrible, horrible tragedy, and I have to believe that it was an accident. And if it was... really, what's the point in charging him with anything?
QCassidy352 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 01:52 PM   #20
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
Quote:
Originally posted by QCassidy352
I just don't see the point in charging him... he's 86 years old, and you're gonna send him to prison?

The whole thing is just a horrible, horrible tragedy, and I have to believe that it was an accident. And if it was... really, what's the point in charging him with anything?
There are alternatives to prison. Community service comes to mind as does financial restitution. He is old and he deserves some compassion but to let him off solely because of his age just isn't right. He should be charged. 9 people are dead because of his actions. It would also send a much needed message to older drivers.
Ugg is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 01:58 PM   #21
macktheknife
macrumors 6502a
 
macktheknife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Remember that the primary reason for teenagers getting into accidents is a lack of experience, while the primary reason for those in the +70 year-old age bracket getting into accidents is deterioration of motor skills. Thus, teenagers will eventually become better drivers with more experience, whereas those in the +70 year-old age bracket can only get worse.
__________________
"We are repeatedly what we do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle

"Far too many Mac users walk about in a daze convinced that Steve Jobs is their friend." -- "Matsu"
macktheknife is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 02:00 PM   #22
janey
macrumors 603
 
janey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: sunny los angeles
Quote:
Originally posted by Ugg
There are alternatives to prison. Community service comes to mind as does financial restitution. He is old and he deserves some compassion but to let him off solely because of his age just isn't right. He should be charged. 9 people are dead because of his actions. It would also send a much needed message to older drivers.
i think he deserves to die. dude...he killed NINE people and injured more than FIFTY

no, actually i think he deserves no compassion (and ibookin says torture is the answer)
__________________
iPad | 15" MacBook Pro | black (iPhone 3GS|MacBook) | Mac mini server
moof!

janey is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 02:12 PM   #23
QCassidy352
macrumors G3
 
QCassidy352's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco
Quote:
Originally posted by übergeek
i think he deserves to die. dude...he killed NINE people and injured more than FIFTY

no, actually i think he deserves no compassion (and ibookin says torture is the answer)
[the following is not a personal attack, but rather a comment about your opinion in this particular case...]

Your position makes me SICK. To know that opinion is actually held by people who seem quite intelligent.... well, to say that it sickens me isn't sufficient.

This was a tragic accident. What good does it do to make it 10 deaths instead of 9? How does that help anything? What happened was horrible, but let's not make it worse.

Vengence is WRONG. This is blood lust, pure and simple. Killing this man would help no one, serve nothing, and show brutality on the part of those who killed him, making them by far worse then him. His crime (unless something shocking comes up) was the result of senility, really bad reflexes, or just plain old panic and confusion. Yours would be one of total barbarism.
QCassidy352 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 02:16 PM   #24
Doctor Q
Administrator
 
Doctor Q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles
If I was Mr. Weller, I could think of no worse torture than knowing that I had killed people, especially the 3-year-old.

The law is the law. If he merely lost control and was not committing any crime at the time, the law seems to say that he is not guilty of involuntary manslaughter. I read that it is a typical reaction, after pressing the gas while thinking it is the brake, to keep pressing the gas trying to make the car stop.

If he had gone another block, he would have crossed Ocean Avenue and sailed off a cliff.
__________________
Oh do pay attention 007. In the wrong hands, this 12-core Mac Pro with three 4K displays, FirePro graphics, and Thunderbolt 2 could be very dangerous.
Doctor Q is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 17, 2003, 03:51 PM   #25
MacFan25
macrumors 68000
 
MacFan25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: USA
This really is a sad story. I feel very sorry for everyone involved - even the man who did this.

I think there needs to be better laws or better testing for older drivers. I realize some elderly are good drivers, but many of them aren't, and most probably don't need to be out driving in the first place.

__________________
Folding FAQ - Find out exactly what folding is and how to join MacRumors Team Folding!
MacFan25 is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Current Events

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Massacre in Santa Monica, CA DesertEagle Politics, Religion, Social Issues 84 Jun 11, 2013 07:22 PM
Redesigned and Expanded Third Street Promenade Apple Store Opens in Santa Monica, CA MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 116 Apr 1, 2013 09:10 AM
How is AT&T LTE L.A./Hollywood/ Santa Monica? sootie iPhone 40 Dec 21, 2012 04:36 PM
Anyone waiting L.A/ Santa Monica and la brea AT&T store? sootie iPhone Launch Meetups 2 Sep 20, 2012 12:50 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC